"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[BobRyan]

I was saying we're very simple in comparison to God. So He often speaks in language that we can understand.

[Lutz13]

Obviously you don't. lol

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

The disciples new what death was, they just hadn't heard it referred to as sleep before. So when Jesus said "Lazarus is dead" he wasn't lying, if that's what you're trying to say. Lazarus really was dead. JESUS RAISED THE DEAD!!

You have proven my point here more than I ever wanted you too, as far as where this false doctrine can take you. Are you really trying to make the case that the dead are not really dead? Yes the Bible compares death to sleep, because they are going to be resurrected. If the first death isn't really a death, then why is the second death called THE SECOND DEATH?

Rev 2:11 ...He that overcomes shall not be hurt of the second death.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Nooooo! You're still not getting it! To God who sees far down the road, no one is dead because they all get woken up! Because the disciples were so hard headed and couldn't understand, God had to speak our simple language. The truth of the matter is, they are asleep and not dead! But there is a final death, and that is true. That is what us simple minded humans call the second death. But from Gods perspective which I am trying to explain here, no one is dead!

I agree. No one is really dead until they die the second death. The first death is a sleep.

sky

[Guest]

Bob, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what you are saying here is:

"As it turns out, God destroys the wicked after all, even though the Bible says He does."

So then you're not going to use the principle that turns the text upside down, and makes it say the opposite?

[Guest]

I think we got mixed up somewhere. Are you under the impression that I think there are ghost and spirits floating around that we can talk to? If you think that is what I was talking about, you're very far off.

When God caused the flood, He didn't kill those people. They were put to sleep... They aren't dead yet... To us, they are dead. To God they are not. That is what I was trying to explain. Then you go off on this whole thing about how I probably believe in ghost and blah blah blah... You are so quick to attack lol...Then belittle if you don't agree with it. Then you whine and point fingers.

You are being such a hypocrite it isn't even funny...You make it sound as if your theology is so much better and this character of God theology is a "joke" as you put it. You say I have a pride problem? Take the plank out of your own eye.

Ghosts? I didn't say anything about ghosts. Do you know what the five pillers of Adventism are? That Ellen White says not to mess with no matter what? One of them is "the state of the dead". Yes they are going to be brought back to life, and most of them will have to die again. Permanently. It's called the second death. They won't be any more dead the second time than they are now, as far as they're concerned. The dead know nothing. Ellen White knew this, God knows this, and I know this. You're just playing games with semantics.

Whine?

Hypocrite?

[Guest]

The first death is a sleep.

The second death is a sleep too. It just doesn't get interrupted.

[Tammy]

I agree. No one is really dead until they die the second death. The first death is a sleep.

sky

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

The fact is God knew Lucifer would sin, yet He created Lucifer anyway. Why? There are no answers.

This is half right. God knew Lucifer *could* sin. You're right that if God knew Lucifer would sin (as in sin would be 100% certain if God created Lucifer), there would be no answer to that. If God set in motion a course which was 100% certain to lead to sin, then God would be responsible for the existence of sin. It's quite a different thing if God set in motion a course of events which made sin merely possible, as opposed to certain.

We've discussed this, but I still disagree with you. God is omniscient. He can see into the future, if not then all the prophecies in the Bible would be wild guesses. God doesn't create the future, but He knows the future.

[Robert]

So you're saying that when the Bible says that Jesus raised the dead, it's not true?

Jesus, as one of us, never came up. He died the 2nd death. At the resurrection Jesus as God was raised with a new, glorified humanity. The old life...the life indwelt with sin and mortal, died forever.

[Robert]

us Adventists (God's people)

This is pride...this cultism...the is a self-righteous, holier than thou statement.

The Jews claimed to be God's remnant, commandment-keeping, non-pork eating people, but yet they nailed Christ to a wooden cross.

God's people are all who by faith claim Christ. Paul says, " There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

You see in the eyes of Christ their is no difference. The male is not superior to the female, the Jew isn't more spiritual than the Gentile, the slave is on equal standing with the free.

So Adventists are not more spiritual, more important, than the Baptist, the Methodist, etc. In Christ there is no hierarchy...no one group of Christians are better than another. If you belong to Christ you are all one...you are equals....

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Why does God say that He "was aroused against Israel and He [God] moved David . . . to . . . number Israel" when it was "Satan [who] stood up against Israel and moved David to number Israel"? Yes?

