Exactly 165 years Ago, Christ Entered the Most Holy Place

[John317]

Also john317, if you will look at the earlier posts on this topic, you will see that I have given a list of New Testament texts which declare that Christ is at the right hand of God and has been there since His ascension. Look them up, please, then respond. I would appreciate it very much.

You will notice that this is what I wrote on the original post where you gave those texts:

Quote:

Virtually all the texts you give here tell us that Christ sat down at the right-hand of the throne of God. For sure, this did not occur in 1844 but happened fairly soon after Christ's ascension following His resurrection.

Could you explain how these verses contradict the SDA view of the Pre-advent Judgment? You might want to tell us what the SDA view is and then tell how these verses prove the SDA view to be in error.

I ask this because it's likely that your question is based on some significant misunderstandings of the 2300 day prophecy and the Investigative Judgment. I need to know how you understand it before I can answer your questions about reconciling the texts.

First study the following link: http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/27/27-23.htm

Of course Jesus Christ is at the right hand of God. He has been "at the right hand of God" since shortly after His ascension to the Father, just as Mark 16: 19 states. That fact does not come as a shock to Seventh-day Adventists.

What does it mean for Christ to be "at the right hand of God," and what do you believe is the relationship between that and Christ's entrance into the Most Holy Place 165 years ago?

[The Searcher]

Dear friends,

Sorry to be so long in responding; I am on our research vessel, and we are heading for port. Winding down an expedition requires much work, so I have been busy. We are currently about 700 nautical miles from Townsville, Australia. At our present course and speed, we should be in Monday the 2nd of November. I have been at sea for the last two months, and it will be pleasant to go home. It is Sabbath so I can take some time to respond.

First of all, I need to state that I believe that EGW was a prophet who was sent by God to keep our church in the correct path. But I also believe that not everything which she wrote was a revelation from God. This I had to confront when I was doing my master's work in Geology. In Patriarchs and Prophets, she makes the statement that volcanism is the result of coal beds burning within the earth's lithosphere. She obtained that knowledge from her wide reading. We now know that volcanism is the result of plate interactions and weakness in the plates where mantle material can come to the surface and erupt upon the earth as lava flows. It is a phenomena not related to coal beds burning. Her statement was based upon the geological science of her day.

But I also had to come to the realization that God never intended for her to be the final arbiter of doctrine for our church. The development of doctrinal understanding is the purview of the Church and each of its members. God has never released us from our obligation for personal study, and He purposely did not use her to define doctrinal positions except in very rare occasions. Her understanding of doctrines was that obtained by the early discussions of the church and her own study. She had to study her Bible just as we must. In her own writings she has declared that we are not to assume that we have arrived at all truth and not all of our understanding of doctrine is necessarily correct or right. We have much study to do. She also assures us that God will allow heresy in order to wake us up and get us to study. The recent Ford controversy was one of those times.

Our prophet is different from the others who claimed to be prophets during the same period as her ministry. They developed the doctrines for their churches. God did not allow her to do this in opposition to those who make such a claim for her in order to blacken her name. But those who were co-laborers with her and subsequent members of our Church have made her understanding of doctrine as the final word.

And in doing so they have stifled the search for deeper understanding and have kept us back from achieving the level of growth which God requires of His church prior to His coming. It is the lack of growth on our part that has kept us on this earth for 165 years past 1844. God has been patient with us, but there comes a limit. And He has a time beyond which there is no more patience.

For instance, her statement which declares that Christ entered the most Holy place of heaven does not agree with the scriptural evidence. Who do I accept as my final authority. EGW statement that Christ, prior to 1844, ministered in the Holy place, then in 1844 physically moved into the throne room of God? Or do I accept the Biblical account which places Christ in the most Holy place since His ascension? And yet there are those who would argue that Christ physically moved in 1844.

A caveat is required here: I am not saying to ignore her writings. I am saying there is a time to understand that God did not reveal to her everything which she wrote. She used the ideas of others in support of things revealed to her in vision. And we need to discriminate between that which was revealed by God and that which she wrote in order to add understanding.

