Victory over sin...

[oldsailor29]

... Perfection means living a life where there is no sin at all. ...

Well - that is the western or Greek idea of perfection, but it was an unknown idea in the Bible. Perfection in the Bible does indeed refer to growth.

[pnattmbtc]

Yes, through the power of the Holy Spirit in the life, we can experience victory over sin. This doesn't mean that we can experience victory over ALL sin in our lives at once. God is not even asking us to overcome all sin right now. God is asking us to follow the Spirit's leading and overcome the sins that He's convicted us of, and that we're aware of, one step at a time. Once we've overcome one particular sin, the Spirit of God will show us another. The Holy Spirit won't overwhelm us or discourage us but will lovingly lead us as we follow.

I agree with this, and think it's well stated.

There's another aspect which is often overlooked, I think, which is in regards to God's character. If we have wrong concepts of God's character, that can lead us to do things contrary to His will when we think we are actually doing His will. This unknown sins, which have to do with our paradigms, I think are particularly challenging for God to make known to us, as our tendencies is to defend our paradigms very strongly.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

(Robert, quoting EGW)It(sin) is the outworking of a principle at war with the great law of love [agape] which is the foundation of the divine government. [GC 492]

I think this is a great way (the best that comes to mind) of conceptualizing sin.

[Tom Wetmore]

...Perfection in the Bible does indeed refer to growth.

This is consistent with Jesus' statement of "First the blade, then the ear..." But Jesus said directly to be perfect even as the Father in heaven is perfect. That seems to suggest a state of being rather than a process of growth. Does God grow?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: oldsailor29

...Perfection in the Bible does indeed refer to growth.

This is consistent with Jesus' statement of "First the blade, then the ear..." But Jesus said directly to be perfect even as the Father in heaven is perfect. That seems to suggest a state of being rather than a process of growth. Does God grow?

the definition of that "perfection" is merciful. lukes story is the exact same one as matthews but luke understood "perfect" to mean "merciful".

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Luk 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

by this definition it makes one wonder how many will be in heaven with the "right doctrines", etc.

[Robert]

There are many ways to approach the question of what is sin. One answer is sin is that which is contrary to love (e.g. agape).

That's the only real definition.

Rob

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen

Is the real issue, can one have victory over sin or not?

Yes, through the power of the Holy Spirit in the life, we can experience victory over sin. This doesn't mean that we can experience victory over ALL sin in our lives at once. God is not even asking us to overcome all sin right now. God is asking us to follow the Spirit's leading and overcome the sins that He's convicted us of, and that we're aware of, one step at a time. Once we've overcome one particular sin, the Spirit of God will show us another. The Holy Spirit won't overwhelm us or discourage us but will lovingly lead us as we follow.

Okay, but not to save us....We already stand perfect in Christ.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Through the power of the Holy Spirit in the life, we can experience victory over sin. This doesn't mean that we can experience victory over ALL sin in our lives at once. God is not even asking us to overcome all sin right now. God is asking us to follow the Spirit's leading and overcome the sins that He's convicted us of, and that we're aware of, one step at a time. Once we've overcome one particular sin, the Spirit of God will show us another. The Holy Spirit won't overwhelm us or discourage us but will lovingly lead us as we follow.

Okay, but not to save us....We already stand perfect in Christ.

"Through defects in the character, Satan works to gain control of the whole mind, and he knows that if these defects are cherished, he will succeed. Therefore he is constantly seeking to deceive the followers of Christ with his fatal sophistry that it is impossible for them to overcome" (The Great Controversy, p. 489).

"Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort they must be conquerors in the battle with evil" (The Great Controversy, p. 426).

We are preparing to meet Him who, escorted by a retinue of holy angels, is to appear in the clouds of heaven to give the faithful and the just the finishing touch of immortality. When He comes He is not to cleanse us of our sins, to remove from us the defects in our characters, or to cure us of the infirmities of our tempers and dispositions. If wrought for us at all, this work will all be accomplished before that time. When the Lord comes, those who are holy will be holy still. Those who have preserved their bodies and spirits in holiness, in sanctification and honor, will then receive the finishing touch of immortality. But those who are unjust, unsanctified, and filthy will remain so forever. No work will then be done for them to remove their defects and give them holy characters. The Refiner does not then sit to pursue His refining process and remove their sins and their corruption. This is all to be done in these hours of probation. It is now that this work is to be accomplished for us. Ellen G. White Testimonies for the Church Volume Two (1868-1871), page 355, paragraph 1

[John317]

Originally Posted By: oldsailor29

...Perfection in the Bible does indeed refer to growth.

This is consistent with Jesus' statement of "First the blade, then the ear..." But Jesus said directly to be perfect even as the Father in heaven is perfect. That seems to suggest a state of being rather than a process of growth. Does God grow?

Perfection doesn't preclude a process of growth. In the Bible perfection [Gk. teleios, Strongs #5455] has to do with maturity. Just as babies may be perfect for babies but need to change if they are going to be perfect as adults, so a mature believer won't be the same 5 or 10 years after baptism as he was the day he accepted Christ.