Why did God say that "He [God] killed him [saul]" when clearly "Saul took a sword and fell on it"?

Why did God say that "I will harden his heart" when again clearly "Pharoah hardened his [own] heart"?

Why did God say, "I...will strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt" when clearly it was "the destroyer"?

Why did God say "I will strike the Shepherd [Jesus]" when clearly God had "forsaken" Him, i.e., He was not present.

Why does God say that He "sends... a powerful delusion" to those who reject the truth when clearly it is "lying wonders...and every kind of deception" from Satan through the man of sin?

Why does God state that He "maketh the dumb", "deaf" and " blind" when clearly His creation of mankind was "fearfully and wonderfully made" so that even David said, "Wonderful are your works"?

Why did God tell Satan that "you (Satan) incited Me [God] against him [Job] to destroy him without cause" when it was clearly Satan who caused all of Job's problems (see Job 1:12)?

Yes, yes???

No answers, huh?

[BobRyan]

Bob, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what you are saying here is:

"As it turns out, God destroys the wicked after all, even though the Bible says He does."

So then you're not going to use the principle that turns the text upside down, and makes it say the opposite?

indeed!

And those who say that God used clear language to convey His meaning on this subject when speaking to His prophets-- have it right!

Turns out - God not only knows what will happen - He knows exactly how to convey the message.

So at the end of all the conversational smoke-and-mirrors hand-waiving and storytelling -- we can always come back to these clear statements - inspired by God - telling us in CLEAR language (so ALL can get the point) exactly what the plan is.

The information does not simply "go away" after a certain volume of wishful thinking and imaginative storytelling -- as it turns out.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

I agree. No one is really dead until they die the second death. The first death is a sleep.

sky

Quote:

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Another example Laval, of how you twist the Bible. It doesn't say, "the rest of the sleeping" lived not again...these people are DEAD....just as DEAD as those who die the 2nd Death.... When one heads down the road you have, away from believing the truth and accepting and believing what Fred Wright taught, there is no telling where one will end up.

Well we can agree that "the dead know not anything" and we agree that the "dust that is there BEFORE the 2nd resurrection and 2nd death vs the DUST that is left over AFTER the 2nd death" is NO BETTER INFORMED DUST.

But as for "just as dead" -- there is "one difference" as we see in Matt 10.

At the first death the spirit or soul is preserved and returns to God who gave it - but at the 2nd death it does not.

So according to Christ in Matt 10 -- there is actually "a difference" -

But the other "difference" is that the Rev 14 "torment day and night in fire and brimstone" is not sufferred by the wicked at the first death no matter how much that first death was "a natural consequence of their own sin".

in Christ,

Bob

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: sky

And we are told that what took place at the time of the French Revolution and the destruction of Jerusalem, are types of what will take place after the close of probation except that then God's restraining power will be fully removed from the agencies of evil and Satan will have entire control of the finally impenitent.

Where are we told this? I know about Jerusalem, but I'm curious about the French Revolution.

You must have missed my post about the French Revolution then.

God back a few pages.

sky

"When France publicly rejected God and set aside the Bible, wicked men and spirits of darkness exulted in their attainment of the object so long desired--a kingdom free from the restraints of the law of God. Because sentence against an evil work was not speedily executed, therefore the heart of the sons of men was fully set in them to do evil. Ecclesiastes 8:11. But the transgression of a just and righteous law must inevitably result in misery and ruin. Though not visited at once with judgments, the wickedness of men was nevertheless surely working out their doom. Centuries of apostasy and crime had been treasuring up wrath against the day of retribution; and when their iniquity was full, the despisers of God learned too late that it is a fearful thing to have worn out the divine patience. The restraining Spirit of God, which imposes a check upon the cruel power of Satan, was in a great measure removed, and he whose only delight is the wretchedness of men was permitted to work his will... 'The wicked shall fall by his own wickedness.'" The Great Controversy, 286.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

us Adventists (God's people)

This is pride...this cultism...the is a self-righteous, holier than thou statement.

The Jews claimed to be God's remnant, commandment-keeping, non-pork eating people, but yet they nailed Christ to a wooden cross.

God's people are all who by faith claim Christ. Paul says, " There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

You see in the eyes of Christ their is no difference. The male is not superior to the female, the Jew isn't more spiritual than the Gentile, the slave is on equal standing with the free.