There are many other places where she makes doctrinal statements which were the truth for her age, and do not reflect current understanding. The result has been that many have not done the Bible study that is required of us to know God and His will. This has also opened up breaches in the wall because we now have those who will completely ignore clear statements of truth in the Bible in order to support their agenda. There are practicing homosexuals who would love to see us reject the clear statements of God in regard to the sin of homosexuality. (And please do not take this last to mean I hate homosexuals. Their sin is not my sin, but we are all sinners and in need of grace. But it does not mean that God's standard for entrance to heaven has changed. God will not take away our sin if we do not accept that it is a sin.) And I have seen rebellion in our churches because there are those who want to be thought to be politically correct, who would desire nothing more than to see our church be accepted in the main stream of the secular world, thus have accepted the world's standard of morality. Such as those who want us to handle divorce not as a moral issue, but as an issue of compassion. It is a moral issue, and God will not allow adulterers and the sexual immoral into His kingdom. I would say that taking every word of EGW as the final word is one of the key causes for this rebellion. Had we been honest with our prophet and understood how her ministry worked and had been quite forward in revealing this, I believe we would have been in the kingdom long before this.

In closing, I would repeat: EGW was a true prophet of God who God sent to us in order to keep His Church in the right path at a time when many were going down the wrong paths. But there is an obligation on our part to know what is the revealed truth of God and what she supplied in order to help in understanding, some of which is now known to be incorrect. It is our responsibility to study and re-study all of our doctrinal positions in order that we get it right. Do not think that we have a complete understanding of Justification, Sanctification, and Glorification; do not think that we fully appreciate the law; do not think that we fully understand the sanctuary message. The Bible is correct, but our understanding of Biblical truth is contained within finite human minds. What was right for EGW and her generation, will not be right for us in our generations. Rather, allow the Holy Spirit to direct our minds. And when heresies crop up, and be assured they will, be willing to do a complete and thorough re-study because it maybe that God is trying to correct our understanding. Otherwise, we will be here for another 165 years. And I grow weary of this world.

[The Searcher]

Dear Friends,

I would now like to add some Biblical statements which have pointed me in the direction which I have taken. That which happened in 1844 was the beginning of a judgment process which will continue until the final events unfold after the thousand years conclude. The judgment is not, and I repeat, it is not a look at our personal records in order to determine who is in and who is not. Rather, it is God responding to our prayers for justice. We have brought to Him our lawsuit against Satan, against the beast who is the little horn power, and against the great prostitute, Babylon. It is a judgment of these entities before the whole universe beginning with the angels, adding us during the thousand years, and finally before all when the final record is opened revealing the truth behind these various entities and those who follow them.

And in the course of their dominion over God's holy people, they have inflicted tremendous pain and hardship. They have brought grief on those who would seek to be at peace with all men. They have brought war and pestilence; they have killed in order to enforce their arbitrary laws, and they have denied men and women their freedom to follow God as He directed them.

I do not fear the judgment because I am not its focus since I became a son of God, rather, I am the litigant who has brought his case before God, the true and righteous Judge, in order to be vindicated. His holy one is the host of heaven; it is His people; it is His church who have made their appeal to the highest court in the universe. From this court, there is no further appeal. And from this judgment, there will be no doubt that God has judged correctly and has served out just sentences.

I will let the verses speak for themselves. These are direct translations from the Aramaic (Daniel 7), Hebrew (Daniel 8), Greek (Luke and Revelation). I have tried to be as accurate as possible. You can take them to whomever you like to determine their accuracy. Let us begin with Daniel 7.

I was watching until when thrones were cast down, and an old one of days sat down: his garment as white snow, and the hair of his head as pure wool, his throne flames that was fire, his wheels a burning fire,

A river which was fire flowing and coming forth from before him, a thousand of thousands served him, and ten thousand of ten thousands are before him. They arose, the judgment was set, and books were opened.

Daniel 7.9, 10

I was watching in visions of the night, and lo, he came with clouds of the heavens as a son of man coming. And he came up to the old one of the days, and he came near before him.

And unto him, dominion and honor and a kingdom, and all of the peoples, tribes, and tongues were given to him. They will serve his dominion, an eternal dominion which will not pass away, and his reign which will not be destroyed.

Daniel 7.13, 14

And the holy ones of the most high will receive the kingdom, they will take possession of the kingdom as far as eternally, and even unto an eternity of eternities.

Daniel 7.18

I was watching and that horn made war with the holy ones and overpowered them.

Until when the old one of days came and gave the judgment for the holy ones of the most high. Also, the appointed time was obtained, and the holy ones took possession of the kingdom.

Daniel 7.21, 22

And the judgment sat, and their (11 horns) dominion was taken away in order to be destroyed and to be killed as far as the end.

