"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[Robert]

shooting is a sport and a hobby to millions across this country. You really should get out more. But I don't have to explain anything to you. You just keep right on assuming.

Got me....

[pnattmbtc]

p:The "whole purpose" of Jesus Christ's mission was "the revelation of God." Where do we see in Jesus Christ's life or teachings that force or violence had any part to play whatsoever in the Kingdom He was establishing? Where do we see force or violence as a part of God's character in what Jesus Christ revealed?

J:If you mean where do the Gospels indicate or reveal that God will destroy Satan and the rest of the wicked-- or where do they show that God uses any kind of "violence" against sin and Satan et al-- it is in the following:

How did Jesus Christ treat those who sought violence against Him? What did Jesus say in relation to violence? He said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight." He said, "He who lives by the sword will die by the sword." He said, "Love your enemies" (not "Kill your enemies.")

Do you think Jesus Christ was pro or anti violence, based on the way He lived and taught? This is what I meant.

[Lutz13]

Quote:

Ellen G. White: "Who will say God will NOT do what He says He will do?" 12 MR 207-209; 10 MR 265

Quote:

ROBERT: That's right....He does what He wants...He is above the law....If He wants to sin, hey...He is God. If if wishes to get drunk and cap a few folks, hey, He is God...He can do as He pleases. Hey, He might drown you today, John....but whatever, that's fine with me...He is God! Don't you agree, John? Yes...I do.

Yes, the Bible says God does as He pleases. He certainly loves all humanity and has no pleasure in the death of the wicked. He is unselfish, and He always does the right thing. But He decides what is right and wrong without consulting human beings. It's not left up to people to tell God what to do. And yes, God is above the law. He makes all law, and therefore it should be obvious that the law is not above Him.

But yet there's the Investigative Judgment, and one can't help seeing from studying it that God also cares very much what his intelligent creatures think of Him. He even submits his actions and decisions to them in an open forum for them to discuss and ask questions and find answers. This also comes out in how he told his friend Abraham what he was going to do to the people of Sodom. He didn't have to tell Abraham about it, but that's the kind of God we worship, serve and admire.

I don't have a problem with God's destroying the wicked exactly the way the Bible teaches He will. I trust Him. He knows exactly what He's doing. If I find out that I'm wrong about this topic and that the Bible only meant those descriptions in a metaphorical way, that will be fine, too. I have no argument with God. Whatever He does is right and good. He's proved it. He deserves our trust.

You guys look at the law too much. The law was simply an emergency measure that God had to use. The law is simply what we will become if we allow God to turn us into that. Which means He is the same way. His character is defined by those laws, just as ours will be.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

JOHN3:17: Yes, as mentioned before, the complete fall of Satan did not happen at once. It was progressive. He was "banished from heaven" and "the gates of heaven were barred against him" so that "he could not" re-enter heaven-- all this took place before the creation of the earth. He was cast down again at the time of the cross when Satan's true character and plans were clearly seen for the first time by the onlooking universe.

Quote:

pnattmbtc: How could Satan have been "cast down" again from heaven, if he wasn't there?

It doesn't say Satan was cast out of heaven twice, nor does it say God banished Satan from heaven two times. Satan could not enter heaven but he could go to the entrance and taunt the loyal angels until the death of Christ. (Once Satan was banished from heaven and was told there was no more place for him there, he could not go and come there as he pleased, but it's possible that for a period of time, God gave him permission to represent the earth at the councils where representatives of the various worlds were in attendence.)

Study vol. 1 of the Spirit of Prophecy, pages 22-23; EW 146, 147; GC 498-504; DA 761-764.

DA 761 is referring to the cross, in reference to Rev. 12:10. If you want to say that there is only one time when Satan was cast down, and this was it, that's fine. Please notice this wasn't done by force.

[pnattmbtc]

pnattmbtc (quoting Ellen White): It's not an arbitrary act of power on the part of God that excludes Satan from heaven, but his unfitness to be present there, an unfitness caused by his own actions. One cannot live by the principles of selfishness and find heaven a desirable place to be. No, for such, heaven is a place of torture, a place of consuming fire, a place to flee from.

