Should Adventists own guns?

[abelisle]

Earlier this week I read about military gunsights being inscribed with Bible references: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8468981.stm

and I read about some Adventists who owned guns. Some might reason that they need them for protection, others might use them for hunting, others live in places where gun ownership is considered a birthright (an essential part of the local culture), others might want them for target practice.

What's your take on this?

Alex (not a gun owner)

[Woody]

God is well familiar with military weapons. He instructed people to use them. So in and of themselves ... I see no issue with weapons.

Redwood (not a gun owner)

[bonnie]

Quote:

Earlier this week I read about military gunsights being inscribed with Bible references: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8468981.stm

and I read about some Adventists who owned guns. Some might reason that they need them for protection, others might use them for hunting, others live in places where gun ownership is considered a birthright (an essential part of the local culture), others might want them for target practice.

What's your take on this?

Alex (not a gun owner)

If your family were being attacked,your wife or daughter assaulted would you if the opportunity presented itself call 911?

If you did how would that make you any different than those that had guns for protection?

You would know prior to the call men/women with guns would come. You obviously have an idea what guns are for. You know calling 911 may get someone shot and killed.

Is that acceptable as long as you only ask them to protect you instead of pulling the trigger yourself?

[Neil D]

If your family were being attacked,your wife or daughter assaulted would you if the opportunity presented itself call 911?

If you did how would that make you any different than those that had guns for protection?

You would know prior to the call men/women with guns would come. You obviously have an idea what guns are for. You know calling 911 may get someone shot and killed.

Is that acceptable as long as you only ask them to protect you instead of pulling the trigger yourself?

Yes, I would call 911, knowing full well that those coming with weapons have much better training under various circumstances than me, in my excited state, who would either wound himself or actually kill someone, other than the one intended.

I know myself enough to know that those outcomes are very possible. I trust angels to know how to take care of me, and sometimes that does NOT involve the use of guns.

But you do what you will, Bonnie...Whatever feels good to you...

[John317]

...I read about some Adventists who owned guns. Some might reason that they need them for protection, others might use them for hunting, others live in places where gun ownership is considered a birthright (an essential part of the local culture), others might want them for target practice.

What's your take on this?

Certainly nothing sinful or wrong in owning a gun per se.

I can think of reasons why some people do condemn the owning of guns, but I would like to know your own views of it. It seems obvious from your post that you might consider it immoral or wrong merely to own a weapon. If so, on what basis?

I myself don't think we can judge people for having a weapon either for self-defense or for hunting, and definitely not for target practice. Neither should we judge SDA policemen who carry weapons in their capacity as officers of the law.

While the Bible clearly prohibits murder, it allows for self-defense. It also does not command soldiers or policemen to stop doing those jobs when they convert to Christ. That decision must be left up to the individual believer because it is a matter of conscience, not of a command of God or Bible doctrine.

As Seventh-day Adventists, it's also worth mentioning that there are no statements in the Spirit of prophecy to the effect that church members should not own or carry weapons. On the contrary, we know that James White and their sons did occasionally use a rifle to kill animals for food. Ellen White was never shown that this was wrong, nor did she ever write anything negative about it.

There's also nothing in Scripture indicating that Abraham's actions were wrong in Genesis 14 when "he armed his trained servants, by night, and smote" the people who had taken Lot captive. One gets the impression from both the Bible and Ellen White's writings that in this case Abraham did exactly what he should have done. (I'm not suggesting that it would be right for us today in America to do the same thing. My point is simply that it's not a sin, or morally wrong, for people to own weapons.)

We know, too, that Jesus' disciples carried weapons and that Jesus did not rebuke them for it. In fact, on at least one occasion he told them to buy a sword. It seems that he did this, not in order for them to kill people but so that they would realize the danger they would be in as His disciples. Yet it's hard for me to imagine that Jesus would have done this if it was wrong for them to have a sword, or weapon.

Finally, in the case of soldiers, such as Cornelius, who became followers of Christ, there were no instructions from the apostles that they should stop being soldiers. It apparently was left up to the individuals to decide what they should do. I think that is instructive, and shows what our attitude should be in regard to the same kinds of issues.

Would I be a soldier or policeman carrying a weapon? No. But I don't use my own decisions in these matters to judge what others should do.

It seems to me that the rule that applies best here is, "Whatsoever is not of faith is sin." Paul also said, "Let every man be persuaded in his own mind." In other words, if we are under conviction that it's wrong to do something, it's a sin to go ahead and violate our conscience.

[bonnie]

Quote:

Yes, I would call 911, knowing full well that those coming with weapons have much better training under various circumstances than me, in my excited state, who would either wound himself or actually kill someone, other than the one intended.

