Conditional Forgiveness

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Quote:

" By faith he can bring to God the merits of Christ, and the Lord places the obedience of His Son to the sinner's account. Christ's righteousness is accepted in place of man's failure, and God receives, pardons, justifies, the repentant, believing soul, treats him as though he were righteous, and loves him as He loves His Son. This is how faith is accounted righteousness; and the pardoned soul goes on from grace to grace, from light to a greater light. He can say with rejoicing, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; that being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life" (Titus 3:5-7). {1SM 367.1}

He Becomes Our Righteousness

How true, but she also has these to say:

{COL 315.2}

Many who call themselves Christians are mere human moralists. They have refused the gift which alone could enable them to honor Christ by representing Him to the world. The work of the Holy Spirit is to them a strange work. They are not doers of the word. The heavenly principles that distinguish those who are one with Christ from those who are one with the world have become almost indistinguishable. The professed followers of Christ are no longer a separate and peculiar people. The line of demarcation is indistinct. The people are subordinating themselves to the world, to its practices, its customs, its selfishness. The church has gone over to the world in transgression of the law, when the world should have come over to the church in obedience to the law. Daily the church is being converted to the world. {COL 315.3}

All these expect to be saved by Christ's death, while they refuse to live His self-sacrificing life. They extol the riches of free grace, and attempt to cover themselves with an appearance of righteousness, hoping to screen their defects of character; but their efforts will be of no avail in the day of God.

The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin. A man may be a law-breaker in heart; yet if he commits no outward act of transgression, he may be regarded by the world as possessing great integrity. But God's law looks into the secrets of the heart. Every act is judged by the motives that prompt it. Only that which is in accord with the principles of God's law will stand in the judgment

{SD 13.2}

Christ loves His church. He will give all needed help to those who call upon Him for strength for the development of Christlike character. But His love is not weakness. He will not serve with their sins or give them prosperity while they continue to follow a wrong course of action. Only by faithful repentance will their sins be forgiven; for God will not cover evil with the robe of His righteousness.

The world's Redeemer declares, "I have kept my Father's commandments." "I counsel thee," saith the True Witness, "to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear." Christ's righteousness will not cover the unrighteousness of any one. "All unrighteousness is sin," and "sin is the transgression of the law," therefore, those who are breaking the law of God and teaching others to break it, will not be covered with the garments of Christ's righteousness. He came not to save men in their sins; but from their sins. "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected; hereby know we that we are in him." These utterances are weighty, and should be duly considered. "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned [transgressed the law], we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." "My little children, these things I write unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." We need an advocate with the Father, because it is the Father's law that we have broken. We need to repent of our transgression, and return to our allegiance to God. "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins: and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not; whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." Here it is plainly stated that whosoever abideth in Christ will not be a transgressor of the law of God. {RH, July 24, 1888 par. 12}

it seems to me that the bolded part is saying the same thing your several paragraphs are. so, im at a loss as to what the either/or is as implied in your sentence.

or is there an implied accusation intended?

No implied accusation intended. But perhaps you may have missed several past posts of Redwood where he claims that he can/will willfully sin until he dies or until Jesus comes and yet remain saved because the robe of Christ's righteousness is in his possession, and used the EGW quote to back it up while either ignorant of her other statements or just disregarding them, hence prompting the other EGW quotes.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

[Gerr]

PS

What do you mean, "are they both in you?"

Thanks. Just asking for clarification.

[teresaq]

PS

What do you mean, "are they both in you?"

Thanks. Just asking for clarification.

[teresaq]

But perhaps you may have missed several past posts of Redwood where he claims that he can/will willfully sin until he dies or ....

i understood the point he was trying to make. those of us who know ourselves for one thing, and just how high the standard is for another, do, i think. :)

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

PS

What do you mean, "are they both in you?"

Thanks. Just asking for clarification.

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

The righteousness that is imputed in me is God's righteousness that I accept by faith.

The righteousness of Christ that is imparted in me is God's work done in me which by faith I accept for Him to do, through His indwelling Spirit.

are they both "in" you?

I have accepted both. But the "heart is deceitful above all things." Therefore whether both are truly in my possession or not, I prefer God or others who know me to bear witness.

[Tom Wetmore]

Quote:

Forgiveness is the divine reset button.

Therefore as long as I keep asking for forgiveness, the only one I am accountable for is the last one I did not ask forgiveness for?

What do you think?

