Stan Posted December 24, 2009 Posted December 24, 2009 Is the real issue, can one have victory over sin or not? AND what is sin?, in words that can be put into one sentence. If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com
BobRyan Posted December 24, 2009 Posted December 24, 2009 1. Sin is transgression of God's Law - God's WORD is Law. 2. I believe (in the most optimistic way) that both sides agree that victory over sin is not only possible - but real in this life. For example that wife-beater that becomes a Christian does not simply "continue as usual - but magic accounting now says he is just fine doing it.". Rather both sides would agree that he must "git the victry". The same is true of the prostitute, mass murderer, child molester etc. We have a whole list of "sins" for which "gittin the victry" is fully expected by ALL. A pastor that is convicted of being a conn-artist, womanizer, extortionist etc cannot continue saying "oh well we all have sins -- no sense in pretending that we can git the victry now". Nobody here is going to stay with that kind of "no sense in victory over sin" pastor unless they actually DO "git the victry". Though we do have a number of TV evangelists that have ended up there in the past. 3. Where all the fuss and division comes in -- is when ALL sins are placed under the "must git the victry" category -- not just the really socially-unnacceptable kind listed above. Thus we have created a division between the "sacred" and the "profane" among sins. So "gossip" for example as long as it is just done "a very little" is not something to "get the victry over" for many people (at least not as a MUST). The same is true of coveting or devotion to certain pet idols etc. Many things on that list of "must not touch that sin from the pulpit - as if we REALLY need to actually stop doing it in real life". And we come by that mistake honestly since we all can imagine that our church offers may very well "covet" or be devoted to some cherished idol, or may engage now and then in a tiny bit of unhelpful gossip, or non-pristine entertainment etc... But to find out that they are engaged in criminal child abuse or wife abuse or ... would not be treated the I-don't-care response of the form "oh well that is fine I am sure everyone has a problem like that" - We all want absolute freedom from punishment on those sacred sins - fully covered and "no problem". But not everyone is willing to admit that the bible is in fact providing through the Gospel - complete victory for those sins just as for the others (taking EVERY THOUGHT captive to the obedience of Christ 2Cor 10) 4. The other avenue for the "fuss" is the whole Rev 15 problem with the sanctuary service shutting down just before the start of the 7 last plagues - making 2Cor 10 "victory" a MUST for those living at the end of time - on THAT point there will be "fussn". It leaves everyone gasping for air - it looks to some like the "M.J. hanging the baby over the railing" video clip. in Christ, Bob John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Woody Posted December 24, 2009 Posted December 24, 2009 Quote: Can? May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted December 24, 2009 Posted December 24, 2009 Quote: Sin? singular or plural? May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Stan Posted December 24, 2009 Author Posted December 24, 2009 Bob - - - That is the longest sentence I have seen. Redwood - Single or plural, does that really matter? If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com
Woody Posted December 24, 2009 Posted December 24, 2009 Redwood - Single or plural, does that really matter? Well ... it sure does appear to matter to some here. That's why I asked. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Robert Posted December 24, 2009 Posted December 24, 2009 Single or plural, does that really matter? Sure....sins are the result of sin (iniquity). Outward sins are based on our inward bent-to-self. Everything we do, even the good things, without Christ are polluted with egocentric motives. Agape is a selfless love. Where you have self-interest...where you have "self" you have sin. As I've pointed out many times true love doesn't live for its own wealth, but rather its neighbor. Hence in heaven none will think of self....This is the essence of the law of God. Anything, any slight deviation from "agape", is sin. Now there are those who reduce God's law of agape to rules they can keep and then exclaim, "I am keeping God's law". Rob
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted December 24, 2009 Members Posted December 24, 2009 I thought sin was anything that separated a person from God. Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
BobRyan Posted December 24, 2009 Posted December 24, 2009 Bob - - - That is the longest sentence I have seen. Sorry about that - I got caught up in the first part of your OP before noticing the "all in one sentence" part. John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Woody Posted December 24, 2009 Posted December 24, 2009 I thought sin was anything that separated a person from God. Good One Pam. I like that. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Stan Posted December 24, 2009 Author Posted December 24, 2009 I thought sin was anything that separated a person from God. Can that be defined in others? or only for oneself? If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com
Moderators John317 Posted December 24, 2009 Moderators Posted December 24, 2009 Yes, the Bible says our sins do separate us from God, but what is that? I think the best definition of sin is that it's disobedience to God's revealed will. If anyone asks what God's revealed will is, the Bible says God's will is His law. Ps. 40: 8. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted December 24, 2009 Posted December 24, 2009 Originally Posted By: rudywoofs I thought sin was anything that separated a person from God. Can that be defined in others? or only for oneself? WE are only to look at ourselves in this regard. Of course also ... our only example is Jesus ... not others. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted December 24, 2009 Posted December 24, 2009 Yes, the Bible says our sins do separate us from God, but what is that? I think the best definition of sin is that it's disobedience to God's revealed will. If anyone asks what God's revealed will is, the Bible says God's will is His law. Ps. 40: 8. Personally ... I prefer what Pam said. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted December 24, 2009 Members Posted December 24, 2009 It was defined many times in the Bible, i.e., Saul, David, pagans, so it stands to reason that it could be defined in others today. But I have plenty on my own plate to keep me concerned about myself. I think that's true with most people. Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
