"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[oldsailor29]

John317 - I have not seen such perversion of scripture as this, which I quoted below. If this is an example of how Robert reads the Bible, then I wonder how many others are thusly afflicted. I have always taken for granted, my ability to clearly understand first, second, and third person in languages, but maybe that is a gift which is not as common as I thought.

A case can be made that God sent the spirit to lie to the false prophets, and is therefore responsible for the lie, but to say that God was the spirit is a gross misunderstanding. I sometimes use this verse to prove that not all lies are bad. Well, it was bad for Ahab, but not for the other people in the story. Bearing false witness against a neighbor is a sin, all other lies are not. King Ahab was certainly no neighbor (good Samaritan) to anyone.

However, the war in heaven is a war of ideas, not a physical war in any sense, except that the Lord caused the rebellious beings to want to leave. It was all mental, and they are still mentally deranged, and will be until the Lord heals them.

Quote:

ROBERT: "I [God] will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets," [1 Kings 22:22]

Are you sure you are reading 1 Kings 22: 22 correctly? What translation are you reading anyway? I don't have a single translation that reads the way you quoted it. You quote it as if it is God who says, "I will go out and be a lying spirit." That is a fabrication of the first order.

[Guest]

He's gonna heal em alright.

[skyblue888]

Someone made the claim that there is no such thing as Review and Herald, Vol.4, p.335. I have this volume 4 on my lap right now on page 335 and the statement I gave is on that page and the context is exactly what I said it was, the destrution of the wicked. How God bears long with the rebellion and apostasy of His subjects. At the bottom of the second column we read, "Men have reached a point in insolence and disobedience which shows that their cup of iniquity is almost full. Many have well-nigh passed the boundary of mercy. Soon God will show that He is indeed the living God. He will say to the angels, 'No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upont the children of disobedience; for the cup of iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work."

sky

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: John317

Seriously, are you telling me you never read a Bible commentary? Never read SDA BC 7A, comments by Ellen White? How about Luther's commentary on Romans or on Galatians? Never read John Wesley, either, uh? oh wow, you're missing something wonderful.

NO, I'm telling you that commentaries are just that...an opinion. They are not a source of authority. We must understand the Bible for ourselves....

yes, i agree with you, robert.

while there may be much good in those sources we do have to watch out that we are not picking up error with the good. we also need to take these admonitions into account:

But beware of rejecting that which is truth. The great danger with our people has been that of depending upon men and making flesh their arm. Those who have not been in the habit of searching the Bible for themselves, or weighing evidence, have confidence in the leading men and accept the decisions they make; and thus many will reject the very messages God sends to His people, if these leading brethren do not accept them. {TM 106.4}

Though the finite minds of men are inadequate to enter into the counsels of the Infinite One, or to fully understand the working out of his purposes, yet often it is because of some error or neglect on their own part, that they so dimly comprehend the messages of Heaven. Not infrequently the minds of the people—and even of God's servants—are blinded by human opinions, the traditions and false teaching of men, so that they are able only partially to grasp the great things which he has revealed in his Word. {GC88 344.4}

Satan is constantly endeavoring to attract attention to man in the place of God. He leads the people to look to bishops, to pastors, to professors of theology, as their guides, instead of searching the Scriptures to learn their duty for themselves. Then, by controlling the minds of these leaders, he can influence the multitudes according to his will. {GC 595.2}

far too many of us sdas are just as guilty at looking to man, as any "catholic" is.

[John317]

sky, could you show the paragraphs immediately before and after the paragraph you posted from RH, vol. 4, page 335?

I am reading p. 200 in the first volume of the Spirit of Prophecy where Ellen White says that it was "the angel of God" that slayed the first-born of the Egyptians.

"A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the peoplpe, one angel caused the terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere." GC 614.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

There seems to be a war brewing in this thread... might it possibly be akin to the war that took place in heaven?

Exaclty. A war of ideas again.

Great point.

seems to me to be more an issue of literal versus spiritual. i think once that "clicks"....

[John317]

But beware of rejecting that which is truth. The great danger with our people has been that of depending upon men and making flesh their arm. Those who have not been in the habit of searching the Bible for themselves, or weighing evidence, have confidence in the leading men and accept the decisions they make; and thus many will reject the very messages God sends to His people, if these leading brethren do not accept them. {TM 106.4}

Though the finite minds of men are inadequate to enter into the counsels of the Infinite One, or to fully understand the working out of his purposes, yet often it is because of some error or neglect on their own part, that they so dimly comprehend the messages of Heaven. Not infrequently the minds of the people—and even of God's servants—are blinded by human opinions, the traditions and false teaching of men, so that they are able only partially to grasp the great things which he has revealed in his Word. {GC88 344.4}

Satan is constantly endeavoring to attract attention to man in the place of God. He leads the people to look to bishops, to pastors, to professors of theology, as their guides, instead of searching the Scriptures to learn their duty for themselves. Then, by controlling the minds of these leaders, he can influence the multitudes according to his will. {GC 595.2}

Good quotes.

Now this:

"Then the wicked saw what they had lost; and fire was breathed from God upon them and consumed them. This was the exectuion of the judgment. The wicked then received according as the saints, in unison with Jesus, had meted out to them during the one thousand years. The same fire from God that consumed the wicked purified the whole earth. The broken, ragged moutains melted with fervent heat, the atmosphere also, and all the stubble was consumed." EW 54.

"God executes justice upon the wicked, for the good of the universe, and even for the good of those upon whom His judgments are visited." GC 541.

