Can we pursue capitalism____

[Dr. Shane]

I expected something very similar from you.

Sometimes it seems that there are those that delight in keeping people in circumstances they would not want their own children in

I am a product of the welfare system. If it wasn't for the welfare system I would have been trapped in poverty and my children would be trapped in poverty. Because of the welfare system I was able to rise above poverty, get a college degree and become a asset to my community.

Praise the loving Lord Jesus Christ for the welfare system of the United States!!!!! Praise God from Whom all blessings flow...

[Dr. Shane]

The single mother that keeps her child is the one to carry the burden.

[Dr. Shane]

When I would pick up the children it was not uncommon to see toddlers in soggy diapers,bottle in one hand and cookies in another for breakfast.Their mothers drinking beer and smoking cigarettes as their children played on the sidewalk.

NEWSFLASH: ALCOHOLISM AND DRUG ADDICTION DOESN'T JUST IMPACT WELFARE RECIPIENTS.

You can now go back to your regular programming.

[Dr. Shane]

Taking care of the elderly, the infirm, and women /children having no support used to be the obligation of families and the church ministries. Nowhere do I read that it is Scriptural to tax ourselves and delegate those responsibilities to a central government in the name of "caring for the unfortunate".

No where do I read that in the Bible that the government should build roads or schools either. Maybe the Religious Right should first get rid of all the government roads and schools and then take the bread out of the mouths of the poor.

[Guest]

Maybe the Religious Right should first get rid of all the government roads and schools

My money paid for those roads and schools. Why would I want to get rid of them? I've already spent the money now.

[bonnie]

Quote:

I am a product of the welfare system. If it wasn't for the welfare system I would have been trapped in poverty and my children would be trapped in poverty. Because of the welfare system I was able to rise above poverty, get a college degree and become a asset to my community.

Welfare is not what took you out of poverty.Thousands of poor people rise above their poverty without living on welfare all their lives.You are not unique in rising above poverty.Many of us have without being on welfare.

Rarely is welfare successful in lifting any out of poverty

[bonnie]

Quote:

I guess society would be better off if poor, single women would just abort their babies.

Trying to imply that this is what I said is dishonest.

Quote:

So it is alright for tax payers to pay for incarceration but not food stamps or day care? Food stamps and day care are cheaper.

Again you are being dishonest.

This began with your praise of Obama for removing the mandate that requires those on welfare to get a education,find a trade and better themselves with the aid of food stamps,day care,medical and subsized housing. Now they can sit contentedly on welfare for life. Great career choice

Quote:

People have gone on and off the welfare rolls from its beginning. That was not a phenomenon created by welfare reform. The percentage of those in poverty was not impacted by welfare reform.

Yes it was a phenomenon. What occurred in other states I have no idea,but here it was making a difference.

One family off welfare,able to sustain their families is a difference.

[bonnie]

Quote:

NEWSFLASH: ALCOHOLISM AND DRUG ADDICTION DOESN'T JUST IMPACT WELFARE RECIPIENTS.

You can now go back to your regular programming.

NEWSFLASH. I did not say that it did.However it would be difficult if not impossible to find other homes and apt bldgs in our area with the same scene at 8:00AM. Other homes and apt buildings the parents are getting off to work.

was out with kids in soggy diapers and a cookie for breakfast.

But your exaggerartions in this whole discussion make for a better discussion apparently.

[bonnie]

Quote:

No where do I read that in the Bible that the government should build roads or schools either. Maybe the Religious Right should first get rid of all the government roads and schools and then take the bread out of the mouths of the poor.

Maybe the liberal left should quit with the extremism.

Everything you have said in the last few posts is dishonest.You are not responding to what was said,but what you wish was said.

Back a few pages.....

Whether it was job training or schooling they had five years to help themselves with very generous help from the state. People moved here just for our welfare benefits.

Once employed they had a year of free daycare,paid for by the state. Medical benefits till private insurance would kick on.

That was not well received. It was against their civil rights to demand they work. Never mind against the taxpayer and his rights.

We also have schools for pregnant unwed women.Transportation is provided as well. Of course there is no cost.Once the baby is born there is free daycare on site.

