Conditional Forgiveness

[WayneV]

how do you figure? didnt gomer have to accept hoseas forgiveness for there to be reconciliation? i mean, if she didnt accept it she would leave, so how would there be reconciliation? i may not have gotten my point across as well as i wish.

Nor I, mine.

The context of Hosea indicates that God's forgiveness is constant, eternal, and always present for us--as opposed to being a decision or action on God's part each time we turn from Him. It is only the prostitute wife who has to make a decision (to return to God) and take action on that decision (see Hosea 2:7). God forgave us, and prepared a way for us to "repent", before (or since) the foundation of the world" (Matt. 25:34; Eph. 1:4; Rev. 13:8; 17:8).

I hope that makes more sense.

Agape`

[karl]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

how do you figure? didnt gomer have to accept hoseas forgiveness for there to be reconciliation? i mean, if she didnt accept it she would leave, so how would there be reconciliation? i may not have gotten my point across as well as i wish.

Nor I, mine.

The context of Hosea indicates that God's forgiveness is constant, eternal, and always present for us--as opposed to being a decision or action on God's part each time we turn from Him. It is only the prostitute wife who has to make a decision (to return to God) and take action on that decision (see Hosea 2:7). God forgave us, and prepared a way for us to "repent", before (or since) the foundation of the world" (Matt. 25:34; Eph. 1:4; Rev. 13:8; 17:8).

I hope that makes more sense.

Agape`

"Christ pitied them in their ignorance and guilt. He breathed only a plea for their forgiveness,--"for they know not what they do...."

"Some of them would yet see their sin, and repent, and be converted. Some by their impenitence would make it an impossibility for the prayer of Christ to be answered for them. Yet, just the same, God's purpose was reaching its fulfillment. Jesus was earning the right to become the advocate of men in the Father's presence." The Desire of Ages (1898), page 744

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

how do you figure? didnt gomer have to accept hoseas forgiveness for there to be reconciliation? i mean, if she didnt accept it she would leave, so how would there be reconciliation? i may not have gotten my point across as well as i wish.

Nor I, mine.

The context of Hosea indicates that God's forgiveness is constant, eternal, and always present for us--as opposed to being a decision or action on God's part each time we turn from Him. It is only the prostitute wife who has to make a decision (to return to God) and take action on that decision (see Hosea 2:7). ...

I hope that makes more sense.

and i read pnattmbtcs post to be saying the bolded part, hence my confusion at your "rebuttal".

unless you were wanting to point out Gods forgiveness, with which i believe pnattmbtc and others would strongly agree!

[pnattmbtc]

That's why I don't like getting stuck with just the court model in explaining the plan of salvation. Like any illustration, there is a point in which it breaks down, just like a parable. That's why I also said that both justification and sanctification take place simultaneously.

This sounds like it may just be semantics. When Waggoner speaks of "justification" he rarely has in mind (if ever) a merely (or primarily) a judicial pronouncement. I was making this point. The same is true for Paul. Justification involves transformation.

[WayneV]

Originally Posted By: WayneV

It is only the prostitute wife who has to make a decision (to return to God) and take action on that decision (see Hosea 2:7)...

and i read pnattmbtcs post to be saying the bolded part, hence my confusion at your "rebuttal".

unless you were wanting to point out Gods forgiveness, with which i believe pnattmbtc and others would strongly agree!

[Gerr]

While one will be just as dead as the other, will Cain who we know murdered one man have the same judgment as Stalin who was responsible for the death of millions?

Will Satan's sentence be on the same level as his underlings?

[pnattmbtc]

God has no choice to make. He doesn't have to choose to forgive us. He desired and planned to forgive us before (or since) He created the world. That's all I'm sayin'.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

That's why I don't like getting stuck with just the court model in explaining the plan of salvation. Like any illustration, there is a point in which it breaks down, just like a parable. That's why I also said that both justification and sanctification take place simultaneously.

This sounds like it may just be semantics. When Waggoner speaks of "justification" he rarely has in mind (if ever) a merely (or primarily) a judicial pronouncement. I was making this point. The same is true for Paul. Justification involves transformation.

The reason for the confusion, I think, is that most Protestant theologians view justification as something done FOR and INDEPENDENT of the believing sinner and leads to a change in STATUS only, while sanctification is something that is done IN the believer with his consent and leads to a TRANSFORMED life. While this may look like a matter of semantics, it becomes very important when one views justification as

their title AND fitness for heaven and therefore don't have to walk the talk.

[pnattmbtc]

The reason for the confusion, I think, is that most Protestant theologians view justification as something done FOR and INDEPENDENT of the believing sinner and leads to a change in STATUS only, while sanctification is something that is done IN the believer with his consent and leads to a TRANSFORMED life. While this may look like a matter of semantics, it becomes very important when one views justification as

their title AND fitness for heaven and therefore don't have to walk the talk.

The semantics I was speaking of was between what you were saying and what Waggoner was saying. Waggoner said that justification by faith involved transformation. You appeared to be using the word "justification" to refer only to a declaration of righteousness, and "sanctification" to refer to the transformation that justification by faith effects.