So Adventists are not more spiritual, more important, than the Baptist, the Methodist, etc. In Christ there is no hierarchy...no one group of Christians are better than another. If you belong to Christ you are all one...you are equals....

Good Point

[skyblue888]

[pnattmbtc]

s:And we are told that what took place at the time of the French Revolution and the destruction of Jerusalem, are types of what will take place after the close of probation except that then God's restraining power will be fully removed from the agencies of evil and Satan will have entire control of the finally impenitent.

p:Where are we told this? I know about Jerusalem, but I'm curious about the French Revolution.

s:You must have missed my post about the French Revolution then.

[pnattmbtc]

The reason that made it into scripture, was to help us Adventists(God's people) prove what the truth is about the state of the dead.

Lol!

[pnattmbtc]

We've discussed this, but I still disagree with you. God is omniscient. He can see into the future, if not then all the prophecies in the Bible would be wild guesses. God doesn't create the future, but He knows the future.

Sure, God knows the future, but the future isn't fixed. It wasn't inevitable that Lucifer would sin. He could have just as easily (more easily, in fact) have not sinned. And God knew that when He created him.

[Guest]

The future isn't fixed, but He still knows how it will turn out. He knows the end from the beginning.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

So you're saying that when the Bible says that Jesus raised the dead, it's not true?

Jesus, as one of us, never came up. He died the 2nd death.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

The future isn't fixed, but He still knows how it will turn out. He knows the end from the beginning.

You can know the end from the beginning without knowing every path that gets there. For example, a chess master can know a game is completely won without having to know which specific moves his opponent will choose.

It wasn't inevitable that sin would occur. God did not set into motion a course of action which could only result in sin.

[Guest]

So He knows what happens at point A, and He knows what happens at point B. But he doesn't have a clue as to what's going to happen in between? Come on, I know you're smarter than that. It's not ALL just book knowledge is it? Summon up some of your reasoning powers. Either He knows everything, or He doesn't. There is no halfway point to knowing ALL. You're saying God knows ALMOST everything.

I wouldn't want to have to defend that position. He obviously knew sin was going to happen, because the plan of redemption was already in place before it ever happened.

[pnattmbtc]

God knows everything that's knowable. The future is potential until it becomes reality. This is what God knows: the future as potential, which is what it is.

Consider DA 49, which says that God sent His Son at the risk of failure and eternal loss. There was risk involved, for God, because the future is not certain. If the future were certain, there would be no risk involved.

If the future were certain, then when God created Lucifer, He set in motion a course of action which could only result in sin. That would make Him responsible for the existence of sin. It is only because it wasn't inevitable that sin should occur that the responsibility lies with Satan.

[Guest]

God knows everything that's knowable. The future is potential until it becomes reality. This is what God knows: the future as potential, which is what it is.

Consider DA 49, which says that God sent His Son at the risk of failure and eternal loss. There was risk involved, for God, because the future is not certain. If the future were certain, there would be no risk involved.

If the future were certain, then when God created Lucifer, He set in motion a course of action which could only result in sin. That would make Him responsible for the existence of sin. It is only because it wasn't inevitable that sin should occur that the responsibility lies with Satan.

I hate to say it pnat, but you're wrong as usual. There is nothing God cannot know. Yes the choice is yours, but He already knows what you will choose. Have a look see:

Before Sin Arose, God Had a Plan

God and Christ knew from the beginning, of the apostasy of Satan and of the fall of Adam through the deceptive power of the apostate. The plan of salvation was designed to redeem the fallen race, to give them another trial. Christ was appointed to the office of Mediator from the creation of God, set up from everlasting to be our substitute and surety.—1SM 250. {TA 24.4}

Known unto God are all His works, and from eternal ages the covenant of grace (unmerited favor) existed in the mind of God. It is called the everlasting covenant; for the plan of salvation was not conceived after the fall of man, but it was that which was “kept in silence through times eternal, but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations unto obedience of faith.” Romans 16:25, 26, A.R.V.—ST Dec. 5, 1914. {TA 25.1}

The plan for our redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam. It was a revelation of “the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal.” Romans 16:25, R.V. It was an unfolding of the principles that from eternal ages have been the foundation of God's throne. . . . God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency .—DA 22. {TA 25.2}