"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[skyblue888]

Just curious. How could it be a real war in heaven when God would just have to think and Satan and his followers would disappear forever?

Do you think they were up there fighting with light sabers and God just stood there and played with them?

After reading your comment I couldn't help but post this, which I have already posted before in a prior discussion on this topic.

"And there was war in Heaven: Michael and His angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in Heaven, and the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world."

To millions, these words have pictured an intense physical struggle between the forces loyal to Heaven and the rebels. It has been seen as a conflict involving the use of physical power versus physical power. Great artists have portrayed Christ at the head of hordes of shining angels standing with an unsheathed sword before which Lucifer is plunging downwards into the darkness of empty space.

But this is a superficial and inaccurate view of the nature of the struggle. It is a view consequent with the practice of seeing God's behavior as being identical to man's. There was war in Heaven, it is true, but not war as men fight. Satan was cast out, but it was God's way of doing it, not man's.

As pnatt has often quoted:

"God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy and love; and the presentation of these principles are the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power." Desire of Ages, p.759.

In that struggle then, God did not use force. This weapon is never found in His Kingdom but only in that of Satan's. Therefore, it was by another way that Satan was cast out of Heaven, never to return. God fought with none other than the weapons consistent with His Kingdom. It is difficult for sinful man to understand the nature of those weapons for they are so foreign to his experience and nature.

The struggle in Heaven was a very real one nonetheless. It was war, a total effort on Satan's part to change the entire structure of Heaven's order and organization. In order to succeed, he needed to convert the angels' allegiance away from God to himself. At that time the only sword Satan could use was that of deception, against which God used only the weapon of truth. The battle raged on over a considerable time span until the point was reached where the devil had penetrated as far as he could. Each angel had made his choice with sufficient numbers standing for the truth to enable God to maintain His position as Protector of the heavenly hosts. With God's continued presence assured, there was no hope of the proposed new order being established. The old and proven order would remain. But Satan's deformation had brought him into such disharmony with those principles that he found it impossible to remain where they continued to operate. To him, Heaven had become a place that was foreign, unacceptable, and unendurable, and he could not leave it quickly enough.

It was the truth of God which drove him out, not the use of any kind of physical force. The same reason for Satan's leaving Heaven is the reason why the wicked would never be happy if they were to go there. They would not be able to tolerate the place and would want to leave it as soon as possible. They would be driven out by their sheer unfitness to remain:

"Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to Heaven, and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there, every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor to God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sits upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for Heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of Heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion has unfitted them for Heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from Heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God." The Great Controversy, 542,543.

Confirmation of this is already available. The worldly and ungodly today find that the society of true Christians engaged in devoted worship of God is intolerable to them and they desire only to leave such society. They are happier elsewhere. Satan's rejection of the ways and principles of God in exchange for other pursuits so worked changes in him that he could no longer suffer its holy atmosphere. Being there was such torture to his deranged nature that he had to go and go he did.

As Pharaoh's heart was hardened by his continual resistance of God's efforts to save him, so Lucifer's whole being was warped by his fighting off God's loving efforts to draw him and his followers back from the abyss into which their steps were surely taking them. This is how Satan was driven from Heaven, not by God directly driving him out, but by His efforts to save him.

"My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways, says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8,9.

sky

[Robert]

"God judicially sends hardness of heart on those who have rejected the the truth, and gives them up in righteous judgment to Satan's delusions (Is. 6: 9, 10; Rom. 1: 24-26, 28). They first cast off the love of the truth, then God gives them up to Satan's delusions, then they settle down into "believing the lie":

No John...you can't make that argument....What does it say?

"God will send them strong delusion"! Who? Not Satan, not the man of sin, but God....God does it!

You must take the Bible as it reads....

Rob

[Robert]

No John...you can't make that argument....What does it say?

"God will send them strong delusion"! Who? Not Satan, not the man of sin, but God....God does it!

You must take the Bible as it reads....

Rob

Gen 7:21 And all flesh died that moved on the earth: birds and cattle and beasts and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, and every man. 22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, all that was on the dry land, died. 23 So He [God] destroyed all living things which were on the face of the ground: both man and cattle, creeping thing and bird of the air. They were destroyed from the earth.