And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness, which kingdoms are under all the heavens will be given unto them, the holy ones of the most high, his kingdom is an eternal kingdom, and all of the dominions will serve and be obedient to him .

Daniel 7.26

And from the one among them (Greek four horns) came forward another, a more insignificant horn, but she became excessively great to the south and to the east and to Jerusalem.

Then she grew great over the host of the heavens, then she threw down to earth from the host and from the stars, then she trampled them.

Also, he made himself great over the prince of the host, also because of him the continual was removed, and a foundation of its sanctuary was removed.

Also a host was set over the continual by rebellion, and she cast truth to the ground, then she will do and will be successful.

Then I heard one holy one talk, then another holy one spoke to the certain one who spoke, "How long the vision, the continual, and to set the transgression which desolates; also a holy and trampled host."

Then he spoke to me, "Up to evening/morning two thousand three hundred, then a holy one will be vindicated."

Daniel 8.9 14

And at the latter end of these kings, when the ones who rebel are finished, a king will arise, defiant, and one who is skilled in intrigue,

And his possessions will be vast, yet not by his strength, also one who does extraordinary ruin, and he will enjoy success. Then he will do, and he will ruin great ones and a people of holy ones.

Also upon his understanding he will also enjoy success by deceit through his hand. And he will make himself great in his heart. And with unconcern he will ruin great ones, and he will stand over a prince of princes. Yet he will be broken at the end of life.

Daniel 8.23 25

But will not God do the vindication of his elect of those who cry aloud to him day and night? And will he delay long over them?

I say to you that he will do their vindication in haste. However will the son of man, after coming, find trust upon the earth?

Luke 18.7, 8

And when he took the book, the four living creatures and the twentyfour elders fell before the lamb having each a harp and golden bowls full of incense which are the prayers of the holy ones.

Revelation 5.8

And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw, beneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and because of the witness which they had.

And they cried out with a loud voice saying, "Until when, O Master, the holy and true one, will you not judge and vindicate our blood from those who dwell upon the earth?"

And a white robe was given to them, and it was said to them that they will rest yet a little time until their fellow servants and their brothers, those about to be killed, as also them, were also completed.

Revelation 6.9 to 11

And another angel came and stood over the altar having a gold censer, and much incense was given to him that he will give with the prayers of all the holy ones upon the golden altar before the throne.

And the smoke ascended from the altar with the prayers of the holy ones from the hand of the angel before God.

Revelation 8.3, 4

And the nations were angry, but your anger, and the time of the dead to be judged, and to give the wages of your servants the prophets and those who fear your name, the small and the great, and destroying, also those who corrupt the earth, came.

Revelation 11.18

And it was given to him (the beast) to make war with the holy ones and to conquer them. And authority was given to him over all tribes and peoples and tongues and nations. . . .

If any for captivity, into captivity he departed; if any by sword to kill him, by sword to be killed. Here is the patient endurance and the trust of the holy ones.

Revelation 13.7, 10

Here is the patient endurance of the holy ones, those who keep the commandments of God and the trust of Jesus.

Revelation 14.12

And I heard the angel of the waters saying, "You are righteous, the one who is and was, O Righteous One, because you judged thus

because they poured out blood of holy ones and prophets, and you have given to them blood to drink. You are worthy."

And I heard from the altar saying, "Yes, lord, God, the almighty, your judgments are true and just."

Revelation 16.5 to 7

And I saw the woman drunk from the blood of the holy ones and from the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. Seeing her, I was greatly amazed.

Revelation 17.6

Rejoice over her, heaven and the holy ones and the apostles and the prophets because God decided your lawsuit against her. . . .

And in her was found the blood of prophets and holy ones and all of those who have been slain upon the earth.

Revelation 18.20, 24

After this, I heard, as a great voice of a crowd of many in the heavens saying, "Hallelujah, the salvation and the glory and the power of our God,

because his judgments are true and just, because he judged the great prostitute who corrupted the earth by her sexual immorality, and He vindicated the blood of his servants from her hand."

And a second time they cried out, "Hallelujah!" And the smoke ascended into the eternity of eternities. . . .

"Let us rejoice and exult and give glory to him because the marriage feast of the lamb came, and his bride (the church) has prepared herself."

And it was given to her in order that she might clothe herself in linen, clean and bright, because the linen is the righteousness of the holy ones.

Revelation 19.1 - 3, 7, 8

And they ascended upon the plain of the earth, and they encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. And fire came down from the heaven from God and it devoured them.

