Conditional Forgiveness

[WayneV]

How could God struggle with the decision of whether to give up His Son or destroy humanity when that decision had been made before (or since) the foundation of the world?

I have enjoyed participating in the discussion. However, classes are starting again, so I will only be able to visit periodically. Please pray for my endurance in my classes. It is hard on an old man going back to school, at least on this old man.

Agape`

[Woody]

How old it 'old'?

[pnattmbtc]

How could God struggle with the decision of whether to give up His Son or destroy humanity when that decision had been made before (or since) the foundation of the world?

I have enjoyed participating in the discussion. However, classes are starting again, so I will only be able to visit periodically. Please pray for my endurance in my classes. It is hard on an old man going back to school, at least on this old man.

A plan had been made, but it was a contingency until the event this was a contingency for actually happened. Once it happened, the decision could still have been made not to go through with the plan. Ellen White talks about this on several occasions. Scripture doesn't speak about this in the context of sending Christ or not, but does discuss God's making decisions and contingent plans in other circumstances.

[pnattmbtc]

Excellent reasoning. Sometimes we can get so bogged down in duty-bound theology we can forget that God is our Father, a member of our family, One Who not only hurt immensely beyond anything we can begin to imagine, but also continues to suffer as His children continue in their profligate ways.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Those who think of the result of hastening or hindering the gospel think of it in relation to themselves and to the world. Few think of its relation to God. Few give thought to the suffering that sin has caused our Creator. All heaven suffered in Christ's agony; but that suffering did not begin or end with His manifestation in humanity. The cross is a revelation to our dull senses of the pain that, from its very inception, sin has brought to the heart of God. Every departure from the right, every deed of cruelty, every failure of humanity to reach His ideal, brings grief to Him. When there came upon Israel the calamities that were the sure result of separation from God,--subjugation by their enemies, cruelty, and death,--it is said that "His soul was grieved for the misery of Israel." "In all their affliction He was afflicted: . . . and He bare them, and carried them all the days of old." Judges 10:16; Isaiah 63:9.(Ed 263)

Joy!!

[Twilight]

{DA 762.1}

The law requires righteousness' date='--a righteous life, a perfect character; and this man has not to give. He cannot meet the claims of God’s holy law. But Christ, coming to the earth as man, lived a holy life, and developed a perfect character. These He offers as a free gift to all who will receive them. His life stands for the life of men. Thus they have remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. More than this, Christ imbues men with the attributes of God. He builds up the human character after the similitude of the divine character, a goodly fabric of spiritual strength and beauty. Thus the very righteousness of the law is fulfilled in the believer in Christ. God can "be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." Rom. 3:26#

MB 149.1}

Religion consists in doing the words of Christ; not doing to earn God’s favor, but because, all undeserving, we have received the gift of His love. Christ places the salvation of man, not upon profession merely, but upon faith that is made manifest in works of righteousness. Doing, not saying merely, is expected of the followers of Christ. It is through action that character is built. "As many as are led by the Spirit [bEGIN P.150'] of God, they are the sons of God." Romans 8:14. Not those whose hearts are touched by the Spirit, not those who now and then yield to its power, but they that are led by the Spirit, are the sons of God.#

Quote:

Some will continue to strive to claim that they have enough righteousness to stand before the curse of the Law. But the Law will win each time. The only way you can obtain life ever lasting ... is to claim the life of Jesus in the place of your life.

That's the strawman you and Robert keep raising up no matter how many times it's been knocked down. Because I and many others call for obedience to God & His commandments as the loving response of faith, you call it legalism, that with obedience we are somehow earning our way

into heaven. Why don't you produce ONE, JUST ONE statement made by ANYONE that they will merit heaven BECAUSE of their obedience. JUST ONE will do.

Quote:

Gerry has a good point here.

[Twilight]

If I am not mistaken, both Waggoner & EGW are talking about justification and sanctification combined, which I wholeheartedly agree.

My disagreement is with those who claim that justification ALONE is THE Good News. To me it is much better news when God not only pronounces the sinner righteous but also actually cleans him up, otherwise calling a person clean while he wallows in a cesspool would be a lie.

When a sinner comes to the point where he realises he cannot keep the law.

He can do one of two things.

1. He can fall down before the Father and ask the Father to do the work in him.

2. Or he can deny the need for the work to be done in him and ask for a covering, so that he can continue in failure.

The second point is the part you are arguing against Gerry.

But you will not have much joy I am afraid.

Once someone convinces themselves that "sanctification and justification" are the same thing, it takes a mighty act of God to break that belief...

There is nothing more allurring to the failing Christian than the idea that they can happily carry on failing and it is okay...

There is also, not one doctrine more dangerous.

The sifting will sadly sort this doctrine out.

Because when the sifting comes, obedience is not important, who needs to observe the Sabbath, will be the great cry...

And they will be lost.

When we begin to understand that obedience is a gift from God, we will not be scorning it and mocking is so much. But if we never believe in this gift, it will always be treated with such contempt...

Mark

[Guest]

When a sinner comes to the point where he realises he cannot keep the law.

He can do one of two things.

1. He can fall down before the Father and ask the Father to do the work in him.

2. Or he can deny the need for the work to be done in him and ask for a covering, so that he can continue in failure.

When we begin to understand that obedience is a gift from God, we will not be scorning it and mocking is so much. But if we never believe in this gift, it will always be treated with such contempt...