Did God do it? No! What happened? God gives them up!....

Yes John? I bet you'll change now....You can't have it both ways....

[John317]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Thats a good point.

Yes, it is...

I mean that would be John's argument! He would say, What does it say? "God will send them strong delusion"! Who? Not Satan, not the man of sin, but God....God does it...He deceives them. Do you believe the Bible? I do....

This is false.

I don't know of any Seventh-day Adventists who say that the verse means God deceives the lost.

I would like to know if you can tell of anyone or of any quote signifying that they believe God deceives the wicked?

What you say here only reflects your lack of understanding of what Seventh-day Adventists teach on this subject. See books such as Seventh-day Adventists Believe.

Please notice this good quote on 2 Thess. 2: 9, from Jamieson, Fausset & Brown's Commentary, which is very similar to the comment in the SDA BC as well as in numerous books by Seventh-day Adventist scholars, teachers, and theologians:

"God judicially sends hardness of heart on those who have rejected the the truth, and gives them up in righteous judgment to Satan's delusions (Is. 6: 9, 10; Rom. 1: 24-26, 28). They first cast off the love of the truth, then God gives them up to Satan's delusions, then they settle down into "believing the lie": an awful climax (1 Kings 22: 22, 23; Ezekiel 14: 9; Job 12: 16; Matt. 24: 5, 11; 1 Tim 4: 1)."

That is exactly what happens.

[Robert]

I don't know of any Seventh-day Adventists who say that the verse means God deceives the lost.

That's what it says, John!....Take it just as it reads....God sends them a delusion....That'll teach 'em....Huh?

Rob

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Robert

2 Thess 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders [deception], 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth [the gospel], that they might be saved.

11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Here's how my opponents would read verse 11:

What does it say? "God will send them strong delusion"! Who? Not Satan, not the man of sin, but God....God does it...He deceives them.

Who believes this? This is a straw-man argument. I don't know of any Seventh-day Adventists who say that the verse means God deceives the lost.

I would like to know if you can tell of anyone or of any quote signifying that they believe God deceives the wicked?

Please notice this good quote on 2 Thess. 2: 9, from Jamieson, Fausset & Brown's Commentary:

"God judicially sends hardness of heart on those who have rejected the the truth, and gives them up in righteous judgment to Satan's delusions (Is. 6: 9, 10; Rom. 1: 24-26, 28). They first cast off the love of the truth, then God gives them up to Satan's delusions, then they settle down into "believing the lie": an awful climax (1 Kings 22: 22, 23; Ezekiel 14: 9; Job 12: 16; Matt. 24: 5, 11; 1 Tim 4: 1)."

That is exactly what happens.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

John, thank you. You are right. As far as I know, no adventist has any difficulty seeing that this verse does not mean that God directly deceives people. This is something everybody can see and understand. It is an admission on our part then that when God says that He sends strong delusion that it does not mean that He personally and directly deceives people into believing a lie so that they might be damned. But we understand that "As they reject the teachings of His word, God withdraws His Spirit and leaves them to the deceptions which they love." This is a direct commentary on 2 Thess.2:12 taken from The Great Controversy, p.431.

We also agree about the verse that says that "God hardened Pharaoh's heart." We agree that God did not directly harden Pharaoh's heart but that by resisting the light that God sent him, there was a hardening that took place in Pharaoh's heart. This is how God hardened his heart. It is the same with the verse that says that "God slew Saul." We know that God did not directly kill him but that Saul was left with no protection from his own evil passions and from the malice and enmity of Satan. So Saul killed himself. He fell on his own sword. 1 Chron.10:14,4.

Why then can we not read other passages of Scripture in the same way using the same principle of interpretation? Like when we read that "Fire came out from God out of heaven," or when God said, at the time of the flood, "I will destroy man whom I have created," or when we read these words, "God rained fire and brimstone upon Sodom and Gomorrah."

sky

[Robert]

We also agree about the verse that says that "God hardened Pharaoh's heart." We agree that God did not directly harden Pharaoh's heart but that by resisting the light that God sent him, there was a hardening that took place in Pharaoh's heart. This is how God hardened his heart. It is the same with the verse that says that "God slew Saul." We know that God did not directly kill him but that Saul was left with no protection from his own evil passions and from the malice and enmity of Satan. So Saul killed himself. He fell on his own sword. 1 Chron.10:14,4.