I know myself enough to know that those outcomes are very possible. I trust angels to know how to take care of me, and sometimes that does NOT involve the use of guns.

But you do what you will, Bonnie...Whatever feels good to you...

If you trust angels to know how to take care of you what would be the point in.... I trust angels to know how to take care of me, and sometimes that does NOT involve the use of guns.

Have you any evidence that at any time angels come with guns to protect you.

Maybe training that gives you the knowledge of how to use a weapon would help there.

Yes,if someone were harming my children there is no doubt what I would do.

[Guest]

Earlier this week I read about military gunsights being inscribed with Bible references: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8468981.stm

and I read about some Adventists who owned guns. Some might reason that they need them for protection, others might use them for hunting, others live in places where gun ownership is considered a birthright (an essential part of the local culture), others might want them for target practice.

What's your take on this?

Alex (not a gun owner)

If a person likes guns, and is not a total idiot, then he should own guns. I personally don't hunt, because I don't want to kill anything. But I love to shoot targets, and have a nice little shooting range right here on my property. My dad taught me to shoot when I was just a little fella. Couple that with where I live, and it is most definitely a BIRTHRIGHT.

I have collected guns of and on for most of my life, and I have a safe that is full of guns. But I would never recommend guns for idiots.

[bonnie]

Quote:

Yes, I would call 911, knowing full well that those coming with weapons have much better training under various circumstances than me, in my excited state, who would either wound himself or actually kill someone, other than the one intended.

I know myself enough to know that those outcomes are very possible. I trust angels to know how to take care of me, and sometimes that does NOT involve the use of guns.

But you do what you will, Bonnie...Whatever feels good to you...

The question was as a adventist would you own a gun. It says nothing about your ability etc.

It sounds a lot like a moral question,not ability.

God does not always protect nor do the angels.

[Liz]

I think this is a personal decision. In the family I grew up in, my dad and brothers all hunted, so there were always rifles in the closets--not the same closets that had our clothes in them though, my dad also had handguns--we were taught at an early age not to touch.

Now in my dh's family, rifles were normal at his grandparents house but not so much in his own home. When my dh was about 20, he had a little brother around 11, the 11 year old and a buddy, were out playing and they found a gun, neither knew how to handle one and dh's little brother got shot in the neck, he bled to death before the ambulance got there. Now at this time my dh was a prison guard and had to train regularly with both handguns and rifles. After we were married and he was no longer a guard he sold his guns when I got pregnant. He couldn't bare the thought that one of his kids might end up like his little brother.

Does this mean that we don't have weapons in the house? Oh no, we have swords and blades everywhere--the kids were taught at an early age not to touch. They also are being taught how to handle them as they get older.

So this was a long winded response to "it's a personal decision".

[John317]

God does not always protect nor do the angels.

It's OK if someone wants to completely trust God and the angels for protection, but it is also OK if he chooses to use self-defense in some way. I don't think Christ's instructions to turn the other cheek is referring to our actions in the face of criminals who want to rob and murder. His words, it seems to me, are in regard to our actions when confronted by those who want to kill or hurt us because of our faith in Christ. (I could be wrong about this but I think it is consistent with Scripture.)

Your statement reminds me of something that was in the news a short time ago-- about a young man who was sitting under a street light reading his Bible when gang members came by and killed him. One wonders why the angels didn't protect him, but then I think of all the millions of children and other innocent people whose angels did not choose to protect them from danger and death.

Is it showing a lack of faith in God when we choose to take self-defensive actions for ourselves or our families instead of expecting God to save us from obvious harm?

Perhaps it is similar to going to a doctor for help instead of relying on God to perform a miracle. (Back in the late 1840s, Ellen White wrote that it was a sign of a lack of faith for Adventists to go to a doctor instead of praying to God for healing.)

I'm not entirely sure myself of the answer, just posing a question.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

some Adventists who owned guns. Some might reason that they need them for protection, others might use them for hunting, others live in places where gun ownership is considered a birthright (an essential part of the local culture), others might want them for target practice.

I don't think it's wrong for an Adventist to own a gun. My father had a revolver and 2 rifles. But he didn't go out and shoot anyone.

[abelisle]

" . . . but I would like to know your own views of it. It seems obvious from your post that you might consider it immoral or wrong merely to own a weapon. If so, on what basis?"

I guess I better add a "moral" disclaimer to my questions in the future, something to the effect of "This is just a question and nothing is implied by it."

I've had friends, most of whom I met while training and working out who were ex Navy Seals, Delta Force Counter-terroist team and DEA (Drug Enforcement Agency) members and many policemen when I served as a Dean in a S.Bronx HS. We used to speak about what it felt like to have to shoot someone or be shot at. Most agreed that it changed their mindsets about life.