[teresaq]

While one will be just as dead as the other, will Cain who we know murdered one man have the same judgment as Stalin who was responsible for the death of millions?

Will Satan's sentence be on the same level as his underlings?

eternally dead seems like eternally dead to me....

[WayneV]

Although this is rather incidental to my point, God did have a choice to make:

Quote:

Said the angel, "Think ye that the Father yielded up His dearly beloved Son without a struggle? No, no." It was even a struggle with the God of heaven, whether to let guilty man perish, or to give His darling Son to die for them.(EW 127)

pnat,

You're right, it is incidental. I still disagree with your assertion that God had to make a choice. Do you have any Scriptures in mind that would verify your quote above? If so, would you mind building your case with those Scriptures, for my benefit?

Thanks in advance for your response.

Agape`

[karl]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Although this is rather incidental to my point, God did have a choice to make:

Quote:

Said the angel, "Think ye that the Father yielded up His dearly beloved Son without a struggle? No, no." It was even a struggle with the God of heaven, whether to let guilty man perish, or to give His darling Son to die for them.(EW 127)

pnat,

You're right, it is incidental. I still disagree with your assertion that God had to make a choice. Do you have any Scriptures in mind that would verify your quote above? If so, would you mind building your case with those Scriptures, for my benefit?

Thanks in advance for your response.

Agape`

One choice immediately comes to mind:

Creation of free-will humans. Who forced God to do that? That was done with Christ already crucified, in God's mind. The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry

The reason for the confusion, I think, is that most Protestant theologians view justification as something done FOR and INDEPENDENT of the believing sinner and leads to a change in STATUS only, while sanctification is something that is done IN the believer with his consent and leads to a TRANSFORMED life. While this may look like a matter of semantics, it becomes very important when one views justification as

their title AND fitness for heaven and therefore don't have to walk the talk.

The semantics I was speaking of was between what you were saying and what Waggoner was saying. Waggoner said that justification by faith involved transformation. You appeared to be using the word "justification" to refer only to a declaration of righteousness, and "sanctification" to refer to the transformation that justification by faith effects.

Yes, that is true - that I am using justification as the declaration by God that the believing sinner is righteous in the same sense as most Protestants use the term and sanctification to the transformation.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

While one will be just as dead as the other, will Cain who we know murdered one man have the same judgment as Stalin who was responsible for the death of millions?

Will Satan's sentence be on the same level as his underlings?

eternally dead seems like eternally dead to me....

47 And that servant who knew his master’s will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.

48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more. Lk 12:47-48 ESV

SATAN’S PUNISHMENT COMMENSURATE WITH HIS GUILT.—Satan also and his angels were judged by Jesus and the saints. Satan’s punishment was to be far greater than that of those whom he had deceived. His suffering would so far exceed theirs as to bear no comparison with it. After all those whom he had deceived had perished, Satan was still to live and suffer on much longer.—EW 291.

GC 672.2}

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God’s people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah

White, E. G. (1911; 2002). The Great Controversy Between Christ and Satan; Conflict of the Ages, Volume 5; Great Controversy (673). Pacific Press Publishing Association.

[pnattmbtc]

pnat,

You're right, it is incidental. I still disagree with your assertion that God had to make a choice. Do you have any Scriptures in mind that would verify your quote above? If so, would you mind building your case with those Scriptures, for my benefit?

Thanks in advance for your response.

There's nothing in Scripture which discusses the event that Ellen White is describing, which is what happened in heaven after man fell. So, since Scripture is silent on the question, there is nothing I could directly site.

However, one could infer that what she wrote is correct.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

eternally dead seems like eternally dead to me.... [/quote']47 And that servant who knew his master’s will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.

48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more. Lk 12:47-48 ESV

oh i am very much in agreement with what the bible and sop say. no problem there. im in disagreement with the way people seem to understand the point.

if people are going to suffer various torments due to what they have done, then surely the rewards are going to be various also, according to the deeds done. those who have done the most good for God will receive the most and those who have done the least will receive the least.

God is consistent, not inconsistent.

but still, eternally dead is eternally dead.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: WayneV

pnat,

You're right, it is incidental. I still disagree with your assertion that God had to make a choice. Do you have any Scriptures in mind that would verify your quote above? If so, would you mind building your case with those Scriptures, for my benefit?

Thanks in advance for your response.

There's nothing in Scripture which discusses the event that Ellen White is describing, which is what happened in heaven after man fell. So, since Scripture is silent on the question, there is nothing I could directly site.

However, one could infer that what she wrote is correct.

if im not mistaken waynev is not a adventist, hence the request for scripture.

i believe that if we pray about it the scripture(s) she based this on will come to mind....

perhaps when God asked abraham to sacrifice isaac is the best illustration. imagine the struggle abraham had.... he finally gets the promised son and then is asked to sacrifice him.

but in God asking abraham to sacrifice his son, the son of promise, abraham could understand, like no other way, the meaning of the sacrificial system and the death of the coming Savior and what it meant to the Father....