Why then can we not read other passages of Scripture in the same way using the same principle of interpretation?

Because God says He kills, so He must....Take it as it reads....That's how John will reply....For some reason He desires a God who acts sinfully....Can't figure it out....

[Guest]

It's not a sin for God to kill.

[John317]

Gen 7:21 And all flesh died that moved on the earth: birds and cattle and beasts and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, and every man. 22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, all that was on the dry land, died. 23 So He [God] destroyed all living things which were on the face of the ground: both man and cattle, creeping thing and bird of the air. They were destroyed from the earth.

Did God do it? No! What happened? God gives them up!....

Yes John? I bet you'll change now....You can't have it both ways....

God directly caused the flood that drowned the the vast world.

As Ellen White says, "God drowned the vast world." 12 MR 207-209; 10 MR 265

That is far different from God "deceiving" people.

The Bible explains the verses such as 2 Thess. 2: 9 and those regarding the death of Saul and the lying spirit of 2 Kings 22: 22.

But nowhere does the Bible say that God does not destroy the wicked, yet it does say that God cannot lie. In fact, both the Bible and Ellen White distinctly say over and over and over again that God will destroy the wicked. You know where the Bible states this. It leaves absolutely no doubt. The only way around it, I believe, is to jump to conclusions on the basis of a few verses taken out of context; but you know yourself that the language of the Bible concerning this is direct and crystal clear. The wicked do not kill themselves or each other. Both their sentencing and execution of the judgment comes directly from God Himself. The wicked are not in charge of the execution of the judgment. They do not kill one another or commit suicide. That would not bring justice. (Yes, they do attack and fight each other, and they do attempt to destroy Satan, but neither the Bible nor Ellen White give evidence that they actually succeed in these attempts. Justice is not served by having criminals slaughter one another.)

Here's Ellen White:

"In mercy to the world, God blotted out its wicked inhabitants in Noah's time. In mercy He destroyed the corrupt dwellers in Sodom... it is so in our time. It is IN MERCY to the universe that GOD WILL FINALLY DESTROY THE REJECTERS OF HIS GRACE." GC 543

Ellen White does not speak of God destroying when it was really Satan doing the destroying. She distinguishes the destroying power of the angels of God and the destructive power of the fallen angels:

"The same destructive power exercied by holy angels of God when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits." GC 614.

She is very clear that it was an "angel of God" who slayed the first-born of Egypt. So is the Bible.

It can be proved that God is the One who brought the plagues upon Egypt. The third plague was a plague of gnats, and the Bible says the dust became gnats. Ex. 8: 17. But Satan cannot create life from dust. Only God can do that. Therefore God brought this plague, and Ellen White and the Bible say that God also brought the last plague.

[Lutz13]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Gen 7:21 And all flesh died that moved on the earth: birds and cattle and beasts and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, and every man. 22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, all that was on the dry land, died. 23 So He [God] destroyed all living things which were on the face of the ground: both man and cattle, creeping thing and bird of the air. They were destroyed from the earth.

Did God do it? No! What happened? God gives them up!....

Yes John? I bet you'll change now....You can't have it both ways....

God directly caused the flood that drowned the the vast world.

As Ellen White says, "God drowned the vast world." 12 MR 207-209; 10 MR 265

That is far different from God "deceiving" people. Nowhere does the Bible say that God does not destroy the wicked, but it does say that God cannot lie. In fact, both the Bible and Ellen White distinctly say over and over and over again that God will destroy the wicked. You know where the Bible states this. It leaves absolutely no doubt. The only way around it is to just to conclusions on the basis of a few verses taken out of context, but you know yourself that the language of the Bible concerning this is direct and crystal clear. The wicked do not kill themselves or each other. Both their sentencing and execution of the judgment comes directly from God Himself. The wicked are not in charge of the execution of the judgment. they do That would not bring justice.

