"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[Robert]

He didn't have any indwelt sin.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he (God) condemned sin in the flesh

[Robert]

If God assumes the blame for everything he allows, then that would mean he assumes the blame for everything that's ever happened, since he obviously allows it.

Until the day of atonement where He will place the blame where it belongs, on Satan.

[Robert]

That would mean that God is responsible for homosexuality also. And necrophelia, and beastiality. I don't see God claiming these things.

I never said responsible, I said He assumed the blame. To assume something doesn't mean you are its author.

[John317]

Quote:

teresaq(sda): In his first epistle to the Thessalonian believers, Paul endeavored to instruct them regarding the true state of the dead. He spoke of those who die as being asleep--in a state of unconsciousness: ... {AA 257.3}

Yes, of course.

But you can be sure that Saint Paul didn't go around telling people that no one in the history of the world has ever died. It's one thing to say that death is comparable to a sleep but something different to say that no one dies. That is a direct contradiction of thousands of verses in the Scriptures, including the testimony of Christ himself, who said, "Lazarus is dead." Nor did He deny that Lazarus' stank. He was completely dead. The first death is real and true death. The Bible does not deny this. But it does say-- thank God-- that God will bring about "the resurrection of the dead." 1 Cor. 15: 42. It couldn't say that if people weren't really and truly dead.

[John317]

I never said responsible, I said He assumed the blame.

Where are you getting your view that Jesus assumes the blame for homosexuality or bestiality or all the other sins humans commit? Can you quote a clear verse in Scripture?

Was He assuming the blame for all the sins committed by Sodom or by the wicked people He destroyed in the flood?

[John317]

Quote:

JOHN3:17: The Bible itself says God knows the end from the beginning. That is literally true. It doesn't say that God knows some possibilities that may happen.

Quote:

pnattmbtc: Think of what the word "knows the end from the beginning" literally mean. I don't think you've thought this through. Yes, this is literally true. If you go down a certain path, from the beginning of that path, God knows what the end will be. This is what the phrase literally means: God knows the end from the beginning.

References? Evidence?

If you have your Bible handy, check out Isaiah 40 to 44.

There it says God knows the things that will happen before they occur. God says that it is one of the strongest proof that He is God and that He exists. Is. 41: 21-26. He challenges anyone to do the same thing.

If what you say is true, how did God know the name of Cyrus and even the details of his life about 150 years BEFORE Cyrus began to reign? See Isaiah 44: 28; 45: 1ff. Since God knew what Cyrus would do long before he was born, isn't it likely that God knew what other people would do before their birth also? Saint Paul said that God chose him before his birth. Gal. 1: 15. The Bible also says God knew ahead of time that Judas would betray our Lord. Acts 1: 16. Jesus knew that Peter would betray Him three times. Luke 22: 34. Jesus knew how Peter would die. John 21: 18, 19.

Also, if God does not know the end from the beginning, literally, how could God have predicted the things about people as He did in Gen. 49: 2-27? This even describes the characters and some of the actions of people who would live long after the time of Jacob.

I'm wondering if you believe what Ellen White says when she wrote in GC 13, 14 that "the Spirit of God opened to her mind" "the scenes of the past AND THE FUTURE" and showed her "THE COMING EVENTS."

[Robert]

Where are you getting your view that Jesus assumes the blame for homosexuality or bestiality or all the other sins humans commit? Can you quote a clear verse in Scripture?

[Robert]

Jack:

When Lucifer sinned, did he think he was doing a good thing? Or did he think he was doing a bad thing?

He said that he was trying to improve the lot of the angels. There’s something here that is very important and we need to understand it. The love of God, which is the basis of His government, has no self in it. “Love seeketh not her own.” When you look at it philosophically, the love of self sounds very convincing. “You cannot be happy unless you love self.” So the idea of self-love sounds right. There is that text is Proverbs that says, “There’s a way that seems right.”

So Lucifer felt that his way of self-love was better than God’s way where there is no self. So God said, “Go ahead, I will allow you to develop sin,” because that’s what the meaning of sin is. Sin is turning toward self. God said, “I will allow you to develop this world on the principle of self.” This world has been developed on the principle of self for the last six thousand years. Has the world improved? No. If you look at the history of this world, the moment you lift up the principle of self, what happens to society? Does it become better or does it become worse? It becomes worse. After two thousand years, the world had become so terrible that the knowledge of God was almost wiped out. God said, “I will destroy the world and give it a new start.”

And you have the same trend for the next two thousand years when God gave the gospel to the Jews. Did the Jews improve the situation even though He gave them the oracles of God? The Jews had the explicit knowledge of God. Did it help them? What happened to them? It became worse and worse and worse.