Once thru with high school there are grants and very low cost loans specifically for them for college. And day care.

Two of the schools are under utilized.Don't know the status of the others but these two have a problem staying open.

You seem to operate under the illusion that all is the responsibility of the taxpayer and that the tax payer kicks them to the curb

The dirty little secret is they cannot be forced and many do not want education and a job. Welfare does not give them a lavish lifestyle but it is security with no effort.

Obviously there is something missing in your solution. That is the motivation to help themselves with the help they are currently given

They do garnish wages here for deadbeat dads. Many simply leave the state and or work for cash.

Whether fair or not it is the young woman that ends up with the greater responsibility .She is the one pregnant for 9 months and usually cares for the child. Help is available but they need to want it and go after it.

Motivation is something that has to be within.

Welfare is not full of people that need a temporary hand up. Most feel entitled to what others have earned

Now find in the above where there was a suggestion made concerning the mother having an abortion.Taking food out of the poor. Then show where anyone suggested not giving aid and support to the young mother.

You simply do not think they need to work.Or to help themselves with the aid they are given.

Always works better if you stick to what was actually said.

I know it doesn't always sound so dramatic but it is a little more honest

[bonnie]

Maybe you need to campaign a little harder among your liberal peers.They are wealthier than conservatives and give less money and time to charitable causes.

[lazarus]

I am a product of the welfare system. If it wasn't for the welfare system I would have been trapped in poverty and my children would be trapped in poverty. Because of the welfare system I was able to rise above poverty, get a college degree and become a asset to my community.

Praise the loving Lord Jesus Christ for the welfare system of the United States!!!!! Praise God from Whom all blessings flow...

Took courage to share that in this community. Kudos to you!

I was in a meeting last week with community leaders and a young lady gave a powerful "testimony". She spoke about how as a single mother food stamps and various other programs helps her to get her life together. She was able to care for her daughter, earned a college degree and now she helps other single parents find out what benefits are available so they can improve their lives. She says that most of the lone parents she meets really want to do things better but just don't know how.

[bonnie]

Quote:

I was in a meeting last week with community leaders and a young lady gave a powerful "testimony". She spoke about how as a single mother food stamps and various other programs helps her to get her life together. She was able to care for her daughter, earned a college degree and now she helps other single parents find out what benefits are available so they can improve their lives. She says that most of the lone parents she meets really want to do things better but just don't know how.

That is exactly the program we had. The only difference is they were not given a choice if they wanted a better life.

After five years and the availability of help to get there it was felt they were ready to support themselves.

You walk into into social service office and there are racks of information on what is available. In helping one young woman it was obvious it was not hard to find. Online gives detailed instructions and how to's.The lobby gives phone numbers and how to's.

When they do not voluntarily take advantage of what is being offered and right in front of them sometimes they need a "gentle" push in the right direction.

No one has advocated a child go hungary or to put mother and child on the street.

[Dr. Shane]

My money paid for those roads and schools. Why would I want to get rid of them? I've already spent the money now.

Sell them to private industry so they can make them toll roads and we can use the money to pay off the debt.

[Dr. Shane]

She spoke about how as a single mother food stamps and various other programs helps her to get her life together. She was able to care for her daughter, earned a college degree and now she helps other single parents...

Many people that have not been saved by the welfare system really don't understand what it means to those on it. This story that Lazarus shares doesn't happen in El Salvador, India or Kenya where there are no safety nets. Single mothers there become prostitutes to support their children. Of course I am sure some cold-hearted conservatives like that because at least the woman is earning her money and not taking a hand out.

[bonnie]

Quote:

Many people that have not been saved by the welfare system really don't understand what it means to those on it. This story that Lazarus shares doesn't happen in El Salvador, India or Kenya where there are no safety nets. Single mothers there become prostitutes to support their children. Of course I am sure some cold-hearted conservatives like that because at least the woman is earning her money and not taking a hand out.

Let's see,the cold hearted conservatives give more of themselves and their own money than do liberal's.Liberal's have more and give less.