Mark

Amen brother!

[Woody]

Quote:

Quote:

Gerry has a good point here.

Yes. This is probably the first time I agree with both you and Gerry:

__________________________________________________

And I hope this kind of input from the two of you continues.

[teresaq]

How could God struggle with the decision of whether to give up His Son or destroy humanity when that decision had been made before (or since) the foundation of the world?

[WayneV]

Quick Response:

• Redwood: Nunya! lol
• Teresa: Thank you for your prayers. I will try to live up to what I know.
• pnat: I have heard tell of God's sovereign will and God's permissive will. However, I only believe in one of these. Guess which one!

[pnattmbtc]

Wayne, I don't see how one could logically be an Adventist without believing in God's permissive will. Indeed, the only logically consistent alternative I can think of, off the top of my head, in terms of Christianity would be to be a 5 point Calvinist.

[karl]

How could God struggle with the decision of whether to give up His Son or destroy humanity when that decision had been made before (or since) the foundation of the world?

As long as you've got options, decisions must be made. I hope you're not maintaining that God had no options. Then He wouldn't be God at all.

God still, at the cross, had the option to say "kill all the rebels and start over." He already did that once with the flood.

[teresaq]

"kill all the rebels and start over." He already did that once with the flood.

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

When a sinner comes to the point where he realises he cannot keep the law.

He can do one of two things.

1. He can fall down before the Father and ask the Father to do the work in him.

2. Or he can deny the need for the work to be done in him and ask for a covering, so that he can continue in failure.

When we begin to understand that obedience is a gift from God, we will not be scorning it and mocking is so much. But if we never believe in this gift, it will always be treated with such contempt...

Mark

Amen brother!

Oh how I long for the time when all the brothers in Christ will experience the joy of having the ability to safely see all Ten of the commandments as promises that our Father is capable of giving with joy in the keeping of them.

Only that joyful experience will enter the portals of the New Jerusalem.

"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love." John 15:10 NKJV

Joy!!

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: karl

"kill all the rebels and start over." He already did that once with the flood.

While God didn't kill anyone in the flood, it isn't immediately obvious in the telling of the events as described in the Bible, that satan persuaded all those left to drown, that it was foolish to listen to the message of Noah for the 120 years of warning to enter the ark before the waters came.

"And the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.”"Genesis 6:2-7 NKJV

"God is Love"

[pnattmbtc]

Oh how I long for the time when all the brothers in Christ will experience the joy of having the ability to safely see all Ten of the commandments as promises that our Father is capable of giving with joy in the keeping of them.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

"kill all the rebels and start over." He already did that once with the flood.

While God didn't kill anyone in the flood,

I'm sorry, I should have said, "God allowed those who would not accept His offer of safety to reap the consequences while He rearranged the earth in such a way that all living things died."

I need to get more wordy.

[pnattmbtc]

Even better: "God allowed those who would not accept His offer of safety to reap the consequences while He permitted the earth to be rearranged in such a way that all living things died."

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

While God didn't kill anyone in the flood' date=' [/quote']

I'm sorry, I should have said, "God allowed those who would not accept His offer of safety to reap the consequences while He rearranged the earth in such a way that all living things died."

I need to get more wordy.

it sounds so cold and unfeeling on the part of God, is what i am hearing.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Amen brother! [/quote']

Oh how I long for the time when all the brothers in Christ will experience the joy of having the ability to safely see all Ten of the commandments as promises that our Father is capable of giving with joy in the keeping of them.

Only that joyful experience will enter the portals of the New Jerusalem.

"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love." John 15:10 NKJV

Joy!!

Indeed my friend. :-)

It also points out to us our great spiritual poverty.

It is only through a miracle of grace that I can obey God.

If He does not supply it, I cannot do it.

What wonderful freedom...

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

it sounds so cold and unfeeling on the part of God, is what i am hearing.

The feeling was demonstrated during the 120 years of pleading. Remember that this was while the Garden of Eden, with visable angels guarding the entrance, was still on the earth. Yet men remained boldly and openly derisive toward God's will.

Pulling the plug is not done in a cold and unfeeling way. It is done when you are certain the patient cannot be revived.

[LifeHiscost]

Pulling the plug is not done in a cold and unfeeling way. It is done when you are certain the patient cannot be revived.

A point worth repeating. As the great Physician, He knows when the heart has gone into defibrillation and is causing constant pain that no longer has potential for lifegiving service.

"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:10 NKJV

Joy!

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

it sounds so cold and unfeeling on the part of God' date=' is what i am hearing. [/quote']

The feeling was demonstrated during the 120 years of pleading. Remember that this was while the Garden of Eden, with visable angels guarding the entrance, was still on the earth. Yet men remained boldly and openly derisive toward God's will.

Pulling the plug is not done in a cold and unfeeling way. It is done when you are certain the patient cannot be revived.

im talking about how you stated it, not what God did. are you able to see how we relate something and what actually happened as two different things?

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

im talking about how you stated it, not what God did. are you able to see how we relate something and what actually happened as two different things?

Yes, and the whole thing is a distraction from what we were discussing, which was whether God had to make a decision. When you have options, a decision is necessary. Only if God had no options would He not need to make a decision. And if He had no options, He wouldn't be God, would He?