Revelation 20.9

Sincerely,

Seafarer

[Stewart (SDA)]

The judgment is not, and I repeat, it is not a look at our personal records in order to determine who is in and who is not. Rather, it is God responding to our prayers for justice.

Is it not professed Christians that are being addressed, when the apostle says,

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad"(2Cor 5:10 NIV)?

Does this not speak of a certain scrutiny?

And are not the living and the dead, the professed Christian and the avowed atheist, to be judged "out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works"?(Rev 20:12)

Because, as He says, "they that have done good [will come forth] to the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil [come forth] to the resurrection of damnation." (Jn 5:29)

Is there not necessarily a time prior to the resurrection – when the professed people of God appear before the judgment seat of Christ -- wherein His true people shall be "accounted worthy [deemed, or judged worthy] to obtain the new world, and the resurrection from the dead" (Lk 20:35)?

Regards,

Stewart.

[Dr. Rich]

Hmmm, some very good reading on this thread I must say! Great questions-and some good attempt(s) to answer some of them.

My take (for what it is worth) is that Jesus said in His own words He was going to Heave to be with His Father--Period! There is nothing at all in His words about any "investigative judgment".

Daniel's prophecy in 8:14 does not say anything about any investigative judgment or that the Son of God would move to any most holy place. Actually, when looking at all of Daniel 8 (and Dan. 2's prophecy about the rock cut out without hands) it appears to me that the 'Holy Place' is actually the Kingdom of Heaven and there could not be any KOH without any 'host' as found in verse 13. Therefore, why couldn't this mean that the KOH as found in Matthew 25:1-13, and Dan. 2's 'rock' be this 'holy place' and that the SDAs got the date right, but it was the wrong event?

As for the judgment--John 9:39 gives Jesus saying that He came into this world for Judgment and then in John 12:31 He also said that Judgment is (now) upon this world.

I have read all that EGW has written and said about her idea about investigative judgment and to me it appears she attempted to hide or cover up the complete earlier goof of saying that she had a vision that Jesus was going to come in 1844. What she wrote on page 433 of the GC proves beyond ANY reasonable doubt that she was NOT being led by the Holy Spirit!

As for Luke's words, Paul's words and the unknown writer of Hebrew's words, well, none of them were eyewitnesses like the 12 disciples were. In court, their testamony would be thrown out as being hearsay. Therefore, to build a belief upon their words as a foundation might place one as believing and practicing a lie as found in Rev. 21:8 and 22:15.

[John317]

Also john317, if you will look at the earlier posts on this topic, you will see that I have given a list of New Testament texts which declare that Christ is at the right hand of God and has been there since His ascension. Look them up, please, then respond. I would appreciate it very much.

Please explain your understanding of "the right hand of God" and what you see as the relationship between this and Christ's work as our High Priest in the Most Holy Place.

Everyone, including Ellen White and all SDAs, knows that Christ has been at the right hand of God since His ascension.

[John317]

Is it not professed Christians that are being addressed, when the apostle says,

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad"(2Cor 5:10 NIV)?

Does this not speak of a certain scrutiny?

Certainly.

Quote:

And are not the living and the dead, the professed Christian and the avowed atheist, to be judged "out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works"?(Rev 20:12)

Yes Indeed.

Quote:

Because, as He says, "they that have done good [will come forth] to the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil [come forth] to the resurrection of damnation." (Jn 5:29)

Is there not necessarily a time prior to the resurrection – when the professed people of God appear before the judgment seat of Christ -- wherein His true people shall be "accounted worthy [deemed, or judged worthy] to obtain the new world, and the resurrection from the dead" (Lk 20:35)?

Yes. But of course the Investigative Judgment is not for the benefit of God's learning anything. Many people, including Dr. Ford, make the mistake of attacking the IJ on the basis of the truth that God already knows our hearts. But this is irrelevant since no one teaches that God learns anything from the IJ.

[John317]

I have read all that EGW has written and said about her idea about investigative judgment and to me it appears she attempted to hide or cover up the complete earlier goof of saying that she had a vision that Jesus was going to come in 1844.

Please quote and give the reference to the statement you claim she made that she had a vision that Jesus was going to come in 1844.

Quote:

What she wrote on page 433 of the GC proves beyond ANY reasonable doubt that she was NOT being led by the Holy Spirit!

Show your evidence and reasoning on this point.

