Conditional Forgiveness

[Stewart (SDA)]

Conditional Forgiveness

Jesus taught a principle in the parable of the two debtors (Matt 18:23-35). Paraphrasing that parable:

A King had a servant who owed him a huge amount of money; but, being unable to pay the debt, and expressing genuine contrition, the King forgave the man the debt. But that very same servant knew another man (a fellow-servant) who had a small outstanding debt to him, and that man, being unable to repay the debt, asked to be forgiven. But the first man refused to forgive the debt, and cast him into prison until he should pay it all.

The King, hearing about this, immediately withdrew his forgiveness and re-instated the debt.

Jesus then makes the fearful point of the illustration. He explains, "So likewise shall my Heavenly Father do also to you, if you from your hearts do not forgive every one his brother their trespasses."

This teaches, in my view, the conditional nature of forgiveness, and shows how past forgiveness can be nullified by sin. Sins (debts) that were once forgiven, may effectively be re-instated.

(Note. Forgiveness of sin is not the same thing, I think, as the "blotting out" of sin.)

Stewart.

[Woody]

Quote:

Sounds like works rears it ugly head again!! I work daily to appease God, not much of a relationship!

I have to agree with you on this one CoA ... Some people worship a different God than I do. Or should I say that some people work for a different God.

[BobRyan]

Conditional Forgiveness

Jesus taught a principle in the parable of the two debtors (Matt 18:23-35). Paraphrasing that parable:

...

This teaches, in my view, the conditional nature of forgiveness, and shows how past forgiveness can be nullified by sin. Sins (debts) that were once forgiven, may effectively be re-instated.

(Note. Forgiveness of sin is not the same thing, I think, as the "blotting out" of sin.)

Stewart.

That is correct. WE see the same thing in Ezek 18.

There is no such thing as "half forgiven in heaven" or "half forgiven in hell" or a "half forgiven saint".

One is either fully forgiven or they are lost and are facing the full debt for all their sins in the lake of fire.

No half-way house in the Gospel.

And no OSAS (once saved always saved) fiction in the Gospel.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

I have to agree with you on this one CoA ... Some people worship a different God than I do. Or should I say that some people work for a different God.

Calvinists often say that about Arminians when Arminians point out the inconvenient detail from scripture that there is no such thing as Once Saved Always saved as we see in Matt 18 and Ezek 18.

I see that all the time.

in Christ,

Bob

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

If you die before you confess a sin, doesn't God look at the *way* you were trying to live, i.e. the trend of your life was towards God? And not count the unconfessed sin against you?

[teresaq]

that would seem so, unless we want to believe Jesus was lying about the thief on the cross.

[teresaq]

Quote:

Sins (debts) that were once forgiven, may effectively be re-instated.

A total misapplication! This is just an other example of the 'Golden Rule'. Treat others as you have been treated. You would have us believe God is standing around 'hanging' past sins over our heads that he has aleady forgiven as a threat to continued performance of not sinning??

Sounds like works rears it ugly head again!! I work daily to appease God, not much of a relationship!

i dont know stewart, so i dont really know how he understands this, but i have to get specific as opposed to theoretical in order to understand something.

so, lets say, for example, im a calculating manipulator. i "know" how to push buttons and manipulate in order to make others look bad while i look "calm, cool and collected".

but God finally convicts me of what im doing and i start leaving it off. maybe i even have finally done the 180 and am not even tempted to do it any longer.

but then one day i give into a little. then a little more. then i eventually end up that full-blown coldly calculating manipulator all over again.

so, im back in the same position i was before. yes, i was forgiven before, but i have "re-instated" those sins again.

did that make any sense?

[Gerr]

Just tagging on.

What is often forgotten but which the Preadvent Judgment makes clear to me is this:

1. God keeps records, the Bible clearly teaches this.

2. A sinner is forgiven and her/his name written in the Book of Life at repentance & conversion.

3. Sins may be forgiven but not blotted out or preserved UNTIL one's name comes up in the judgment. This is the point at which one's salvation is either confirmed or denied. Sins are not blotted out the moment one confesses and then retrieved again everytime one falls into sin.

4. This is where the condtional nature of forgiveness as taught in the parable falls short with what the rest of Scripture teaches.

[pnattmbtc]

I quoted this recently in a different thread, but I think it bears repeating here:

Quote:

We need to be on our guard against the idea that the

blotting out of sin is merely as the passing of a sponge

over a slate, or an entry in a ledger, to balance the

account. This is not the blotting out of sin. An ignorant

man who saw a thermometer for the first time thought to

lessen the heat by breaking it. But how much effect did

this have upon the weather? -- Just as much as the wiping

out of the record of his sin has upon the sinner.