You are again exaggerating for effect and seem to need to do that.

No one has argued against safety nets. That is a position you take so you can condemn those that disagree with you.

You are delighted that families can be kept as less than they should be. A lifetime of welfare is seen as a good thing to you.

Your condemnation of conservatives for not wanting a safety net is dishonest.

You may not consider a five year limit,education or job training,medical benefits till able to provide their own,free private daycare,subsidized housing and food stamps as a safety net,but most without a ax to grind can see the benefit all the way around.

Of course there are people that love keeping victims as victims,never expecting or demanding they use their God given talents to help themselves along with a helping hand.

I would not want my children raised in that situation.I hate seeing what it does to children in general. If the parents or single mother does not reach out for all the help available I have no problem with the state insisting they do get their education/training that is provided for them.

Career welfare is not a kindness. Nor does it prove christianity by those that like to thump their chest over how pious and caring they are

I realize you will keep adding false implications and arguing over points not made. But maybe that is all you have

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

for now you have ties to Lucifer.... This world is under the control of the evil one. If you can't see that then there's no hope...

The devil only has the control allowed him by God.

[Robert]

You're on the ropes, bonnie...Shane has boxed you well....I didn't know he had it in him....

[bonnie]

You're on the ropes, bonnie...Shane has boxed you well....I didn't know he had it in him....

I guess.All I see is a man that has to create a false impression of what was said and then posture as to how christian his stance on poverty is. Each to their own. I did feel Shane was a bit more honest than this.Not needing to create a false cause to argue against.

Nothing of what Shane has implied is true.

Shane seems to like to revel in his poverty at a young age. My family was not on welfare,had we been we would have had the material things welfare provided for people like Shane.

My siblings and I know what it is like to be hungary,cold and scared. When I was a child no one provided the many opportunities that are provided benefit of the taxpayer today. It is not something I would care to redo but looking back it taught us things that maybe we would never have learned. First was that we were not entitled to what others had.My parents being who they were and no matter how poor were always willing to help another.

If my brothers and I wanted something, we knew of only one way to get it. Not always what we wanted to do and not always fun.

I would not be afraid to guess that when it came to helping young mothers and their children I don't think Shane has had the hands on my parents did.

The greatest gift they gave them and us was the knowledge we could if we wanted to enough.

With what is available today it is not nearly as tough as it was. It takes work but anything worthwhile usually does. There has been nothing said that would have given Shane the idea that I or anyone else did not want a safety net or that we wanted children to go hungary. He needs that to appear to be the case to justify his less than honest replies.

When the decision is made to ignore the opportunities to help themselves to a better life,keep having children that others need to feed it is child abuse. Wanting that for others as Shane appears to is cruel

When men can father children and not pay for their well being they belong in jail

He likes to see continued welfare.Maybe it gives some people a sense of superiority.

I don't. I don't like seeing especially children pay for their parents lack. Or in some cases opportunity

When opportunities are provided for more than many have housing,medical,food stamps,education,private free day care,it is child abuse to prefer to live on welfare.

Just so we can see if you and Shane can put your minds to rest.

I believe we need a safety net. With welfare reform MN did have a good start to the benefit of the recipient. Shane didn't like that tho.He seems to feel that they should stay on welfare

Welfare recipients should have requirements to receive taxpayer money. Education or job training. HIgh School with on site daycare for pregnant young women was a good idea. To bad more did not take advantage of it.Transportation was provided from their door to the school.

This was easier before Obama decided they didn't need to unless they wanted to. A time limit on welfare.Five years was long enough for a 4 year college degree. Many programs were available for young single moms.Lots of those were grants not having to be repaid

Once working, medical aid till they are able thru work to provide their own. Subsidized housing till they can leave welfare housing behind thru work. Qualified daycare while in school. MN gave it also for the first year of work if needed.Food stamps to make sure that there was sufficient food for the children.

[Dr. Shane]

I haven't forgotten where I came from. I earn enough money to drive a new car and live in a bigger house than I do, but that is not where my priorities lie. Much of my money is spent on charitable causes. After receiving so much my heart just goes out to give back.