Jesus didn't mean for us to think God expects us to be perfect in God's sphere but in our own individual sphere. He's saying we are to be complete in our character as God is complete in His character. God's character doesn't change but ours definitely will if we're living in the Spirit.

Does God grow? I don't believe He does but Alfred North Whitehead did and Wolfhart Pannenberg does. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfhart_Pannenberg

[WayneV]

Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen

AND what is sin?, in words that can be put into one sentence.

"Whatever is not from faith is sin" (Romans 14:23, last part).

I wonder why there are no comments on the above. It was even verified by our Lord and Savior when He stated, "And He (the holy Spirit), when He comes, will convict the world...concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me" (John 16:8-9, NASB, ellipses and parentheses mine).

[John317]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

There are many ways to approach the question of what is sin. One answer is sin is that which is contrary to love (e.g. agape).

That's the only real definition.

Yes, but what exactly does it mean? The problem is that people have all kinds of different views of what love is and what it permits them to do. See a discussion of this in the book, Situation Ethics. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Situational_ethics

If that is all we had to go by, many people would completely misunderstand it and use it as a reason to sin. So I see it as a good definition but one that needs 1 John 3: 4, as illustrated below:

Quote:

Fletcher's model of Situational Ethics appears reasonable upon a glance, yet given careful consideration, its flaw becomes apparent. Situational Ethics is based upon "God is Love" in I John 4:8. However, in the very next chapter we read, "This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome" (I John 5:3). While Fletcher holds that any commandment may be broken in good conscience if Love is one's intention, the Bible states that the keeping of God's commandments is loving God. To break any commandment, regardless of your intentions, is to not love God. Therefore, logic holds that the breaking of the commandment was not done in Love.

[John317]

the definition of that "perfection" is merciful. lukes story is the exact same one as matthews but luke understood "perfect" to mean "merciful".

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Luk 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

Yes, even the context of Matt. 5: 48 is that we're to be perfect [or mature] in the way we treat people. It calls us to treat people as unselfishly as God does. See verses 45, 46. Jesus is saying we are to observe how God relates to people and then apply those principles to the human sphere.

Quote:

by this definition it makes one wonder how many will be in heaven with the "right doctrines", etc.

What Jesus said does not rule out the importance of sound doctrines. Without true doctrines, people are led into all kinds of false beliefs about God and salvation, which in turn leads to destruction. We're sanctified by truth, God's Word. John 17: 17. See, for instance, Gal. 1: 6-9; 2 Tim. 3: 15-17; Titus 1: 9, 11; 2 Peter 3: 15-16; Rev. 2: 14, 15.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Okay, but not to save us....We already stand perfect in Christ.[/quote']

"Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort they must be conquerors in the battle with evil" (The Great Controversy, p. 426).

So our position "in Christ" is not the basis of our salvation...we must do something...we must add to Christ's perfect work. This is heresy.

[Robert]

Jesus didn't mean for us to think God expects us to be perfect in God's sphere but in our own individual sphere.

You are using EGW, not the context of Matt 5:48. You are again setting her up as the measuring stick of truth and thereby superimposing her words over what the context clearly states:

Therefore you shall be perfect, [how perfect?] just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

It doesn't say, "Therefore you shall be perfect like God, but in your own individual sphere."

What you are doing here reduces God's law down to rules that you can keep and then you can exclaim, "I am keeping the law"!

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: WayneV

"Whatever is not from faith is sin" (Romans 14:23, last part). [/quote']

I wonder why there are no comments on the above. It was even verified by our Lord and Savior when He stated, "And He (the holy Spirit), when He comes, will convict the world...concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me" (John 16:8-9, NASB, ellipses and parentheses mine).

This is true in realm of grace, not law....

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

That's the only real definition.

Yes' date=' but what exactly does it mean? [/quote']

Look at Christ's selfless life...a life of self-denial...a life of selflessness...a life being "the servant of all"! That's agape....That's the fulfillment of the law

[Robert]

What you are doing here reduces God's law down to rules that you can keep and then you can exclaim, "I am keeping the law"!

The law of Jehovah is exceedingly broad. Jesus . . . plainly declared to His disciples that this holy law of God may be violated in even the thoughts and feelings and desires, as well as in the word and deed. The heart that loves God supremely will not in any way be inclined to narrow down His precepts to the very smallest possible claims, but the obedient, loyal soul will cheerfully render full spiritual obedience when the law is seen in its spiritual power. Then will the commandments come home to the soul in their real force. Sin will appear exceedingly sinful. . . . There is no longer self-righteousness, self-esteem, self-honor. Self-security is gone (i.e., self-security in one's "self-righteousness, self-esteem, self-honor"). Deep conviction of sin and self-loathing is the result, and the soul in its desperate sense of peril lays hold on the blood of the Lamb of God as his only remedy. . . . [OHC 140]

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

What you are doing here reduces God's law down to rules that you can keep and then you can exclaim, "I am keeping the law"!