Then Christ came and redeemed us and established the Christian Church. Has the church been getting better and better? What’s the history of the Christian Church? Take the nineteenth and twentieth centuries when God allowed the world to increase in knowledge — scientific knowledge, technology. Has science solved our problem? It has solved our problem in terms of amenities of life. Now I can press a button and my dishes are all washed. In that sense, it has improved. But as far as the situation of the world is concerned, is it a better place in which to live? Has crime decreased? No. So has science solved the problem? No. Everything that has been tried has failed because self, sin doesn’t improve things. It makes it worse.

But the thing is this, that the Day of Atonement will put the blame of sin where it belongs. Christ accepted the guilt and punishment and paid for it on the cross but the responsibility, the blame for sin will be placed upon Satan.

[John317]

The only way to expose Lucifer's system of self-love was to allow him to develop it. For 6000 years we have seen the results of iniquity.

Because God allowed Lucifer to develop sin, God assumes the blame until the day of atonement.

I think I agree with most of what you said in this post, but I'm not sure what you mean by God assuming the blame for sin. I didn't see the connection between that and the verses you quoted; for instance the one from Ezekiel. It's true that God delayed punishing the wicked, but how does this delay mean that God is assuming the blame. How does it mean that it's correct to speak of God as having committed the crimes that people actually did? Are you making that connection?

[John317]

Jack:

.... God’s way where there is no self.

I pretty much agree with everything you posted on this, except when Jack S. says that "there is no self" in God's way. I think he'd be better off to say, " there is no selfishness," because the self doesn't disappear under God's way. Adam and Eve before the Fall were both conscious of themselves as separate and distinct individuals. After the Fall, they changed in that the self then ruled instead of God's will and instead of the love for others. Under Christ, then, the self is completely transformed by the love of God and by the Holy Spirit so that it is willing to spend and be spent for others and no longer only for self.

Maybe you could explain better what he's saying by that. I see that concept as something that comes out of Eastern religions where the self is viewed as bad and they attempt to completely get rid of it.

[pnattmbtc]

You didn't understand what I'm saying.

[pnattmbtc]

I pretty much agree with everything you posted on this, except when Jack S. says that "there is no self" in God's way. I think he'd be better off to say, " there is no selfishness," because the self doesn't disappear under God's way. Adam and Eve before the Fall were both conscious of themselves as separate and distinct individuals.

This isn't what "self" means in the context of what Jack is saying. "Self" is that which needs to be crucified. Before the fall, Adam and Eve had no self to be crucified, as their will was in perfect harmony with God's will. Only after they fell did they acquire the "self" Jack S. is speaking of.

[pnattmbtc]

That can't be right. The only time I've quoted it is to respond to your quote from that page which says "the exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government."

Richard quoted from it a few posts back, "The plan for our redemption was not an afterthought..."

[pnattmbtc]

But Ellen White does not say that when there is a conflict between reason and a plain "thus saith the Lord," we should dismiss the Bible and go with human reason and the physical senses. Just the opposite, in fact.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Jack:

.... God’s way where there is no self.

I pretty much agree with everything you posted on this, except when Jack S. says that "there is no self" in God's way. I think he'd be better off to say, " there is no selfishness," because the self doesn't disappear under God's way. Adam and Eve before the Fall were both conscious of themselves as separate and distinct individuals. After the Fall, they changed in that the self then ruled instead of God's will and instead of the love for others. Under Christ, then, the self is completely transformed by the love of God and by the Holy Spirit so that it is willing to spend and be spent for others and no longer only for self.

Maybe you could explain better what he's saying by that. I see that concept as something that comes out of Eastern religions where the self is viewed as bad and they attempt to completely get rid of it.

I certainly agree with your statement here.

"Subjection to the Word of God means the restoration to one's self." T.M.396.

"Subjection to God is restoration to one's self." D.A.466.

sky :)

[Robert]

I think he'd be better off to say, " there is no selfishness," because the self doesn't disappear under God's way. Adam and Eve before the Fall were both conscious of themselves as separate and distinct individuals.

I'm not talking about self-consciousness. Ellen White, whom I agree with here, says it best:

"In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure [i.e., own way]; but all, from pure, genuine love [agape], will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132]

[Robert]

Check out these quotes:

"Self-renunciation is the great law of self-preservation, and self-preservation is the law of self-destruction."

"Self-love, self-interest, must perish. And the law of self-sacrifice is the law of self-preservation."

[pnattmbtc]

What's the source of the quotes?