[pnattmbtc]

I think, from the standpoint of Scripture, that karl's approach is correct, which is also what I had in mind. That is, I think one could infer God's struggle from the standpoint that love involves the creation of free will beings which involves risk. That Christ specifically incurred risk would follow from His becoming a human being and taking sinful flesh.

[WayneV]

There's nothing in Scripture which discusses the event that Ellen White is describing, which is what happened in heaven after man fell. So, since Scripture is silent on the question, there is nothing I could directly site.

However, one could infer that what she wrote is correct.

Thank you for your honesty, pnat.

You are correct, one could infer the correctness of Mrs. White's statement. However, the overall context of Scripture regarding the attributes of God, in my homble opinion, implies something different. The issue does not appear to be something that is imperative for salvation, though. Therefore, It is not really worth a prolonged dialog. I understand your viewpoint, and grant you your belief in the inspiration of Mrs. White. I believe that you understand my viewpoint. What do you say we move on to weightier matters?

Agape`

[WayneV]

Teresa,

I attended SDA schools growing up, including Union College, and have been an Adventist for more years than I was not Adventist. As far as I know, they have not excommunicated me yet! I simply do not ascribe to Mrs. White any more inspired authority than I would to most Christian authors. Neither do I believe that she was a fraud or any such falderal. Her writings, in fact, were instrumental in my own conversion.

Thanks for asking, instead of drawing your own conclusions (as others have done about yourself).

Agape`

[LifeHiscost]

What do you say we move on to weightier matters?

Agape`

A weightier matter might be that if one thought God to be unjust,

in any measure, he/she might be deluded into refusing the gift of repentance because he/she thought its'(the iniquity)such a small matter it needed no repentance, a prerequisite to full and complete forgiveness.

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Acts 2:38 KJV

Joy!

[pnattmbtc]

You are correct, one could infer the correctness of Mrs. White's statement. However, the overall context of Scripture regarding the attributes of God, in my homble opinion, implies something different. The issue does not appear to be something that is imperative for salvation, though. Therefore, It is not really worth a prolonged dialog. I understand your viewpoint, and grant you your belief in the inspiration of Mrs. White. I believe that you understand my viewpoint. What do you say we move on to weightier matters?

I actually think this is quite a vital matter, however it's rather tangential to this thread. So I agree that we set this aside for now, but expect we will have opportunities to discuss these ideas in the future.

[teresaq]

Teresa,

I attended SDA schools growing up, including Union College, and have been an Adventist for more years than I was not Adventist. As far as I know, they have not excommunicated me yet! I simply do not ascribe to Mrs. White any more inspired authority than I would to most Christian authors. Neither do I believe that she was a fraud or any such falderal. Her writings, in fact, were instrumental in my own conversion.

Thanks for asking, instead of drawing your own conclusions (as others have done about yourself).

Agape`

oops, my bad. i assumed you werent sda based on one of your posts somewhere. sorry about that, and im not being flippant. but at least i got the part about you wanting scripture right.

as for the last part im not sure if that was some kind of dig or not, since i hadnt asked, tho i did "preface" with, "if im not mistaken". not exactly the same tho. :)

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

There's nothing in Scripture which discusses the event that Ellen White is describing, which is what happened in heaven after man fell. So, since Scripture is silent on the question, there is nothing I could directly site.

However, one could infer that what she wrote is correct.

Thank you for your honesty, pnat.

You are correct, one could infer the correctness of Mrs. White's statement. However, the overall context of Scripture regarding the attributes of God, in my homble opinion, implies something different. The issue does not appear to be something that is imperative for salvation, though. Therefore, It is not really worth a prolonged dialog. I understand your viewpoint, and grant you your belief in the inspiration of Mrs. White. I believe that you understand my viewpoint. What do you say we move on to weightier matters?

i would like to continue for a second, and i believe it is related to the topic.

going on memory the question is whether it was a struggle for God to give up His Son. apart from egw, it seems to me that to say it wasnt a struggle would be to deny that God feels.

in other words, for me, it would be contradictory to say, for God so loved...and then say there was no struggle to give up His Son (im using biblical language). if there was no struggle to give up His Son how can i count on Him really caring about me. He might throw me to the wolves just as easily....

[LifeHiscost]

in other words, for me, it would be contradictory to say, for God so loved...and then say there was no struggle to give up His Son (im using biblical language). if there was no struggle to give up His Son how can i count on Him really caring about me. He might throw me to the wolves just as easily....

Excellent reasoning. Sometimes we can get so bogged down in duty-bound theology we can forget that God is our Father, a member of our family, One Who not only hurt immensely beyond anything we can begin to imagine, but also continues to suffer as His children continue in their profligate ways.

"....they crucify again for themselves the Son of God" Hebrews 6:5-7 NKJV

While the promise is true that if we return unto God, He will return unto us, I wonder just how long we can play with fire before we wish not to return.

"For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears."Hebrews 12:17 NKJV

Joy!!