J:Yes, this is a good quote showing God's reasons for doing what He does, but it's also necessary to study other statements on this same subject in order to get the whole picture.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Continued from my last post 334063

This is beautifully illustrated in the experience of Elijah at Horeb. He had fled from Jezebel in fear and discouragement to take refuge in a cave.

"And he came thither unto a cave, and lodged there; and, behold, the word of the Lord came to him, and He said unto him, What doest thou here, Elijah? And he said, I have been very jealous for the Lord God of hosts: for the children of Israel have forsaken Thy covenant, thrown down Thine altars, and slain Thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away. And He said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the Lord. And, behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the Lord; but the Lord was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the Lord was not in the earthquake: And after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice. And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, there came a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah?" 1 Kings 19:9-12.

how many of us meditate on this?

In the midst of all the violence and mayhem of the ot are these gems scattered throughout that we overlook because the other is so "visible". we believe the visible is the reality, while it is the heavenly things that are the reality.

the visible will all pass away.

_________________________________

Yes, so true teresa, how much time do we take to meditate upon these verses?

In the Desire of Ages, p.217, we read:

"The works of Christ not only declared Him to be the Messiah, but showed in what manner His kingdom was to be established. To John was opened the same truth that had come to Elijah in the desert, when "a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the Lord; but the Lord was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the Lord was not in the earthquake: and after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire:" and after the fire, God spoke to the prophet by "a still small voice." 1 Kings 19:11, 12. So Jesus was to do His work, not with the clash of arms and the overturning of thrones and kingdoms, but through speaking to the hearts of men by a life of mercy and self-sacrifice."

Back on page 215, speaking of John the Baptist, we read, "Like the prophet Elijah, in whose spirit and power he had come to Israel, he looked for the Lord to reveal himself as a God that answereth by fire."

If both of these two great prophets had misunderstood and misinterpreted the character of God, should we be surprised if we find that we have done the very same thing?

Considering the fact that for Elijah and John the Baptist, tradition and misinterpretation had obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin, should the following statement come to us as a big surprise?

"The understanding of the people of God has been blinded, for Satan has misrepresented the character of God. Our good and gracious Lord has been presented before the people clothed in the attributes of Satan, and men and women who have been seeking for truth, have so long regarded God in a false light that it is difficult to dispel the cloud that obscures His glory from their view. Many have been living in an atmosphere of doubt, and it seems almost impossible for them to lay hold of the hope set before them in the Gospel of Christ." 1 S.M.355.

sky

[pnattmbtc]

The law was simply an emergency measure that God had to use. The law is simply what we will become if we allow God to turn us into that. Which means He is the same way. His character is defined by those laws, just as ours will be.

Another point, very similar to this, is that the law is descriptive of reality, as opposed to creating reality.

[Lutz13]

Originally Posted By: Lutz

The law was simply an emergency measure that God had to use. The law is simply what we will become if we allow God to turn us into that. Which means He is the same way. His character is defined by those laws, just as ours will be.

Another point, very similar to this, is that the law is descriptive of reality, as opposed to creating reality.

Would just like to add:

"So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord. And the Lord -- who is the Spirit -- makes us more and more like Him as we are changed into His glorious image." -- 2nd Corinthians 3:18 NLT

That image is pretty much the laws that were handed down at Sinai. This image is what humanity was before the fall. Yet we stare at a bunch of rules instead of looking at Him who is the cure.

[Robert]

John believes God is above the law in the same manner that our US leaders sometimes think that they are above the law. And so when you do something wrong you get punished, but when they do the same thing, well, they are above the law. What do they call such individuals? Hypocrites....

If God tells me to love my enemies and then He turns around and slowly cooks them for many days then I'll question God. In fact I'll wonder if I'm dealing with God or Satan. Hence it is very important to understand that God is not above His law.

This is simple to prove. The Bible says "God is agape". This simply means God loves not Himself, but His creation both good and bad. That's called unconditional love. Since God IS agape and since "agape is the fulfillment of the law" God is the fulfillment of the law. Agape is not something God does on the side, it's who He is....

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

shooting is a sport and a hobby to millions across this country. You really should get out more. But I don't have to explain anything to you. You just keep right on assuming.

Got me....

You surprise me Robert. Just when I think your head is too hard to penetrate, you do something like this.