Here's Ellen White:

"In mercy to the world, God blotted out its wicked inhabitants in Noah's time. In mercy He destroyed the corrupt dwellers in Sodom... it is so in our time. It is IN MERCY to the universe that GOD WILL FINALLY DESTROY THE REJECTERS OF HIS GRACE." GC 543

Ellen White did not speak of God destroying when it was really Satan doing the destroying. She distinguishes the destroying power of the angels of God and the destructive power of the fallen angels:

"The same destructive power exercied by holy angels of God when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits." GC 614. She is very clear that it was an "angel of God" who slayed the first-born of Egypt. So is the Bible.

It can be proved that God is the One who brought the plagues upon Egypt. The third plague was a plague of gnats, and the Bible says the dust became gnats. But Satan cannot create life from dust. Only God can do that. Therefore God brought this plague, and Ellen White and the Bible say that God also brought the last plague.

Will you tell your god to please remove the gun from my head?

[Guest]

There's no gun there. He is offering you a way out, but you don't have to take it.

[Lutz13]

There's no gun there. He is offering you a way out, but you don't have to take it.

Yes, He is applying medicine to cure my sin disease right now.

[Guest]

It's terrible what sin has caused, but we cannot blame it on God. He is offering the cure to everyone. It's a shame that most will not take it.

[Lutz13]

It's terrible what sin has caused, but we cannot blame it on God. He is offering the cure to everyone. It's a shame that most will not take it.

I know. It is really sad.

[John317]

Quote:

LUTZ13: Will you tell your god to please remove the gun from my head?

He doesn't have a gun to your head. I don't view it that way. I view it as God telling us the truth because he wants us to avoid eternal death and to live with Him forever.

What do you think of Jesus' statement that it would be better to enter His kingdom without an eye or a hand that caused us to sin than to hold on to sin and be thrown into the gehenna of fire?

Did God have a gun to Adam's head when He commanded him not to eat of the Tree of knowledge lest he die?

Is it holding a gun to our head to be told that unless we have Jesus as Lord of our lives, we will perish eternally?

Do you accept and believe the following statement:

"In mercy to the world, God blotted out its wicked inhabitants in Noah's time. In mercy He destroyed the corrupt dwellers in Sodom... it is so in our time. It is IN MERCY to the universe that GOD WILL FINALLY DESTROY THE REJECTERS OF HIS GRACE." GC 543

[skyblue888]

A beginning might be made almost anywhere in the Old Testament wherein are recorded numerous incidents where God appeared as an actor in the human arena. The starting point chosen will be the story of Pharaoh, king of Egypt.

The story is well known to Bible students. It has been told to us from our mother's knee. The mighty Pharaoh, in his day the greatest king in the world, stood defiantly athwart God's purpose to release His people from Egyptian bondage. But, when a certain point of time was reached, the Lord called Moses and sent him with a message to the king. He was commanded to set the people free with the warning that should he refuse, plague after plague would descend upon the hapless Egyptians.

The king did refuse. The plagues came until the king's power was broken and he was obliged to release the captives. In studying this event, the average person sees God as the Almighty One Whose power is

limitless. Backed by that power and the right to do so by virtue of His position as Creator and Ruler of the Universe, He rightly and justly orders Pharaoh to release the Israelites. But Pharaoh is defiant and is prepared to resist God's power. This, it is generally accepted, leaves God with no option but to obtain by force what the king will not surrender willingly. People generally do not question either God's justice or right in dealing with the monarch as they see Him doing.

The dreadful outpouring of destruction on Egypt and the king's steady resistance of this pressure until the very end, is seen by most as being a contest of power between God and the king. They see it as physical power versus physical power. They do not doubt that God will win for He has the greater power, and, in the end, after a protracted struggle, He does.

In viewing this as a contest between two great powers, people see the plagues as direct instruments wielded in the hand of God against the hapless Egyptians. They see the flies, the lice, the frogs, the hail, the murrain, the darkness, the boils, etc., as God's direct work. These things were sent upon the Egyptians, it is believed, because God decided that this was the way they should be humbled. Then, having decided it, the Lord specifically gathered these forces and directed them against His enemies.