If God says that when he forgives our sin that he will not remember our sin any more, what part of that don't you understand? When God says that he throws our sins into the depths of the sea, do you think he gets in a submarine to go back for it to give it back to you the next time you screw up?

What was Jesus' answer to Peter's question, "How many times are you to keep forgiving someone who keeps harming you?" Are you supposed to keep track so that when you get to 491 you can stop forgiving them?

If someone keeps bringing up past wrongs when they say they have forgiven you, do you wonder if they really meant it? Might you question their sincerity?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Quote:

Forgiveness is the divine reset button.

Therefore as long as I keep asking for forgiveness, the only one I am accountable for is the last one I did not ask forgiveness for?

What do you think?

If God says that when he forgives our sin that he will not remember our sin any more, what part of that don't you understand? When God says that he throws our sins into the depths of the sea, do you think he gets in a submarine to go back for it to give it back to you the next time you screw up?

What was Jesus' answer to Peter's question, "How many times are you to keep forgiving someone who keeps harming you?" Are you supposed to keep track so that when you get to 491 you can stop forgiving them?

If someone keeps bringing up past wrongs when they say they have forgiven you, do you wonder if they really meant it? Might you question their sincerity?

So what you are saying then is that the believer who falls away is only accountable for the sins he commits AFTER he falls away? May I ask you to reconcile what you quoted with:

“But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die." Eze 18:24 NIV

And the Parable of the Unforgiving Servant - Mt 18:21-35

Are sins blotted out as soon as forgiven?

What do I think? What I believe on this matter is not set in concrete, but until I am clearly shown otherwise, I tend to believe that all who fall away, those who have "once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then fall away, since they are crucifying one again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt," would actually be more guilty and far more culpable than the one who never heard of the gospel. "To whom much is given, much is required." And the servant who knew his master's will but did not do it will receive the greater condemnation.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

The righteousness that is imputed in me is God's righteousness that I accept by faith.

The righteousness of Christ that is imparted in me is God's work done in me which by faith I accept for Him to do, through His indwelling Spirit.

are they both "in" you? [/quote']I have accepted both. But the "heart is deceitful above all things." Therefore whether both are truly in my possession or not, I prefer God or others who know me to bear witness.

huh? you dont seem to understand the question.

would this help, do you see Christs imputed righteousness as a work done "in" a person? as well as

Christs imparted righteousness as also done "in" a person?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

What do you think?

If God says that when he forgives our sin that he will not remember our sin any more, what part of that don't you understand? When God says that he throws our sins into the depths of the sea, do you think he gets in a submarine to go back for it to give it back to you the next time you screw up?

What was Jesus' answer to Peter's question, "How many times are you to keep forgiving someone who keeps harming you?" Are you supposed to keep track so that when you get to 491 you can stop forgiving them?

If someone keeps bringing up past wrongs when they say they have forgiven you, do you wonder if they really meant it? Might you question their sincerity? [/quote']

So what you are saying then is that the believer who falls away is only accountable for the sins he commits AFTER he falls away? May I ask you to reconcile what you quoted with:

“But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die." Eze 18:24 NIV

And the Parable of the Unforgiving Servant - Mt 18:21-35

Are sins blotted out as soon as forgiven?

gerry, a parable is not meant to teach what you are teaching any more than the parable of lazarus and the rich man is meant to prove life after death.

peter asked Jesus how many times we are to forgive. Jesus answered him by the parable.

[Gerr]

So what you are saying then is that the believer who falls away is only accountable for the sins he commits AFTER he falls away? May I ask you to reconcile what you quoted with:

“But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die." Eze 18:24 NIV

And the Parable of the Unforgiving Servant - Mt 18:21-35

Are sins blotted out as soon as forgiven? gerry, a parable is not meant to teach what you are teaching any more than the parable of lazarus and the rich man is meant to prove life after death.

peter asked Jesus how many times we are to forgive. Jesus answered him by the parable.

I don't know if the above response was made after I edited my comments or not. I am not basing my opinion on just the parable.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

gerry, a parable is not meant to teach what you are teaching any more than the parable of lazarus and the rich man is meant to prove life after death.

peter asked Jesus how many times we are to forgive. Jesus answered him by the parable. [/quote']I don't know if the above response was made after I edited my comments or not. I am not basing my opinion on just the parable.

gerry, is the parable to teach us that we are to forgive without number, or is it meant to teach something else?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

huh? you dont seem to understand the question.

would this help, do you see Christs imputed righteousness as a work done "in" a person? as well as

Christs imparted righteousness as also done "in" a person?