When I was younger we lived on nothing. Many times my mother didn't have a car and had to take the bus to work. Us kids rode our bicycles two miles to school. The church school allowed us to attend for the cost of our books. When we had a television it was black and white. For a time we didn't have a refrigerator. One Christmas the only gifts we got were what the firemen brought us and the black mother living in the apartment above ours hadn't signed her kids up so we gave half of what we received to her kids so they wouldn't have to do without. Our power and phone were shut of on several occasions because the bill wasn't paid. I recall many times when children at school made fun of me because my mother couldn't afford to get me a haircut. The only milk we could afford was dry milk. We ate a lot of rice but the only way my mother knew how to cook it was to boil it and serve it with milk (dry milk). I never had new clothing until I moved out of the house and bought some for myself. My first new pair of shoes were purchased for me by the Church Dorcus for my 8th grade graduation. Being poor wouldn't have been so bad if our family had love but there wasn't much of that either. There was abuse - sexual and physical. Today I see how God uses my upbringing to be sympathetic and helpful to others. It wasn't a waste, it was a training ground.

When I was in college I dated a girl for five years. She got pregnant at sixteen and her baby was two years old when I met her. She went to a community college for two years and got a vocational degree. She then went to the same university as me for five years and got a BS in bio-chemistry. She married a man whom she put through graduate school. He got his PhD in chemistry. She received welfare for well over five years (and in Minnesota of all places). There are literally thousands of stories like hers and mine.

The cold-hearted conservatives want to focus on the alcoholics and drug addicts that are on welfare. The reason those folks don't get off welfare is because of substance abuse. We don't need to throw out the baby with the bath water. We need to focus on addressing substance abuse.

The other reason many are on welfare is because of divorce or out-of-wedlock births. The solution there is marriage. Once they get married they normally come right off the welfare roll. When no substance abuse is involved, that is normally all it takes. Not many married couples that do not abuse drugs or alcohol are on welfare.

Welfare reform didn't work. There are no less people in poverty now than before welfare reform. My hat is off to President Obama for having the political courage to turn back the clock. I hope he increased the amount of food stamps like President Bush did. The food banks just can't keep up because the poor arn't getting enough food stamps.

[Dr. Shane]

Just to clarify. There are two classes of conservatives. There are the compassionate conservatives - like George W. Bush. Then there are the cold-hearted conservatives - like Pat Buchanan. So I am not trying to paint all conservatives with the same brush. I am a moderate - not a liberal or conservative.

[bonnie]

Quote:

I haven't forgotten where I came from. I earn enough money to drive a new car and live in a bigger house than I do, but that is not where my priorities lie. Much of my money is spent on charitable causes. After receiving so much my heart just goes out to give back.

Good glad you haven't.You are again responding to issues that were not raised.What you voluntarily give from your own labor is no one's business.What you demand others do is and then go on to condemn.

Quote:

When I was younger we lived on nothing. Many times my mother didn't have a car and had to take the bus to work. Us kids rode our bicycles two miles to school. The church school allowed us to attend for the cost of our books. When we had a television it was black and white. For a time we didn't have a refrigerator. One Christmas the only gifts we got were what the firemen brought us and the black mother living in the apartment above ours hadn't signed her kids up so we gave half of what we received to he kids so they wouldn't have to do without. Our power and phone were shut of on several occasions because the bill wasn't paid. I recall many times when children at school made fun of me because my mother could afford to get me a haircut. The only milk we could afford was dry milk. We ate a lot of rice but the only way my mother knew how to cook it was to boil it and serve it with milk (dry milk). I never had new clothing until I moved out of the house and bought some for myself. My first new pair of shoes were purchased for me by the Church Dorcus for my 8th grade graduation. Being poor wouldn't have been so bad if our family had love but there wasn't much of that either. There was abuse - sexual and physical. Today I see how God uses my upbringing to be sympathetic and helpful to others. It wasn't a waste, it was a training ground.

Sometimes those experiences even help people not to be so judgmental.In ways you had more than we did.

And so what? It is what we each make of our lives.