Nor is this all. Because the Lord desired to really show the nations of the world that He was not One to be trifled with, He raised up a

Pharaoh who was unusually tough, defiant, powerful, and resilient. Such a king, because he would fight doggedly to the very end, provided God with the opportunity to manifest how great He was, whereas a weaker king would have given in before the Lord had the chance to demonstrate the full range of His judgmental powers.

The same situation exists in the world of human contest and combat. A world champion boxer will not enter the ring with a novice or amateur. The man whom he fights must also be of championship class so that the champion can demonstrate his skill, strength, and endurance. If his opponent was so inexperienced and weak as to go down with the first blow, then the champion would be deprived of the opportunity to display the full extent of his skill and power.

Let the reader pause here and carefully consider the picture of the Egyptian episode as presented above. Such a check will certify that this is the way in which most people view God's behaviour there. Furthermore, when the subject is brought up for further study, the average person will be surprised that it should, for he feels that the whole matter is settled, and no other verdict is possible.

That response is an instant revelation that he has simply accepted this view of God as being correct. To him that is unquestionably, just what the Scriptures say. There is no denying that when interpreted in the usually accepted way, that is what the

Scriptures can be understood to say. For instance, consider such verses as the following:

"And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet... Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land... And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay My hand upon Egypt, and bring forth Mine armies, and My people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments. And the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, when I stretch forth Mine hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them." Exodus 7:1-5.

"And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee My power; and that My name may be declared throughout all the earth." Exodus 9:16.

"For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew My power in thee, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth." Romans 9:17.

"The Lord would give the Egyptians an opportunity to see how vain was the wisdom of their mighty men, how feeble the power of their

gods, when opposed to the commands of Jehovah. He would punish the people of Egypt for their idolatry, and silence their boasting of the blessings received from their senseless deities. God would glorify His own name, that other nations might hear of His power and tremble at His mighty acts, and that His people might be led to turn from their idolatry and render Him pure worship." Patriarchs and Prophets, 263.

"Still the heart of Pharaoh grew harder. And now the Lord sent a message to him, declaring, 'I will at this time send all My plagues upon thine heart, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people; that thou mayest know that there is none like Me in all the earth. . . . And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to show in thee My power.' Not that God had given him an existence for this purpose; but His providence had overruled events to place him upon the throne at the very time appointed for Israel's deliverance. Though this haughty tyrant had by his crimes forfeited the mercy of God, yet his life had been preserved that through his stubbornness the Lord might manifest His wonders in the land of Egypt. The disposing of events is of God's providence. He could have placed upon the throne a more merciful king, who would not have dared to withstand the mighty manifestations of divine power. But in that case the Lord's purposes would not have been accomplished. His people were permitted to experience the grinding cruelty of the

Egyptians, that they might not be deceived concerning the debasing influence of idolatry. In His dealing with Pharaoh, the Lord manifested His hatred of idolatry, and His determination to punish cruelty and oppression." ibid., 267, 268.

These are the references and statements to which people point as support for their view that God wielded the powers of force in His own almighty hands to compel Pharaoh to release the Israelites. To human minds trained for so long to think of God as doing things man's way, the Scriptures provide weighty support to such arguments and views. The deeper and correct message of these writings totally escapes those whose interpretations of God's Word are guided by this concept. It is hoped that what follows will correct such sad misconceptions of our Wonderful Father.

That which should alert every mind to the erroneous nature of such conclusions, is the extremely bad light into which God is placed by them. Such teachings, no matter how well meaning the teacher may be, nor how deeply sincere his professions of love for God, are declaring that the ways of God and of criminal organizations are identical.

to be continued

[Guest]

Hey sky, don't you think this is hijacking the thread? This doesn't help the conversation, and nobody's going to read it. If you don't have anything to say, just don't say anything. Don't post a book in the middle of a conversation.

[skyblue888]

Note the following comparison.