Yeah, sometimes I fail to understand the question, that's why I ask questions.

The imputed righteousness is what God does for me, outside of and independent of myself, other than that I accept it by faith. He says I have put righteousness in your bank account. Or like, I have put $1 billion in your checking account. He tells me I am now a billionaire. And I believe it.

Imparted righteousness is what God does not only for me but IN me, to make it a reality in my daily life that what He said IS true. If He tells the universe that I am clean while I continue to wallow in mud, that would make Him a liar. So He proceeds to clean me up inside and out. If He says that He has made me a billionaire but I continue to live like a pauper, I make Him a liar. So imparted righteousness is God teaching me daily how to observe the etiguette expected in His subjects - how to eat, dress, work, love, etc. etc.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

huh? you dont seem to understand the question.

would this help, do you see Christs imputed righteousness as a work done "in" a person? as well as

Christs imparted righteousness as also done "in" a person?

The imputed righteousness is what God does for me, outside of and independent of myself, ...

ok, that was what i was trying to clarify since you first said imputed was done "in" you.

[pnattmbtc]

This is the Gospel:

Quote:

Notice in the above account that the taking away of the filthy garments is the same as causing the iniquity to pass from the person. And so we find that when Christ covers us with the robe of His own righteousness, He does not furnish a cloak for sin but takes the sin away. And this shows that the forgiveness of sins is something more than a mere form, something more than a mere entry in the books of record in heaven, to the effect that the sin has been canceled. The forgiveness of sins is a reality; it is something tangible, something that vitally affects the individual. It actually clears him from guilt, and if he is cleared from guilt, is justified, made righteous, he has certainly undergone a radical change. He is, indeed, another person, for he obtained this righteousness for the remission of sins, in Christ. It was obtained only by putting on Christ. But "if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature." 2 Cor. 5:17. And so the full and free forgiveness of sins carries with it that wonderful and miraculous change known as the new birth, for a man cannot become a new creature except by a new birth. This is the same as having a new, or a clean, heart.

The new heart is a heart that loves righteousness and hates sin. It is a heart of willingness to be led into the paths of righteousness.

This is from Waggoner's "Christ and His Righteousness," (emphasis mine) part of the sermons presented at the 1888 General Conference Session, according to Froom.

From Ellen White:

Quote:

If you are the children of God you are partakers of His nature, and you cannot but be like Him. Every child lives by the life of his father. If you are God's children, begotten by His Spirit, you live by the life of God.... That life in you will produce the same character and manifest the same works as it did in Him. Thus you will be in harmony with every precept of His law.(MB 77-78)

As John said, "He that has the Son, has life." Jesus said, "I have come that you might have life, and have it abundantly." The life Jesus gives us is His own life, a point made by Ellen White and her contemporaries often (Jones, Waggoner, Prescott and Fifield immediately come to mind). Of course, Christ's own life is a life of righteousness. As EGW puts it, "That life in you will produce the same character and manifest the same works as it did in Him."

[Gerr]

Quote:

gerry, is the parable to teach us that we are to forgive without number, or is it meant to teach something else?

I believe Jesus is teaching us "forgive our debtors" just as our debts have been forgiven. NOT 70x7. At the end of the parable Jesus said in 18:35, heavenly forgiveness is contigent on us forgiving others. If we don't forgive, neither will our Father forgive us. I hope I am making myself clear.

[teresaq]

so we need to seek conversion, or study the cross, til we have that experience.....

[pnattmbtc]

Once more with feeling... How quickly we divert ourselves from the opening premise of this topic...

It's about forgiveness, simple unadulterated forgiveness.

Thanks for the reminder.

There are two aspects of forgiveness, regarding the one who has been wronged, and the one who wronged the other. God, who was wronged, has forgiven us, pure and simple. There are no conditions regarding God's choosing to forgive us.

The other aspect is our accepting his forgiveness. There is a condition here, and the condition is that we accept his forgiveness, which involves repentance. This isn't an arbitrary requirement on the part of God, but it's simply impossible for us to accept God's forgiveness without repenting. It can't be done. So God announces this as a "condition," but not an arbitrary one, but simply a statement of fact.

Here's an analogy. Say a party has been wronged in a marriage. The offended party has a choice to make. One has the legal right to sue for divorce (I'm speaking of a legal right Biblically) or one can choose to forgive the offending party, allowing for reconciliation. However, even if the choice is made to forgive the offending party, the other party still must repent and accept that forgiveness in order for there to be a reconciliation.