[skyblue888]

Check out these quotes:

"Self-renunciation is the great law of self-preservation, and self-preservation is the law of self-destruction."

"Self-love, self-interest, must perish. And the law of self-sacrifice is the law of self-preservation."

Yes but self is not destroyed. It is restored in Christ.

"Subjection to the Word of God means the restoration to one's self." T.M.396.

"Subjection to God is restoration to one's self." D.A.466.

[teresaq]

Self-renunciation is the great law of self-preservation, and self-preservation is the law of self-destruction. {ST, July 1, 1897 par. 13}

Self-love, self-interest, must perish. And the law of self-sacrifice is the law of self-preservation. {DA 623.5}

[pnattmbtc]

Thanks. Nice thoughts. Especially these:

Quote:

Self-preservation is the law of self-destruction. The law of self-sacrifice is the law of self-preservation.

This is totally contrary to our world, and intuition.

[teresaq]

isnt it though!!

came across this today:

2Sa 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

nrsv:

2samuel 7:14 I will be a father to him, and he shall be a son to me. When he commits iniquity, I will punish him with a rod such as mortals use, with blows inflicted by human beings.

nasb:

2 Samuel 7:14 (A)I will be a father to him and he will be a son to Me; (B)when he commits iniquity, I will correct him with the rod of men and the strokes of the sons of men,

Psalm 89:30-33

30"If his sons (A)forsake My law

And do not walk in My judgments,

31If they [a]violate My statutes

And do not keep My commandments,

32Then I will punish their transgression with the (B)rod

And their iniquity with stripes.

33"But I will not break off ©My lovingkindness from him,

Nor deal falsely in My faithfulness.

[John317]

Yes but self is not destroyed. It is restored in Christ.

"Subjection to the Word of God means the restoration to one's self." T.M.396.

"Subjection to God is restoration to one's self." D.A.466.

I agree with this, sky. The Fall perverted the self, and the gospel begins a restoration that will be completed at the second coming. God created us with a self, yet a healthy, loving self that puts God at the center and in control instead of the self.

Webster's dictionary defines "self" as "1 the identity, character, etc. of any person or thing; 2 one's own person as distinct from all others; 3 one's own welfare or interest."

The American Heritage dictionary: "1. The total, essential, or particular being of a person; the individual. 2. The essential qualities distinguishing one person from another; individuality. 3. One's consciousness of one's own being or identity; the ego. 4. One's own interests, welfare, or advantage."

In themselves, there is nothing wrong with any of the above except those of #4. In heaven, we will have # 1, 2, 3, but not "one's own advantage" nor "one's own interest or welfare above that of others."

Synonymns of "self" are "oneself, one's being, inner nature."

As you say, these won't be destroyed or done away with but restored to the way God originally intended them to be.

[pnattmbtc]

2samuel 7:14 I will be a father to him, and he shall be a son to me. When he commits iniquity, I will punish him with a rod such as mortals use, with blows inflicted by human beings.

Nice!

[John317]

Quote:

JOHN3:17: I think he'd be better off to say, " there is no selfishness," because the self doesn't disappear under God's way. Adam and Eve before the Fall were both conscious of themselves as separate and distinct individuals.

Quote:

ROBERT: I'm not talking about self-consciousness.

OK, but our consciousness of ourselves-- or self-consciousness-- as distinct from others is a big part of the self. Look, for instance, at the following definition of "self."

Webster's dictionary defines "self" as "1 the identity, character, etc. of any person or thing; 2 one's own person as distinct from all others; 3 one's own welfare or interest."

The American Heritage dictionary: "1. The total, essential, or particular being of a person; the individual. 2. The essential qualities distinguishing one person from another; individuality. 3. One's consciousness of one's own being or identity; the ego. 4. One's own interests, welfare, or advantage."

Synonymns of "self" are "oneself, one's being, inner nature."

In themselves, wouldn't you agree that there is nothing wrong with any of the above except those in the last group? In heaven, we will have # 1, 2, 3, but not "one's own advantage" nor "one's own interest or welfare above that of others."

I think we're in agreement on this. How do you see it?

Quote:

ROBERT: Ellen White, whom I agree with here, says it best:

"In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure [i.e., own way]; but all, from pure, genuine love [agape], will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132]

Yes, I agree too. The Bible views the self as a creation of God but which was perverted at the Fall and will eventually be completely restored. Isn't it already in the process of retoration under the gospel and by the influence of the Holy Spriit? It seems to me that is what the process of sanctification is all about: restoring us to God's image, in which the self is as God made it, healthy and whole.