The agents of a large criminal organization come to a certain business man from whom they wish to obtain regular payments. The services they offer are "protection." The businessman courageously refuses to make these "contributions" whereupon the syndicate resorts to a tried and proven method of obtaining their objective. They possess powers of force in the form of destructive weapons. These they now wield, though they do not, at first, go all the way. They begin by smashing his plate glass store windows and emptying the displays into the gutter.

This first blow is relatively mild, but as the owner continues to refuse, they hit him harder and harder until he is literally pounded into submission. No decent citizen, no Christian, can approve of these tactics. All would fear to be subjected to them, yet, oddly enough, they accept it as perfectly right and just in God, for that is exactly how they regard His behaviour in Egypt.

Here is how the Almighty is understood to have solved the Egyptian problem. God desired the release of His people. He came to Pharaoh and demanded this, but the courageous king refused to obey. In God's hands were mighty weapons of destruction and with these, He struck the Egyptian monarch a deadly blow. He did not unleash all He could have, so as to give opportunity for compliance with His demands.

When this was not forthcoming, God struck Egypt again and again until king and people were pounded into submission. Thus the nation did under compulsion what it would not do any other way.

Anyone who candidly thinks about the standard view of the Egyptian plagues will recognize that this is a correct analysis of how God is seen as behaving. Immediately, it is evident that this places God in the same class as the crime syndicate. It means that the methods used by the world's leading criminals to secure their ends are those used by God. Once this realization comes, the question of how we shall relate to it arises. There should be a great awakening to the need of obtaining a reversed and corrected view of God's activities in Egypt.

But this is seldom so. Marvellous are the powers of the human mind to rationalize. As a sample of this I cite a conversation held with a highly educated person who mentioned that God does personally raise His righteous hand in which are held weapons of destruction, to destroy the disobedient. Specifically, the conversation turned to ancient Egypt.

He agreed that his view of the situation was that God desired and demanded of Pharaoh the release of His people. The king refused.

God then struck a first blow to show that He was not speaking idly.

The king was not intimidated. Therefore God struck blow after blow until Egypt was pounded into submission. That is, God achieved His purpose by the direct use of force when all else had failed.

My friend immediately saw, with great clarity, that criminal organizations use the same methods. They desire and demand.

The person involved refuses. They strike the first blow to demonstrate that they mean their threats. The subject continues to resist. Therefore, they hit him again and again until he is forced to concede. That is, they achieve by force that which they otherwise could never gain.

I was most encouraged to see how clearly this man recognized the nature of his beliefs about God and that he could see that the syndicate operated in the same way as he understood God did. I naturally expected him to admit that he had never quite realized this before and that he was startled to see the real implications of his belief.

Instead, I was given a demonstration of the power of the human mind to rationalize. Unhesitatingly he said, "Of course God uses the same methods as criminals. What makes the difference is God's intention. He does it with a good intention for the benefit of others. The criminal does it all for self."

"In that case," I replied, "you are saying that the end justifies the means used!" He stoutly denied this, though the fact was inescapable that his argument was exactly that. Here it is in simple terms.

The means used by the criminal were unjustified because the end was selfish. The same means used by God were justified because the end was unselfish. Once this line of reasoning has become established, any crime can be justified. During the Dark Ages millions of fine people were martyred on the basis of this rationale.

The end can never justify the means. Let every true child of God forever reject such a philosophy. There is no place for it in the ways, character, and government of God's church. God has never worked like this and never will.

All His ways are ways of righteousness and peace. Any belief that God and the criminal use the same methods must be forever denied by the testimony of God Himself, when He said, "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, saith the Lord." Isaiah 55:8.

Do we believe God? Shall we hold to a plain, "Thus saith the Lord"? Assuredly! Then we must deny the long-held traditional view of God's behaviour in Egypt because it makes God's ways to be the ways of wicked men.

There is no issue in regard to God's intentions versus the intentions of criminals. With few exceptions, every person would admit that God intends only good, while the motivation of wicked men is purely selfish and cruel. The methods of God and of men are different. It aims to develop the unshakable conviction that God's words in Isaiah 55:8,9, mean exactly what they say. It will demonstrate that the methods used by God when dealing with those who oppose Him are not different from man's ways in only some respects: they are totally different. No resemblance between them can be found.