[John317]

How did Jesus Christ treat those who sought violence against Him? What did Jesus say in relation to violence? He said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight." He said, "He who lives by the sword will die by the sword." He said, "Love your enemies" (not "Kill your enemies.")

Do you think Jesus Christ was pro or anti violence, based on the way He lived and taught? This is what I meant.

Jesus treated people the same way the Father treats people, and the way God wants us to treat people, with unselfish love. Christ is our example and He perfectly obeyed His Father's commandments.

Remember that Jesus came to save, not destroy. John 3: 17. He came to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. He did not come then as King of kings and as Judge, but as Sacrifice and Savior. When He comes the second time, he comes as King and Judge, and "without sin unto salvation." Heb. 9: 28. He won't be coming to cleanse people of their sins. He won't have anything more to do with sin. It will be too late then to confess and seek forgiveness.

You get a picture of Him in Rev. 19: llff. At that time He will come to "judge and make war." The wicked are destroyed when He comes. They become food for the birds which will devour their corpses. Verse 21 says "all the fowls were [will be] filled with" the flesh of the wicked.

At the second coming those who are lost will have destroyed themselves by their daily choices. They make themselves into what they are, just as Lucifer made himself into the Devil and the Satan. The same brightness that is light and life to the righteous will be death to those who haven't separated sin from themselves during the time of probation God has given us. They haven't followed Christ's work in the heavenly sanctuary.

[John317]

You guys look at the law too much. The law was simply an emergency measure that God had to use. The law is simply what we will become if we allow God to turn us into that. Which means He is the same way. His character is defined by those laws, just as ours will be.

Actually I totally agree with you, and I've been writing this very thing over the last 6 years.

The Old Covenant was about the law of God on stone, exterior to ourselves. By contrast, the New Covenant is about the same law, except that it is to be written by the Holy Spirit on our minds and hearts, i.e., in our very lives. That law, as you say, is really God's character. It reminds me that Jesus said that God's law-- really, the Father's character-- was within His heart. Ps. 40: 6. Jesus was in the "spittin' image" of His Father.

[John317]

Quote:

JOHN3:17: It doesn't say Satan was cast out of heaven twice, nor does it say God banished Satan from heaven two times. Satan could not enter heaven but he could go to the entrance and taunt the loyal angels until the death of Christ. (Once Satan was banished from heaven and was told there was no more place for him there, he could not go and come there as he pleased, but it's possible that for a period of time, God gave him permission to represent the earth at the councils where representatives of the various worlds were in attendence.)

Study vol. 1 of the Spirit of Prophecy, pages 22-23; EW 146, 147; GC 498-504; DA 761-764.

Quote:

pnattmbtc: DA 761 is referring to the cross, in reference to Rev. 12:10. If you want to say that there is only one time when Satan was cast down, and this was it, that's fine. Please notice this wasn't done by force.

Neither the Bible nor Ellen White teach that there was only one casting out of Satan. Satan was cast out of heaven at the end of the war in heaven. That transferred the war from heaven to earth. The war in heaven described in v. 7 was regarding the transference of authority and rule to Christ. This is what Satan opposed and made war against. Ellen White says Satan wished to conquer the Son of God.

I don't believe the casting down of Satan at the cross was "the only time when Satan was cast down," or "cast out."

The Bible says that Satan and his angels were "cast out" of heaven before the cross, and Ellen White agrees. Rev. 12: 9, 11. But there was a second "casting out" of Satan at the cross. (I've said this a number of time.) THIS POINT REGARDING MORE THAN ONE CASTING OUT IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT TO KEEP IN MIND. See end of post for further comment on the second casting out of Satan.

In regard to the first casting out, Ellen White says, "All the heavenly host were summoned to appear before the Father to have each case decided. It was there DETERMINED THAT SATAN SHOULD BE EXPELLED FROM HEAVEN, WITH ALL THE ANGELS WHO HAD JOINED HIM IN THE REBELLION. THEN THERE WAS WAR. Angels were engaged in the battle; Satan wished to conquer the Son of God and those who were submissive to His will. But the good and true angels prevailed, and Satan, with his followers, WAS DRIVEN FROM HEAVEN.