[Guest]

My take (for what it is worth)

Well lets see here....

"Your take" + 55 cents = 12 oz. can of pepsi

in some places.

I read page 433 of the GC, to see the proof you spoke of, that she was not led by the Holy Spirit. I don't know why I bothered, I knew there was no such thing there. That's absurd.

[wayfinder]

Page 433 "The Great Conroversy" starts out by quoting Revelation 11:19 "The temple of God was opened in heaven...". Ellen White goes on to say that this prophecy was fulfilled in 1844 when the sanctuary doctrine was developed as the explaination for the mistaken belief that Christ would return to earth in that year. This event is connected to the sounding of the seventh trumpet, therefore the fulfillment occurs when the seventh trumpet has sounded. For Ellen to be correct about the fulfillment of this prophecy in 1844, one must show that the seventh trumpet has sounded, as well as, the other six. It is absolutly clear and beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the trumpets have yet to sound and she was incorrect about the fulfillment.

[Guest]

Ellen White = Inspired

Wayfinder = Confused

[wayfinder]

Time will tell.

[skyblue888]

Page 433 "The Great Conroversy" starts out by quoting Revelation 11:19 "The temple of God was opened in heaven...". Ellen White goes on to say that this prophecy was fulfilled in 1844 when the sanctuary doctrine was developed as the explaination for the mistaken belief that Christ would return to earth in that year. This event is connected to the sounding of the seventh trumpet, therefore the fulfillment occurs when the seventh trumpet has sounded. For Ellen to be correct about the fulfillment of this prophecy in 1844, one must show that the seventh trumpet has sounded, as well as, the other six. It is absolutly clear and beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the trumpets have yet to sound and she was incorrect about the fulfillment.

The first four trumpets were judgments that fell upon Pagan Rome at the hand of the Barbarian tribes which brought about the fall of the Roman Empire in 476 A.D. Then the fifth and sixth trumpets were judgments that fell upon Papal Rome at the hand of the Turks from 1299 to 1449 (five prophetic months, 150 literal years) and then from 1449 to the 11th of August 1840 with the fall of the Ottoman Empire. (391 literal years and 15 literal days "for the hour, the day and month and year". Rev.9:5,15. (see G.C.334,335).

The seventh trumpet will be the seven last plagues, the judgments that will fall upon Babylon the Great after the close of probation. If the mission of the Gospel had been completed shortly after 1844 the seventh trumpet would have been fulfilled. There has been a delay and that is why the judgments which are to fall upon Babylon the Great are still future.

[Dr. Rich]

Hey Sky--Did you ever notice a warning about adding or deleting words found in the book of Revelation? If you were right, then you sure have deleted lots of words in these prophecies. Talk to me--the 6th Trumpet tells us that there was an army of two hundred million! A third of mankind was killed. Can you show me anywhere in the history of this world that this actually happened? I didn't think so.

How about the 5th Trumpet--in those days men shall seek death and will not find it? Try reading about this in Rev. 9 and then get back here and explain yourself! This stuff is serious--extremely serious, because IF you don't actually understand it, then you just might not be one of the wise. Please show us when the people of God had the seal of God on their forehead.

Now lets go to the first--a third of the earth and trees and grass were burned up. Please show me in history when this happened exactly as the prophecy says it does.

The second trumpet is when a third of the sea became blood. I have not read about this ever happening either. A third of all of the creatures in the sea died! WHAT? And you said this happened already?

I can go on--but you get the point so I won't except to ask when did the beast come up out of the sea and the other beast (Satan) come up out of the earth? If this has happened already--how come no one noticed?

[Woody]

Quote:

Hey Sky--Did you ever notice a warning about adding or deleting words found in the book of Revelation? If you were right, then you sure have deleted lots of words in these prophecies.

I wonder if the same warning that applies to John's work ... also applies to the prophet Ellen White's work? This would be very interesting.

[Dr. Rich]

No Redwood, there is NO such warning for EGW. Besides, are you insinuating that I changed her words? You can read her words yourself--there is no need to change them. Fact is fact my friend!

[Woody]

Sorry .. I was not referring to you at all. But many times by many people ... her words are added or deleted from. Those who do it know ... In fact ... they openly justify it. (As if she needed some help)

[Ted Oplinger]

Are you sure that Christ entered the most holy place at that time? There are many new testament texts which indicate that Christ has been sitting at the right hand of God since He returned to heaven after His resurrection. And if I understand this properly, the throne of God is in the most holy place. Could you kindly reconcile these texts with your statement that Christ entered the most holy 165 years ago?