God is not a God of force. This is a weapon He never uses.

"God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power." The Desire of Ages, 759.

"The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority." ibid., 22.

"Earthly kingdoms rule by the ascendency of physical power; but from Christ's kingdom every carnal weapon, every instrument of coercion, is banished." The Acts of the Apostles, 12.

The message of these statements is clear. The use of compelling power is found only under Satan's government. Herein lies at least one great distinction between the way of God and the ways of Satan and men. The only course they know by which to build their kingdoms and achieve their ends is by employing force. If God builds His kingdom by using compelling power, as so many believe, then His and man's ways are the same. But they are not. Man rules by compulsion. God does not employ this means at all. Therefore, the standard view of what God did in Egypt is a false one, needing to be replaced by another.

While it is sound Scriptural truth that God did not use force to obtain the release of the Israelites, or other objectives at any time in history, it cannot be concluded that He was neither present nor active in the Egyptian situation. He certainly was there, working with great intensity and purpose, but along very different lines from those generally supposed.

An entirely new and correct understanding is now needed of the role played by God that will harmonize with the following principles:

God must be seen as doing only that which Christ lived and taught.

He must not be seen relating to this problem as sinful man would relate to it, e.g., by using force to solve it.

Everything done must be in righteousness. As the law is the definition and limitation of righteousness, and, as God's character is the transcript of the law, then all that God did must be within those principles. As the law says "Thou shalt not kill," then God did not destroy or kill in the land of Egypt.

Any teaching or view which sees God as operating other than within these limits is erroneous, and must be rejected as such. It is not the teaching of Christ and is therefore of the devil.

The evidences argued here call for a re-study of the Egyptian incident. The long-closed case must be re-opened and a new verdict obtained—one which will indeed reveal God as He is—

The Lord our righteousness.

to be continued

[teresaq]

if God uses controlling behavior to shut people up who disagree with Him, why are there so many people, 6,000,000,000, and so much pain and suffering of all kinds?

[John317]

There's no gun there. He is offering you a way out, but you don't have to take it.

That's exactly it. God offers the antidote to the poison of sin, but if people refuse it they will die.

My good friend Graham Maxwell, whom I love and respect-- and from whom I learned so much over a period of about 15 years in his wonderful Sabbath School classes-- compares God's destroying the wicked to a doctor murdering his patient because he doesn't obey the doctor's order to take the antidote. It may sound at first like a good illustration, and I thought for a long time that it was a good example of why God couldn't destroy the wicked at the end of time.

But Maxwell is wrong about this aspect. Yes, he is right to compare God to a doctor, to compare the gospel of Christ to the antidote, and sin as the poison that will kill us if we don't take the antidote; but Marxwell is wrong to compare God to the doctor who murders his patient for not taking the antidote.

Why is Dr. Maxwell wrong on this point?

Because God is not MERELY a doctor. God is also the Judge, to use another biblical metaphor. He is holy and righteous and just. Sin and justice require punishment, not simply death. If all sin requires was death, and justice and God's righteous law did not require punishment for the works done in the body, then it would be possible for God simply to allow the wicked, including Satan, to fall down dead, painlessly and instantaneously. But this is not the way the Bible represents the destiny of the wicked, and for good reason. God's law is that whatsoever a man sows, that he shall also reap. Another way to express this law is that "God will reward everyone according to what he has done in the body." Jesus says He is coming to do just that. This prohibits God from giving everyone the same punishment and the same reward. To do so would not be fair. For instance, the law and justice of God is only satisfied after Satan has paid the full penalty for causing all the sin in the universe, which led to the suffering and death of uncounted billions of God's creatures. (See EW 290-291; 52-53, for Ellen White's view of how Jesus together with the saints during the 1000 years "mete out to the wicked the portion which they MUST suffer, according to their works.")

Another factor that needs to be considered is the fact that God must take into account the impact of sin on the entire universe, not simply its effects on the earth. The government of God, or the peace and safety of the universe, is much more important than any one single individual. Therefore God must consider the question of how to place the universe on an eternally secure basis.