"AFTER Satan and those who fell with him were SHUT OUT OF HEAVEN... he repented, and wished to be reinstated in heaven." Then Ellen White goes on to say that Satan discovered that there was "NO POSSIBILITY of his being brought again into favor with God." EW 146. Elsewhere she says that at that point, Satan "could not" return.

Ellen White uses such expressions as the following to describe Satan's casting out of heaven thousands of years before the cross: "thrust out of heaven" (PP 69; 1 T 534); "driven out of heaven," "turned out," "the gates barred against him," "expelled from heaven" (1 T 626); "cast out of heaven" (GC 582); "cast out from the courts of God" (CT 32, 33); and the list goes on and on and on. Notice that these phrases all come from portions of the Spirit of Prophecy describing what occurred before the creation of Adam.

WHAT HAPPENED AT THE CROSS IS HOW GOD WINS GREAT CONTROVERSY AGAINST SATAN, NOT THROUGH FORCE BUT THROUGH OPENNESS AND TRUTH. God didn't win the war against Him by force. His expulsion of Satan and the other evil angels from heaven didn't win the war against Satan. It merely transferred the war and the rebellion from heaven to earth. This is what I've been saying ever since my first post on this thread.

The war in heaven described in v. 7 was regarding the transference of authority and rule to Christ. This is what Satan opposed and made war against. Ellen White says Satan wished to conquer the Son of God.

[Guest]

WHAT HAPPENED AT THE CROSS IS HOW GOD WINS GREAT CONTROVERSY AGAINST SATAN, NOT THROUGH FORCE BUT THROUGH OPENNESS AND TRUTH. God didn't win the war against him by force. His expelling Satan and the other evil angels from heaven didn't win the war against Satan. It merely transferred the war and the rebellion to the earth. This is what I've been saying ever since my first post on this thread.

He's telling the truth. I've been saying the same thing.

[phkrause]

WHAT HAPPENED AT THE CROSS IS HOW GOD WINS THE GREAT CONTROVERSY AGAINST SATAN, NOT THROUGH FORCE BUT THROUGH OPENNESS AND TRUTH. God didn't win the war against Him by force. His expulsion of Satan and the other evil angels from heaven didn't win the war against Satan. It merely transferred the war and the rebellion from heaven to earth. This is what I've been saying ever since my first post on this thread.

The war in heaven described in v. 7 was regarding the transference of authority and rule to Christ. This is what Satan opposed and made war against. Ellen White says Satan wished to conquer the Son of God.

Excellent post John

[John317]

Many thanks, pk. By the way, from 'way out West. Sun's just now going behind the hills.

[phkrause]

Many thanks, pk. By the way, from 'way out West. Sun's just now going behind the hills.

back at you John, and as the sun goes by give it a good kick so that it makes it back around.

pk

[pnattmbtc]

p:How did Jesus Christ treat those who sought violence against Him? What did Jesus say in relation to violence? He said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight." He said, "He who lives by the sword will die by the sword." He said, "Love your enemies" (not "Kill your enemies.")

Do you think Jesus Christ was pro or anti violence, based on the way He lived and taught? This is what I meant.

J:Jesus treated people the same way the Father treats people, and the way God wants us to treat people, with unselfish love. Christ is our example and He perfectly obeyed His Father's commandments.

[John317]

I've been saying the same thing.

And that's the truth, I know it. It's been posted probably half a dozen times or more. OH well. lol

[pnattmbtc]

The Old Covenant was about the law of God on stone, exterior to ourselves. By contrast, the New Covenant is about the same law, except that it is to be written by the Holy Spirit on our minds and hearts, i.e., in our very lives. That law, as you say, is really God's character. It reminds me that Jesus said that God's law-- really, the Father's character-- was within His heart. Ps. 40: 6. Jesus was in the "spittin' image" of His Father.

Well said!

It amazes me that on the one hand you can write this, and on the other think that God will set people on fire to make them suffer torture for days at a time. This is certainly not Jesus Christ!

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: John317

WHAT HAPPENED AT THE CROSS IS HOW GOD WINS GREAT CONTROVERSY AGAINST SATAN, NOT THROUGH FORCE BUT THROUGH OPENNESS AND TRUTH. God didn't win the war against him by force. His expelling Satan and the other evil angels from heaven didn't win the war against Satan. It merely transferred the war and the rebellion to the earth. This is what I've been saying ever since my first post on this thread.