Us kids rode our bicycles two miles to school. The church school allowed us to attend for the cost of our books. When we had a television it was black and white.

The above is hardly a hardship. We walked,didn't have bikes,we couldn't afford them. 2.5 miles each way and in all weather.TV was non-existent.Not B&W

I don't think I would be to crazy about rice made that way but from my perspective it was better than a empty plate.

Again so what??

Quote:

When I was in college I dated a girl for five years. She got pregnant at sixteen and her baby was two years old when I met her. She went to a community college for two years and got a vocational degree. She then went to the same university as me for five years and got a BS in bio-chemistry. She married a man whom she put through graduate school. He got his PhD in chemistry. She received welfare for well over five years (and in Minnesota of all places). There are literally thousands of stories like hers and mine.

Perhaps you have missed something here. Not one word has been said about not giving a hand to a young mother.Only your baseless accusations and then posturing as to what a christian you are. The last I looked christian meant honest as well.MN has always had some of the more generous welfare benefit programs. Five years is a generous amount of time. Even if still tough going they should be able to go on their own.

But again you know that this was not about those that go after it,it was about those that really had no intention of getting off welfare until forced.

Quote:

The cold-hearted conservatives want to focus on the alcoholics and drug addicts that are on welfare. The reason those folks don't get off welfare is because of substance abuse. We don't need to throw out the baby with the bath water. We need to focus on addressing substance abuse.

Again you are saying something that is not true. Most private programs are started and financed by those cold hearted conservatives even with MN being a liberal state.

One of the most successful programs here was started and still is basically run by those you so freely condemn.Clothing,shelters and many other things are provided by one woman,that nasty cold hearted conservative

Resources get stretched pretty thin for those that really try. Trying to support all addicts cannot be done.

Quote:

The other reason many are on welfare is because of divorce or out-of-wedlock births. The solution there is marriage. Once they get married they normally come right off the welfare roll. When no substance abuse is involved, that is normally all it takes. Not many married couples that do not abuse drugs or alcohol are on welfare.

Thanks for sharing that.You seem to think you are the only person aware of needs of others.

Most that have their baby while young do not normally marry the child's father.They stay on welfare and have more children

Quote:

Welfare reform didn't work. There are no less people in poverty now than before welfare reform. My hat is off to President Obama for having the political courage to turn back the clock. I hope he increased the amount of food stamps like President Bush did. The food banks just can't keep up because the poor arn't getting enough food stamps.

As wise as you think you are,welfare reform worked for many. The food banks normally are not used by people on food stamps.

The food selfs can't keep up because of the economy.

They maybe need to learn how to cook healthy meals.Surprising how far the food dollar can go.

[bonnie]

Just to clarify. There are two classes of conservatives. There are the compassionate conservatives - like George W. Bush. Then there are the cold-hearted conservatives - like Pat Buchanan. So I am not trying to paint all conservatives with the same brush. I am a moderate - not a liberal or conservative.

They are not cold hearted because they are conservative.They were that way without a political affliation.

You have painted exactly who you wanted to paint.No regard for what was actually said,making up objections to statments that were not made.

[Dr. Shane]

No, there is a conservative train of thought that makes one cold-hearted. And one has to be very aware of that when listening to and reading conservative commentators.

There is also a liberal train of thought that makes one very secular-minded. And one has to be very aware of that when listening to and reading liberal commentators.

[Dr. Shane]

We walked,didn't have bikes,we couldn't afford them. 2.5 miles each way and in all weather.TV was non-existent.Not B&W

Man had actually walked on the moon already when I was born.

[Dr. Shane]

MN has always had some of the more generous welfare benefit programs. Five years is a generous amount of time.

Nope. Sorry. Not true. Five years is not a generous amount of time which goes to show MN has not always had some of the most generous benefit programs.

Five years = Cold-hearted. I am not big on taking bread out of the mouths of poor children after five years. Children crying hungry at bedtime just does seem like good public policy to me. Although I know many cold-hearted conservatives disagree. I mean,,, really,, if the mother can work as a prostitute why should she get food stamps? God bless President Bush that he didn't think that way. And God bless President Obama too.