The law of Jehovah is exceedingly broad. Jesus . . . plainly declared to His disciples that this holy law of God may be violated in even the thoughts and feelings and desires, as well as in the word and deed. The heart that loves God supremely will not in any way be inclined to narrow down His precepts to the very smallest possible claims, but the obedient, loyal soul will cheerfully render full spiritual obedience when the law is seen in its spiritual power. Then will the commandments come home to the soul in their real force. Sin will appear exceedingly sinful. . . . There is no longer self-righteousness, self-esteem, self-honor. Self-security is gone (i.e., self-security in one's "self-righteousness, self-esteem, self-honor"). Deep conviction of sin and self-loathing is the result, and the soul in its desperate sense of peril lays hold on the blood of the Lamb of God as his only remedy. . . . [OHC 140]

Commenting on 1 John 1:8, EGW says:

It is evident that where a claim to sinlessness is made, there the law of God has not been written in the heart; for the commandments of God are exceeding broad, and are discerners of the thoughts and intents of the heart. The apostle speaks words of encouragement to those who realize that they are sinners, and says, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all righteousness.” “If we say we have no sin,” when our thoughts, words, and actions, reflected from the law of God, the great moral mirror, reveal us as transgressors, we make God a liar, and prove that his word is not in us.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: John317

Yes' date=' but what exactly does it mean? [/quote']

Look at Christ's selfless life...a life of self-denial...a life of selflessness...a life being "the servant of all"! That's agape....That's the fulfillment of the law

YES YES. Exactly. Far too many SDAs try to diminish God's law and put it in a perspective where they can think they are actually keeping it. But God calls us to do far more than we might think. He wants more than the letter of the law.

He wants our HEART

Edit: I see now that your later posts have more fully explained this. I should have known we are on the same page. Ha Ha. Way to go Rob.

[Woody]

Part of the issue here on this thread is whether one believes in Hematology or Theology. And we must make a choice of one or the other.

[Robert]

I see now that your later posts have more fully explained this.

This?

The heart that loves God supremely will not in any way be inclined to narrow down His precepts to the very smallest possible claims,....Sin will appear exceedingly sinful. . . . There is no longer self-righteousness, self-esteem, self-honor. Self-security is gone (i.e., self-security in one's "self-righteousness, self-esteem, self-honor"). Deep conviction of sin and self-loathing is the result, and the soul in its desperate sense of peril lays hold on the blood of the Lamb of God as his only remedy. . . .

[Steve Billiter]

Originally Posted By: Robert

The law of Jehovah is exceedingly broad. Jesus . . . plainly declared to His disciples that this holy law of God may be violated in even the thoughts and feelings and desires, as well as in the word and deed. The heart that loves God supremely will not in any way be inclined to narrow down His precepts to the very smallest possible claims, but the obedient, loyal soul will cheerfully render full spiritual obedience when the law is seen in its spiritual power. Then will the commandments come home to the soul in their real force. Sin will appear exceedingly sinful. . . . There is no longer self-righteousness, self-esteem, self-honor. Self-security is gone (i.e., self-security in one's "self-righteousness, self-esteem, self-honor"). Deep conviction of sin and self-loathing is the result, and the soul in its desperate sense of peril lays hold on the blood of the Lamb of God as his only remedy. . . . [OHC 140']

Commenting on 1 John 1:8, EGW says:

It is evident that where a claim to sinlessness is made, there the law of God has not been written in the heart; for the commandments of God are exceeding broad, and are discerners of the thoughts and intents of the heart. The apostle speaks words of encouragement to those who realize that they are sinners, and says, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all righteousness.” “If we say we have no sin,” when our thoughts, words, and actions, reflected from the law of God, the great moral mirror, reveal us as transgressors, we make God a liar, and prove that his word is not in us.

No one is making a claim to sinlessness, however:

Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

None need fail of attaining, in his sphere, to perfection of Christian character. By the sacrifice of Christ, provision has been made for the believer to receive all things that pertain to life and godliness. God calls upon us to reach the standard of perfection and places before us the example of Christ's character. In His humanity, perfected by a life of constant resistance of evil, the Saviour showed that through co-operation with Divinity, human beings may in this life attain to perfection of character. This is God's assurance to us that we, too, may obtain complete victory.

532

{AA 531.2}

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Commenting on 1 John 1:8, EGW says:

It is evident that where a claim to sinlessness is made, there the law of God has not been written in the heart; for the commandments of God are exceeding broad, and are discerners of the thoughts and intents of the heart. The apostle speaks words of encouragement to those who realize that they are sinners, and says, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all righteousness.” “If we say we have no sin,” when our thoughts, words, and actions, reflected from the law of God, the great moral mirror, reveal us as transgressors, we make God a liar, and prove that his word is not in us.

No one is making a claim to sinlessness, however:... None need fail of attaining, in his sphere, to perfection of Christian character.

Okay, so you watered the law down. Now you are seeking partial credit? What Christ did 2000 years ago + my best? That's a form of subtle legalism....

[Woody]

"Part of the issue here on this thread is whether one believes in Hematology or Theology. And we must make a choice of one or the other."

[Steve Billiter]

who watered the law down?

In the judgment, we will soon find out who the dogs really are won't we?

Rev 22:15 For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and fornicators, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.