I've disarmed students with guns and knives. I can assure you it was a very uncomfortable feeling. But the evnt that really changed my mind about guns was when I was in the middle of a shootout in the gym of my school at the end of a girl's basketball game.

Prior to this event,I was a member of the NRA. Mainly for an interest I had in competitive shooting. But after I witnessed the scariest moment of my life and seeing 3 young people get shot right around me by a 14 year old with a gun, my mindset about guns changed. Everyone survived but was was critical for awhile.

If I was armed, I probably would have shot and killed that young man. But to this day I thank God that he protected me and the students under my watch. Even playing FPS (First Person Shooter) videogames had mw wondering, "Should I be doing this?" My rationalization was Biblical. I only killed terrorists and evil people.

As for an answer to your question - I don't know? But by not having a gun, I have one less option. Then I guess I'll just have to kill that person with my bare hands in order to protect others?

Alex (I'm a sharpshooter with a 9mm Glock)

[SivartM]

I personally don't want a gun. I know that if I had one I would probably end up accidentally shooting myself, and that would be rather uncomfortable. I also wouldn't want to accidentally kill someone in self-defense.

But I don't think it's wrong to own a gun. I just don't want to own one, touch one, or be near one.

[oldsailor29]

Guardian angels have guns.

[Guest]

My dog even has a gun.

[Liz]

Here kitty kitty kitty.

[SivartM]

Don't you have to take a written exam to use a gun? How did Mr. Murphy manage that?

[Guest]

In this state there is no written exam, you just have to have the five dollars for the permit. Mr. Murphy saved his money up until he had the five dollars. What could I say.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Alex (I'm a sharpshooter with a 9mm Glock)

What was the reason for that comment?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

All SDA's should own guns. Whenever anyone suspicious approaches you, open fire. Remember an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

[Liz]

Hey Dgrimm, that wasn't "me" talking, that's what Mr. Murphy looks like he is saying in that picture.

Hahahahehehehohoho

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

no...shoot to kill..

[Guest]

He was mumbling something about wish somebody would make my day.

[WayneV]

If your family were being attacked,your wife or daughter assaulted would you if the opportunity presented itself call 911?

"When seconds count the police are only minutes away!"

[phkrause]

Earlier this week I read about military gunsights being inscribed with Bible references: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8468981.stm

and I read about some Adventists who owned guns. Some might reason that they need them for protection, others might use them for hunting, others live in places where gun ownership is considered a birthright (an essential part of the local culture), others might want them for target practice.

What's your take on this?

Alex (not a gun owner)

Interesting thread Alex. I think that it is not wrong to own a gun. It is probably not a bad thing to even know how to use one. I think there's a fine line as for me owning one. Today it would be no problem. As for years ago I don't think so. Like Richard mention a gun in the hands of an idiot is a very dangerous think. As even your other post Alex that you mentioned about the shootout. Obviously this person either never had someone teach him the good and bad about a gun, or the influence's in his life were not like those that Richard had or others with a real sense of what guns can do. And how many have shot themselves or someone close to them because the person that actually owned the gun didn't have the brain to be a little more responsible themselves. I personally have never owned a gun and probably never will. Me and my family put our lives in Gods hands. But that doesn't mean that if I get into a situation that does require me to protect my family that I wont grab the first thing that I can get my hands on. But will probably pray first, and give God first crack at. As a matter of fact I've found myself in a number of sticky situations in the past. I'll give an example: I was driving my car home one afternoon from downtown manhattan. And some guy cut me of and pointed to me to pull over. So me being upset pulled over and jumped out of my car to confront this guy. Well he stepped out of his car with about 4 other guys. Me not thinking yet about what I was getting myself into, starting asking these guys, in a very loud voice, what they wanted. They took a look at my car and they said to me, they just wanted to take a better look at it, because it was the nicest camaro they had ever seen. Than they all got into there car, not sure what kind, my adreniline (sp) still pretty high and I couldn't really see right. I got back into my car and sat there wondering what just happen. I thought to myself what did these guy's really want and why did they leave in such a hurry. When I finally settled down and realized what just went down I started to shake a little. And thanked God for helping me. I didn't even pray when I jumped out of my car. I finally also realized that they must have seen something in my car when they got out of there's that had to make them basicly turn around and leave. I think that they saw 4 angels, which they probably miss took for I don't now what, sitting in my car. I've had other situations like this but I figure this is enough for me to know that God does watch over me. But like I said if he choose's not too one of these times, so be it, I'll still put my life in his hands.

pk