He's telling the truth. I've been saying the same thing.

But this isn't right. The war wasn't "merely transferred." It wasn't until the cross that the war was decided in heaven. "It Is Finished" from "The Desire of Ages" brings this out.

[Robert]

God is above the law. He makes all law, and therefore it should be obvious that the law is not above Him.

[pnattmbtc]

Ellen White says Satan wished to conquer the Son of God.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

When God said He killed Saul He is assuming the blame for the results of sin. If God hadn't created Lucifer we would have no sin, but since God allowed sin to develop He assumes the blame. Since He is sovereign He describes Himself as actually doing what He has allowed.

Yet in the end the blame for sin will be placed on Satan. He is responsible for our bent-to-self (iniquity). This is explained in the OT where it speaks of the two goats.

So when God says that He caused the flood that killed billions of people, He, in reality, is assuming the responsibility for the result of sin. Because the human race at that time almost universally reject God, He abandoned them to their choice. What happened then?

Deut 31:17 Many disasters and difficulties will come upon them, and on that day they will ask, 'Have not these disasters come upon us because our God is not with us?'

Well said.

[John317]

Quote:

JOHN3:17: Remember that Jesus came to save, not destroy. John 3: 17.

Quote:

pnattmbtc: Indeed! This is God's character. He is the restorer, not the destroyer. Always and forever.

I agree with you. However, a lot of people think of God as a someone who won't ever destroy sinners in what Jesus called "the gehenna of fire." They think that if God were to do that, it would mean He changed. But not so. His destruction of the wicked will be the result of His mercy and His agape-love. It is called His "strange work" because it could appear to some to be contrary to His character but it's actually in complete harmony with His character.

What do you think of the following quotes from Ellen White?

"The men who prompty and speedily executed the divine judgments upon those heathen nations have been pronounced harsh and unmerciful in destroying so many human lives. But all who reason thus, fail to understand the character and dealings of God. In His infinite mercy, the Lord had long spared those idolatrous nations, giving them evidence upon evidence that He, the mighty Jehovah, was the God whom they should serve. He had commanded Moses not to make war upon Moab or Midian, for their cup of iniquity was not yet full. Additional evidence was to be given... When, at the suggestion of Balaam, the snare was laid for Israel, which resulted in the destruction of thousands, then it was that the Midianites filled up the measure of their inquities. Then their day of probation ended, and the door of mercy was to them closed and the MANDATE went forth FROM HIM who can create and can destroy...

"... leave to the Lord to deal with the work of His hands according to His own wise purposes...

"God's method of dealing with sin is not in harmony with the views cherished by a large class who occupy a prominent position among the professed followers of Christ. Many of these men cheerish sin, and laud the benevolence and long-suffering of God, and dwell upon the loving character of Jesus,-- all mercy, all tenderness,-- while they pass over the threatenings of God's wrath against sin and sinners, and our Savior's scathing denunciations of hypocrisy and self-deception. It is those who have not a keen sense of the exceeding sinfulness of sin and are ready to question the justice of God in punishing with such severity the sins of the Amalekites, Canaanites, and Midianites. Those who love sin are unable to comprehend God's dealings with His subjects...

"...God is merciful and compassionate, but He is also just. Let the cross of Calvary forever settle this matter. As surely as Christ, the guiltless, suffered for the guilty, so surely will the wrath of God fall upon the heads of those who persist in their transgression of His law." ST, Jan. 6, 1881.

"The whole universe will have bcome witnesses to the nature and results of sin. And its utter extermination, which in the beginning would have brought fear to angels and dishonor to God, will NOW [at the time of the final destruction of the wicked] vindicate His love and establish His honor before the universe of beings who delight to do His will, and in whose heart is His law." GC 504.

"God executes justice upon the wicked, for the good of the universe, and even for the good of all those upon whom His judgments are visited... It is in mercy to the universe that God will finally destroy the rejectors of His grace." GC 541, 543.

====================================================

There are some who even deny that God really ever gave commands for the childrren of Israel to destroy and kill people. But Ellen White says that "all who reason thus, fail to understand the character and dealings of God."