Obviously the doctor does not need to consider these various aspects, and therefore, it is unrealistic and incorrect to compare God to a doctor in terms of the death of his patient. Every illustration, if pushed too far, leads to wrong concepts and conclusions. So it is in this case.

[Lutz13]

He doesn't have a gun to your head. I don't view it that way. I view it as God telling us the truth because he wants us to avoid eternal death and to live with Him forever.

[Guest]

if God uses controlling behavior to shut people up who disagree with Him, why are there so many people, 6,000,000,000, and so much pain and suffering of all kinds?

Bless your heart, you just keep right on posting. And if anyone says it needs to make sense, you tell em to come see me.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: John317

He doesn't have a gun to your head. I don't view it that way. I view it as God telling us the truth because he wants us to avoid eternal death and to live with Him forever.

I do agree with this statement. I was just trying to display the concept that people have about God.

When God told Adam not to eat of the tree or he will die. Many people actually think God is the one who would have executed him.

It seems they go further to say that God gave Adam a bit of grace to change his ways. If he didn't change his ways, then God would pull the trigger.

God was simply saying that by eating that fruit Adam would become separated from the source of Life. His actions would inevitably end in death. Sin has the seed of destruction.

Originally Posted By: John317

What do you think of Jesus' statement that it would be better to enter His kingdom without an eye or a hand that caused us to sin than to hold on to sin and be thrown into the gehenna of fire?

Jesus is saying that we should probably give up the things that cause us to sin. No matter the cost. Jesus used many parables and there is a meaning to them all.

One that Jesus gave was that unless we forgive God will basically lock us up and torture us until we pay our debts. The meaning of that was simply, if we hold resentment and are unable to forgive. We will be forever a slave to sin and it will torture us inside. God wouldn't be the torturer, we torture ourselves.

Much like when He said to not fear those who can kill the body, but fear Him who can kill the soul and body in hell. Then He goes on to say that God cares for even the sparrows that fall to earth. So we shouldn't even be afraid of God!

You will never understand these if you're a surface reader.

Originally Posted By: John317

Did God have a gun to Adam's head when He commanded him not to eat of the Tree of knowledge lest he die?

No He did not. However traditional view shows Him holding a gun to Adams head.

Originally Posted By: John317

Is it holding a gun to our head to be told that unless we have Jesus as Lord of our lives, we will perish eternally?

It is if the executor is God. However if we execute ourselves, we hold the gun to our own head by playing with sin.

Originally Posted By: John317

"In mercy to the world, God blotted out its wicked inhabitants in Noah's time. In mercy He destroyed the corrupt dwellers in Sodom... it is so in our time. It is IN MERCY to the universe that GOD WILL FINALLY DESTROY THE REJECTERS OF HIS GRACE." GC 543

Ellen G. White is not the hierarchy of truth. Truth advances on and on and it kept going even after her death. This doesn't mean I do not have respect for what she wrote.

When Mrs. White says that "God will finally destroy the rejecters of His grace," it does not mean that this judgment will come directly out from God upon them any more than it did when it says that "God slew Saul" or that "God sends them strong delusion."

We all agree that God does not directly send strong delusion to anyone or directly kill people. It is the same when we read that God will finally destroy the rejecters of His mercy.

sky

[Lutz13]

When Mrs. White says that "God will finally destroy the rejecters of His grace," it does not mean that this judgment will come directly out from God upon them any more than it did when it says that "God slew Saul" or that "God sends them strong delusion."

We all agree that God does not directly send strong delusion to anyone or directly kill people. It is the same when we read that God will finally destroy the rejecters of His mercy.

sky

I agree.

[Guest]

When Mrs. White says that "God will finally destroy the rejecters of His grace," it does not mean that this judgment will come directly out from God

So in other words what you're saying is, "When Mrs. White says that: "God will finally destroy the rejecters of His grace" She actually means something entirely different from what she said.

Are you sure she approved of that method of study? I mean if you have to take what she says and turn upside down before you can see what really meant to say, ...I don't know.