[Gerr]

If I am not mistaken, both Waggoner & EGW are talking about justification and sanctification combined, which I wholeheartedly agree.

My disagreement is with those who claim that justification ALONE is THE Good News. To me it is much better news when God not only pronounces the sinner righteous but also actually cleans him up, otherwise calling a person clean while he wallows in a cesspool would be a lie.

[teresaq]

Quote:

gerry, is the parable to teach us that we are to forgive without number, or is it meant to teach something else?

I believe Jesus is teaching us "forgive our debtors" just as our debts have been forgiven. ...

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Quote:

gerry, is the parable to teach us that we are to forgive without number, or is it meant to teach something else?

I believe Jesus is teaching us "forgive our debtors" just as our debts have been forgiven. ...

so we dare not try to make any other application than the one Christ made, right?

I don't know what kind of application you are talking about, but what the parable tells me is that because the Father forgives us AS we are forgiven, and since the unforgiving servant did not forgive as he was forgiven, therefore he was not forgiven after all.

Again, I refer to the Ezek passage & the Heb passage I quoted. Or are you of the opinion that an apostate is only accountable for the sins he commits AFTER apostasy?

[Robert]

"Sin is lawlessness," 1 Jn 3:4 ESV

Sin has many definitions:

Read me!

[pnattmbtc]

If I am not mistaken, both Waggoner & EGW are talking about justification and sanctification combined, which I wholeheartedly agree.

[Robert]

God pronounces the sinner just, and makes Him just, because there is power in His word to accomplish that which He pronounces, and God cannot lie. The sinner is made just, or righteous, which is to say an obeyer of the law.

This is riddled with error. This is what is wrong with Traditional, historic Adventism.

You and I have not been "made righteous" by what God does in us. We are (present tense) falling short of God's agape while simultaneously growing.

Folks become deceived because they limit sin to an act. They read the letter of the law, (Ex 20:12-17) and claim that they are keeping the law.

We stand just before God "in Christ" because at the incarnation the Son of God took our fallen humanity into Himself and by His doing & dying Christ has legally satisfied all three requirements of the law:

1] Justice

2] Holiness

3] Glorification

We already have all these by faith alone:

But of Him [God] you are in Christ Jesus [God put you into Christ at the incarnation], who became for us wisdom from God--that is our justification and sanctification and redemption.... [1 Cor 1:30]

[Gerr]

Quote:

This is justification by faith, not sanctification. This is what the Waggoner quote I cited brings out. That is, this one:

Notice in the above account that the taking away of the filthy garments is the same as causing the iniquity to pass from the person. And so we find that when Christ covers us with the robe of His own righteousness, He does not furnish a cloak for sin but takes the sin away. And this shows that the forgiveness of sins is something more than a mere form, something more than a mere entry in the books of record in heaven, to the effect that the sin has been canceled. The forgiveness of sins is a reality; it is something tangible, something that vitally affects the individual. It actually clears him from guilt, and if he is cleared from guilt, is justified, made righteous, he has certainly undergone a radical change. He is, indeed, another person, for he obtained this righteousness for the remission of sins, in Christ. It was obtained only by putting on Christ. But "if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature." 2 Cor. 5:17. And so the full and free forgiveness of sins carries with it that wonderful and miraculous change known as the new birth, for a man cannot become a new creature except by a new birth. This is the same as having a new, or a clean, heart.

The new heart is a heart that loves righteousness and hates sin. It is a heart of willingness to be led into the paths of righteousness.

Whether you or Waggoner realize it or not, to me he is not only talking about justification but also sanctification. In my own mind the two occur simultaneously. The moment God justifies a person (change in status/position) He also sanctifies the person, makes him holy, changes the heart and gives him new motives, and obedient heart. As you can see from what I underlined in the above quote, to me he was talking about BOTH. The two go hand in hand. Neither is just a onetime event. That's why I don't like using the court model as the sole illustration in the plan of salvation. There are some people who get stuck with justification alone and ignore the fact that justification just sets him to begin a journey with God and not the end of the journey. While the court scene in seen in Dan 7, the the main OT models that come to mind are: 1. The Sanctuary and sacrificial system 2. The Covenant model 3. The Marriage relationship 4. Redemption model. In those illustrations, both aspects of justification and sanctification are covered and I dare say they can't be separated. That's why I keep saying that pronouncing an evil person righteous/perfect can't be good news unless that person is also given a new heart and made to act righteous.