olger Posted December 24, 2009 Posted December 24, 2009 Rational post, Bob. You know..I am convinced that we will all look back on this era one day and see it as an incredibly low point in spiritual discipline. Including myself here. og "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
Guest Posted December 25, 2009 Posted December 25, 2009 1. Sin is transgression of God's Law - God's WORD is Law. 2. I believe (in the most optimistic way) that both sides agree that victory over sin is not only possible - but real in this life. For example that wife-beater that becomes a Christian does not simply "continue as usual - but magic accounting now says he is just fine doing it.". Rather both sides would agree that he must "git the victry". The same is true of the prostitute, mass murderer, child molester etc. We have a whole list of "sins" for which "gittin the victry" is fully expected by ALL. A pastor that is convicted of being a conn-artist, womanizer, extortionist etc cannot continue saying "oh well we all have sins -- no sense in pretending that we can git the victry now". Nobody here is going to stay with that kind of "no sense in victory over sin" pastor unless they actually DO "git the victry". Though we do have a number of TV evangelists that have ended up there in the past. 3. Where all the fuss and division comes in -- is when ALL sins are placed under the "must git the victry" category -- not just the really socially-unnacceptable kind listed above. Thus we have created a division between the "sacred" and the "profane" among sins. So "gossip" for example as long as it is just done "a very little" is not something to "get the victry over" for many people (at least not as a MUST). The same is true of coveting or devotion to certain pet idols etc. Many things on that list of "must not touch that sin from the pulpit - as if we REALLY need to actually stop doing it in real life". And we come by that mistake honestly since we all can imagine that our church offers may very well "covet" or be devoted to some cherished idol, or may engage now and then in a tiny bit of unhelpful gossip, or non-pristine entertainment etc... But to find out that they are engaged in criminal child abuse or wife abuse or ... would not be treated the I-don't-care response of the form "oh well that is fine I am sure everyone has a problem like that" - We all want absolute freedom from punishment on those sacred sins - fully covered and "no problem". But not everyone is willing to admit that the bible is in fact providing through the Gospel - complete victory for those sins just as for the others (taking EVERY THOUGHT captive to the obedience of Christ 2Cor 10) 4. The other avenue for the "fuss" is the whole Rev 15 problem with the sanctuary service shutting down just before the start of the 7 last plagues - making 2Cor 10 "victory" a MUST for those living at the end of time - on THAT point there will be "fussn". It leaves everyone gasping for air - it looks to some like the "M.J. hanging the baby over the railing" video clip. in Christ, Bob Yep
Stan Posted December 25, 2009 Author Posted December 25, 2009 this is the same old same old.. If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com
Robert Posted December 25, 2009 Posted December 25, 2009 this is the same old same old.. Yes, it is...if only good Christian folks could see it....
Robert Posted December 25, 2009 Posted December 25, 2009 Stan, I think this statement by EGW says it all: "So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. [AA 560] Some points: Besetting sins are sins of repetition....Addictive sins...sins of impulse...sins of habit. These we can gain the victory over as we learn to walk in the spirit.... On the other hand our life span is limited....While we do grow in grace it is not the same as perfection. According to EGW it is not attainable. Perfection means living a life where there is no sin at all. I'm not sure about the 144,000, it seems they do reach spiritual maturity...but that is a special group during the time of Jacob's trouble.
pnattmbtc Posted December 25, 2009 Posted December 25, 2009 There are many ways to approach the question of what is sin. One answer is sin is that which is contrary to love (e.g. agape). Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Woody Posted December 25, 2009 Posted December 25, 2009 Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen this is the same old same old.. Yes, it is...if only good Christian folks could see it.... Yes. We do need to get back to our old roots . I mean way back after the legalism of the Jews was squashed. But it is creeping back nowadays. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
WayneV Posted December 25, 2009 Posted December 25, 2009 Is the real issue, can one have victory over sin or not? WayneV Just remember these words of warning, for they will come to pass all too soon: If you are ever flying through the desert and your canoe breaks down, remember that it takes three pancakes to lift the doghouse, because there ain't nary a bone in ice cream!
Moderators John317 Posted December 25, 2009 Moderators Posted December 25, 2009 Is the real issue, can one have victory over sin or not? Yes, through the power of the Holy Spirit in the life, we can experience victory over sin. This doesn't mean that we can experience victory over ALL sin in our lives at once. God is not even asking us to overcome all sin right now. God is asking us to follow the Spirit's leading and overcome the sins that He's convicted us of, and that we're aware of, one step at a time. Once we've overcome one particular sin, the Spirit of God will show us another. The Holy Spirit won't overwhelm us or discourage us but will lovingly lead us as we follow. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
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