When Moses broke the tables of stone, the law was just

as steadfast as it was before. Just so, though all the

record of all our sin, even though written with the finger

of God, were erased, the sin would remain, because the sin

is in us. Though the record of our sin were graven in the

rock, and the rock should be ground to powder, -- even this

would not blot out our sin.

The blotting out of sin is the erasing of it from the

nature, the being of man. The blood of Jesus Christ cleanses from all sin.

I think our understand is bound to be way off if we conceptualize the issue involved as a legal one instead of a real one. That is, the books of heaven simply represent the registering of reality. This is the point Waggoner is making.

The reason that forgiven sin returns in the life of one who renounces his repentance is that he has returned to a life of sin.

[phkrause]

If you die before you confess a sin, doesn't God look at the *way* you were trying to live, i.e. the trend of your life was towards God? And not count the unconfessed sin against you?

I agree with this rudywoofs.

pk

[Gerr]

Do you think the records of heaven are literal?

[karl]

I

I think our understand is bound to be way off if we conceptualize the issue involved as a legal one instead of a real one. That is, the books of heaven simply represent the registering of reality. This is the point Waggoner is making.

The reason that forgiven sin returns in the life of one who renounces his repentance is that he has returned to a life of sin.

I agree. I think in the parable, the man was really and permanently forgiven his original debt. He was given a new penalty when he sinned against his fellow servant. The lesson is the same as Christ taught in the Lord's prayer.

When God says of our confessed and forsaken sins that He "will remember them no more" I think we can take that to the bank.

God said of David: "And it shall be, if thou wilt hearken unto all that I command thee, and wilt walk in my ways, and do that is right in my sight, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as David my servant did;..." This is after Uriah and Bathsheba. But David had repented, so God's testimony of him was that he did all that He commanded him.

[teresaq]

Do you think the records of heaven are literal?

do you see your understanding as vs waggoners teaching?

trying to understand your point. :)

[teresaq]

I quoted this recently in a different thread, but I think it bears repeating here:

Quote:

We need to be on our guard against the idea that the

blotting out of sin is merely as the passing of a sponge

over a slate, or an entry in a ledger, to balance the

account. This is not the blotting out of sin. An ignorant

man who saw a thermometer for the first time thought to

lessen the heat by breaking it. But how much effect did

this have upon the weather? -- Just as much as the wiping

out of the record of his sin has upon the sinner.

When Moses broke the tables of stone, the law was just

as steadfast as it was before. Just so, though all the

record of all our sin, even though written with the finger

of God, were erased, the sin would remain, because the sin

is in us. Though the record of our sin were graven in the

rock, and the rock should be ground to powder, -- even this

would not blot out our sin.

The blotting out of sin is the erasing of it from the

nature, the being of man. The blood of Jesus Christ cleanses from all sin.

I think our understand is bound to be way off if we conceptualize the issue involved as a legal one instead of a real one. That is, the books of heaven simply represent the registering of reality. This is the point Waggoner is making.

The reason that forgiven sin returns in the life of one who renounces his repentance is that he has returned to a life of sin.

i have to agree. i gave one example, but another is of a person struggling to give up something, lets say a way of thinking. the person can be in a tug of war. they are being convicted that a certain way of thinking is wrong, but they havent fully caught on to the new way of thinking. hence the back and forth.

i see Jesus saying, "wait a bit longer. the person is struggling but hasnt made a final decision yet".

[pnattmbtc]

Do you think the records of heaven are literal?

I don't think heaven would be constrained by first century technology, so there needn't be literal books. I think there's literally some record that can be looked at by people or angels, because it's very important that the evidence be considered by sentient beings, primarily because of Satan's accusations against God (and there are other reasons these beings would desire to see these records).

However, the records aren't the salient point, but the reality which is recorded by the records, as Waggoner brought out so well.

[Steve Billiter]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Do you think the records of heaven are literal?

I don't think heaven would be constrained by first century technology, so there needn't be literal books. I think there's literally some record that can be looked at by people or angels, because it's very important that the evidence be considered by sentient beings, primarily because of Satan's accusations against God (and there are other reasons these beings would desire to see these records).

However, the records aren't the salient point, but the reality which is recorded by the records, as Waggoner brought out so well.

Since the Bible does not say the angels use computers with Word programs to record sin, and the word "book" is not symbolic prophecy, then it must be literal.Speculation never works for me.

Exo 32:32 Yet now, if you will forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray you, out of your book which you have written.

Exo 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever has sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Num 21:14 Therefore it is said in the Book of the Wars of the LORD, What he did in the Red Sea, and in the brooks of Arnon,

Deu 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it by the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against you.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which stands for the children of your people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time your people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

[pnattmbtc]

Since the Bible does not say the angels use computers with Word programs to record sin, and the word "book" is not symbolic prophecy, then it must be literal.