Acts 2.33, Acts 5.31, Acts 7.55, Romans 8.34, Ephesians 1.20, Colossians 3.1, Hebrews 1.3, Hebrews 8.1, Hebrews 10.12, Hebrews 12.2, 1 Peter 3.22

It would be greatly appreciated.

Sincerely,

Seafarer

Tagging in a bit late to the thread...

The Scriptures are quite clear that when Christ made the atonement with His own blood, He sat down at the right hand of the Father.

Where is the throne of God?

The Most Holy Place in the Heavenly sanctuary.

Perhaps the better way to phrase it is that He laid aside His High Priestly garments, put on the garments of the rank-and-file priest (that would be us, friends), and began the work relating to those duties performed in the Most Holy Place.

[Ted Oplinger]

Did you know that there were only two sins which required blood to be brought into the holy place: When a priest sinned against the people, and a corporate sin when the congregation of Israel sinned in ignorance and discovered their sin? All other blood was splattered against the altar of burnt sacrifice round-about or applied to its four horns and the remainder of all blood was poured upon the ash heap which was on the east side of the altar of burnt offering. The blood which was taken into the tent was only sprinkled on the curtain and placed upon the four horns of the altar of incense.

The sprinkling round about the altar of burnt offering is true for the burnt offering. Leviticus 1 spells that out quite nicely.

Blood from the sin offering for whoever sins unintentionally before the Lord was taken into the tent of meeting (Holy Place) and sprinkled before the veil, and blood painted onto the horns of the altar of incense. The rest of the blood was poured out at the base of the altar of burnt offering after the ministrations for the sin offering were completed in the Holy Place.

Leviticus 4:1-7

Verse 2 makes it clear it wasn't just for the priests. Anyone sinning unintentionally had to present this offering to the Lord, and the blood be carried into the Holy Place for atonement to take place.

[John317]

The Scriptures are quite clear that when Christ made the atonement with His own blood, He sat down at the right hand of the Father.

Let's discuss the meaning of "sat down at the right hand of God." Are you saying that this phrase refers to the geographical location or the posture of Christ?

[John317]

Where is the throne of God?

The Most Holy Place in the Heavenly sanctuary.

The throne of God is wherever God is.

And God's throne has wheels. Nothing perfectly stationary has wheels. They would be without purpose unless they help something move. See Ezekiel 1:15ff and Daniel 7: 9-13. Tell what is happening in those verses in Daniel. Describe the throne. There is movement, isn't there, on the part of both the Father and the Son? And isn't that a description of a judgment which occurs during the time when the little horn is speaking pompous words? So this judgment takes place before the Second Coming, right?

[Ted Oplinger]

Originally Posted By: Ted_Oplinger

The Scriptures are quite clear that when Christ made the atonement with His own blood, He sat down at the right hand of the Father.

Let's discuss the meaning of "sat down at the right hand of God." Are you saying that this phrase refers to the geographical location or the posture of Christ?

Well, John, if one is going to take the geographical position and pound it down, then turn use the same premise to justify a belief of Christ moving from one geographical location to another (ie, Holy Place to Most Holy Place) - then one has locked themselves into a huge inconsistency that is every bit as notable as those who told the Millerites that the date the Lord returns is not settable before 1844.

I'll explain in the nexte reply...

[Ted Oplinger]

Originally Posted By: Ted_Oplinger

Where is the throne of God?

The Most Holy Place in the Heavenly sanctuary.

The throne of God is wherever God is.

And God's throne has wheels. Nothing perfectly stationary has wheels. They would be without purpose unless they help something move. See Ezekiel 1:15ff and Daniel 7: 9-13. Tell what is happening in those verses in Daniel. Describe the throne. There is movement, isn't there, on the part of both the Father and the Son? And isn't that a description of a judgment which occurs during the time when the little horn is speaking pompous words? So this judgment takes place before the Second Coming, right?

First, I never said God's throne was stationary. However, standard Adventist theology does say this every time it declares Christ moving from one compartment to another.

The Bible is quite clear about the Most Holy.

At the death of Christ, the veil between the Holy and Most Holy was rent in two, indicating there was no longer two compartments, but one. Hebrews 4 tells us we have access through the veil - to the Most Holy Place - to come boldly before the throne of grace to receive help in our time of need. As I said before, Paul writes that Christ ministered His blood, then sat down at the right hand of the Father - again, indicating the separation between the Holy and Most Holy was removed, because the ministration of the sin offering was a Holy Place ministration.