You don't think it's possible the Bible doesn't say angels use computers because they didn't exist? I hope you realize what the Bible calls "books" are nothing even resembling what we think of us books. They were very awkward to handle scrolls with bad ink. You really think it makes sense to suggest that angels are constrained by this terrible, archaic technology just because that's the way things were in Israel thousands of years ago?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Do you think the records of heaven are literal?

do you see your understanding as vs waggoners teaching?

trying to understand your point.

I have not read Waggoner except by the quotes, and those quotes seem to indicate he believes them to be merely conceptual aids rather than literal. The Bible talks a lot about God's books that I tend to believe they are literal. Whether they are literal books or not I can't be dogmatic, but I tend to believe they are literal RECORDS, whatever the form. If the saints are to judge angels (wicked) and the lost during the millennium, it has to be on the basis of available records. God doesn't records but His creatures do. If that's the case, then the judgment of the saved has to be also on the basis of available records.

[Woody]

The Judgment is really very simple. Either you stand before God on the basis of your works ... or you stand before God on the basis of what Jesus did. I stand before God a forgiven sinner.

I will be judged on the basis of what Jeus did 2,000 years ago. My good works and bad works are as filthy rags. They are worth nothing towards my salvation. I stand before God with the Robe of HIS Righteousness on my shoulders.

The wicked will stand before God and have THEIR works examined and if there be found ANY wicked way ... they will perish. And that takes only one sin to cause condemnation and the death sentence.

Therefore ... if you don't have on the Robe of HIS rightesousness from what HE did 2,000 years ago ... the works you have done ... even though Christ ... are worthless garbage.

[Gerr]

The Judgment is really very simple. Either you stand before God on the basis of your works ... or you stand before God on the basis of what Jesus did. I stand before God a forgiven sinner.

I will be judged on the basis of what Jeus did 2,000 years ago. My good works and bad works are as filthy rags. They are worth nothing towards my salvation. I stand before God with the Robe of HIS Righteousness on my shoulders.

And HOW will the universe KNOW that you ARE standing on the basis of Christ's works?

[Woody]

By the clothing I am wearing.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

The Judgment is really very simple. Either you stand before God on the basis of your works ... or you stand before God on the basis of what Jesus did. I stand before God a forgiven sinner.

I will be judged on the basis of what Jeus did 2,000 years ago. My good works and bad works are as filthy rags. They are worth nothing towards my salvation. I stand before God with the Robe of HIS Righteousness on my shoulders.

And HOW will the universe KNOW that you ARE standing on the basis of Christ's works?

Look Gerry. I know the answer you want. WORKS. But that is simply wrong. They will know I am HIS because I have repented of my wrongs and claim NO goodness of myself but wholely claim the merits of Jesus and His sacrifice on my behalf.

In the judgment scene ... I will shed my filthy rags and put on the Robe of HIS Righteousness. That change of clothing will save me.

"So I will be your representative in heaven. The Father beholds not your faulty character, but He sees you as clothed in My perfection." DA 357

God will not have the Universe fooled by 'good works'. For even the Devils have good works.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

And HOW will the universe KNOW that you ARE standing on the basis of Christ's works?

[/quote']

Look Gerry. I know the answer you want. WORKS. But that is simply wrong. They will know I am HIS because I have repented of my wrongs and claim NO goodness of myself but wholely claim the merits of Jesus and His sacrifice on my behalf.

In the judgment scene ... I will shed my filthy rags and put on the Robe of HIS Righteousness. That change of clothing will save me.

"So I will be your representative in heaven. The Father beholds not your faulty character, but He sees you as clothed in My perfection." DA 357

God will not have the Universe fooled by 'good works'. For even the Devils have good works.

James 1:22-25 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

{MB 146.1}

A mere profession of discipleship is of no value. The faith in Christ which saves the soul is not what it is represented to be by many. "Believe, believe," they say, "and you need not keep the law." But a belief that does not lead to obedience is presumption. The apostle John says, "He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1 John 2:4. Let none cherish the idea that special providences or miraculous manifestations are to be the proof of the genuineness of their work or of the ideas they advocate. When persons will speak lightly of the word of God, and set their impressions, feelings, and exercises above the divine standard, we may know that they have no light in them.

[Robert]

Look Gerry. I know the answer you want. WORKS.

[karl]

Is anyone here of the opinion that God is opposed to men doing what is right?

I think He is opposed to men doing what is wrong - opposed to them being transgressors of His will.

The teaching that men who strive to comply with God's will have fallen from grace is a "fatal delusion."

I want to stay away from stuff that is in that category.