That leads me to this conclusion: Christ our High Priest has ministrations which have a Holy Place function, and those of the Most Holy Place function. They are taking place in one place - the Most Holy place before the throne of God, wherever one wants to place the movement of that throne to be.

To be consistent - if one wishes to say the throne of God moves, then it necessarily means the Most Holy also moves, it is defined in the Sanctuary as that immediate space around the throne of God - the Mercy Seat. That is the demonstration of the Tabernacle in the wilderness, is it not?

So if the veil is rent, and Christ is ministering both Holy Place and Most Holy Place postures/functions in one unified "compartment" which moves wherever the throne of God moves...then asking to define a difference between the geographical and posture seems to me an unsupported question.

As far as the events in Ezek. 1:5ff and Daniel 7:9-13, is this not the same event as portrayed in Revelation 4 and 5?

I haven't questioned to existence of an Investigative Judgment. Where I have a bone to pick on the subject is on the focus of that Investigation.

Standard Adventist theology makes people the focus of that Judgment.

The Bible, however, judged people in the very beginning - all are sinful, and come short of the glory of God. This judgment was handed to mankind in the person of Adam. In Adam, ALL die.In the Garden, mankind was put on trial, convicted of sin, and condemned by God's summary judgment on the issue.

Sentence on the judgment was carried out on Calvary. In Christ, all died, and all will be made alive.

From my perspective, there are only two major issues left in the Great Controversy:

1) What to do with the charges Satan has leveled against God and man.

2) The justified removal of sin and those identifying with it from existence.

These are the sole two issues left. Everything else stems from one or the other of these.

The Investigative Judgment going on now is addressing the first. Satan is accusing God, accusing those who are loyal to Christ, and those who aren't loyal Christ.

It is not for God's knowledge this is happening, but for created beings who do not have omniscience but do have a vested interest in knowing the character of God is beyond fault AND do not want redeemed mankind bringing to heaven any vestige of the rebellion Satan started there.

Are Satan's charges against God true or false? The verdict is rendered in Revelation 5 and 15 - Holy, just and true..who will not worship you?

Are Satan's charges against those loyal to God true or false? Daniel 7 states explicitly the verdict is in favor of the saints, not of Satan. Satan loses both points.

So the Investigative Judgment takes care of the accusations of the Archrebel. As it winds up, Satan will seek to take this planet by force to keep it away from God. That's what is happening with Daniel 8,9 and Revelation 13, 16. - his attempt to make Isaiah 14:12-14 his reality.

Got to roll...

[tall73]

Let's discuss the meaning of "sat down at the right hand of God." Are you saying that this phrase refers to the geographical location or the posture of Christ?

It's use within Hebrews includes several elements:

1. Christ is installed as King and Lord, reigning with His Father and judging the nations. This concept is certainly present in Hebrews.

Heb 1:13 And to which of the angels has he ever said, "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet"

2. Hebrews also uses it to emphasize the difference between the access of the earthly high priest and the access of Jesus in the new covenant:

Heb 8:1 Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven

The high priest did not sit in the earthly in God's presence, rather they went in once per year, offered, then withdrew again.

Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.

But Jesus entered once for all and stayed:

Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)

Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

Not only that but we can come straight to the throne of grace through what He has done. So the Christian has far greater access than even the earthly high priest:

Heb 4:14 Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.

Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

Heb 4:16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

3. Hebrews contrasts the daily standing to offer sacrifices of the priest with Jesus' once for all offering, after which He sat down:

Heb 10:11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.

Heb 10:12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,

So for the author the sitting of Christ is used to show:

a. That He is installed as King and Lord at God's right hand.

b. That He is a great High Priest who is always in the presence of God and who inaugurated a "new and living" way to God for us as well.

c. That His sacrifice was once for all, not repeated daily.

[BobRyan]

In the NT Jesus is described both as "sitting" and as "standing" (Acts -- Sthephen sees Christ standing - so also does John in Rev 1).

In the OT Christ is predicted to be functioning as High priest while sitting on his throne Zech 6:12-13 -

It does not pay to get too exercised over posture arguing "hey -- He can't do that".

And everyone agrees that Christ does not come back to earth every day and get crucified again.

in Christ,

Bob