"In mercy to the world, God blotted out its wicked inhabitants in Noah's time. In mercy He destroyed the corrupt dwellers in Sodom... it is so in our time. It is in mercy to the universe that God will finally destroy the rejecters of His grace." GC 543.

[John317]

Quote:

John3:17: Seriously, are you telling me you never read a Bible commentary? Never read SDA BC 7A, comments by Ellen White? How about Luther's commentary on Romans or on Galatians? Never read John Wesley, either, uh? oh wow, you're missing something wonderful.

Quote:

ROBERT: NO, I'm telling you that commentaries are just that...an opinion. They are not a source of authority. We must understand the Bible for ourselves....

Quote:

teresaq:17(sda): yes, i agree with you, robert.

Yes, I agree with Robert, too, on this point, that commentaries are opinions, but they are also a good source of biblical facts regarding history, geography, theology,etc. They are like having an exchange with with a good Bible teacher. Their opinions are a bit more reliable than the average man you meet in the street or on the Forum.

It needs to be remembered, though, that books by people such as Jack Sequeira are also commentaries on the Bible.

I don't know of any good Bible student or scholar who thinks that something must be true simply because a commentator wrote it. However, Robert's misunderstanding of 1 Kings 22: 22-- making God say, "I will go and be a lying spirit" -- is an illustration of the advantages of consulting a good commentary on occassion.

People do indeed need to be careful that they don't rely on other people to do their study for them, but that applies to ALL humans, including pastors and writers of all sorts of books, and not simply Bible commentaries. All of these have their proper place, but that place is not a substitute for hard, individual study of the Bible under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

[skyblue888]

sky, could you show the paragraphs immediately before and after the paragraph you posted from RH, vol. 4, page 335?

I am reading p. 200 in the first volume of the Spirit of Prophecy where Ellen White says that it was "the angel of God" that slayed the first-born of the Egyptians.

___________________________________________________________________

"A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the peoplpe, one angel caused the terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere." GC 614.

Why John, don't you have access to that Review and Herald volume?

"God bears long with the rebellion and apostasy of His subjects. Even when His mercy is despised and His love scorned and derided, He bears with man until the last resource for leading them to repentance is exhausted. But there are limits to His forbearance. From those who to the end continue in obstinate rebellion, He removes His protecting care. Providence will no longer shield them from Satan's power. They will have sinned away their day of grace. God keeps a reckoning with the nations. Not a sparrow falls to the ground without His notice. Those who work evil toward their fellow men, saying, How doth God know? will one day be called to meet the long-deferred vengeance. In this age a more than common contempt is shown to God. Men have reached a point in insolence and disobedience which shows that their cup of iniquity is almost full. Many have well-nigh passed the boundary of mercy. Soon God will show that He is indeed the living God. He will say to the angels, 'No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out His malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work.

This time is right upon us. The Spirit of God is being withdrawn from the earth. When the angel of mercy folds her wings and departs, Satan will do the evil deeds he has long wished to do. Storm and tempest, war and bloodshed,--in these things he delights, and thus he gathers in his harvest." 4 RH 335.

You can read the whole article if you wish. I don't think there was any need to give more context to words I had quoted. The point was that the angels of God do God's bidding when they are given the command to no longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. As you can see for yourself, both the preceding paragraph and the paragraph immediately following what I had quoted show that it is Satan who is the destroyer.

Three times at least in the book Patriarchs and Prophets, 278-280, the one who slew the first-born of Egypt is named. Here are the sentences. "All who failed to heed the Lord's directions would lose their first-born by the hand of the destroyer." "The sign of blood--the sign of the Saviour's protection--was on their doors, and the destroyer entered not." "All the first-born in the land, 'from the first-born of the captive that was in the dungeon, and all the first-born of cattle,' had been smitten by the destroyer."

Who is the destroyer? "Satan is the destroyer." Testimonies, Vol.6, p.388,389.

The angels of God were given the command to no longer protect the first-born. That is how they are said to be doing the work of destruction just as when the Bible says that "God slew Saul," we know that God did not personally or directly kill him.

sky

[teresaq]

in doing a search on doorpost, lintel, and relevant words, over and over these types of statements come up:

Quote:

The directions that Moses gave concerning the Passover feast are full of significance, and have an application to parents and children in this age of the world. . . . {AH 324.2}

The father was to act as the priest of the household, and if the father was dead, the eldest son living was to perform this solemn act of sprinkling the doorpost with blood. This is a symbol of the work to be done in every family. Parents are to gather their children into the home and to present Christ before them as their Passover. The father is to dedicate every inmate of his home to God and to do a work that is represented by the feast of the Passover. It is perilous to leave this solemn duty in the hands of others. {AH 324.3}

Let Christian parents resolve that they will be loyal to God, and let them gather their children into their homes

with them and strike the doorpost with blood, representing Christ as the only One who can shield and save, that the destroying angel may pass over the cherished circle of the household. Let the world see that a more than human influence is at work in the home. Let parents maintain a vital connection with God, set themselves on Christ's side, and show by His grace what great good may be accomplished through parental agency. {AH 324.4}

perhaps if those statements are collected and studied....

[teresaq]

Someone made the claim that there is no such thing as Review and Herald, Vol.4, p.335. I have this volume 4 on my lap right now on page 335 and the statement I gave is on that page and the context is exactly what I said it was, the destrution of the wicked. How God bears long with the rebellion and apostasy of His subjects. At the bottom of the second column we read, "Men have reached a point in insolence and disobedience which shows that their cup of iniquity is almost full. Many have well-nigh passed the boundary of mercy. Soon God will show that He is indeed the living God. He will say to the angels, 'No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upont the children of disobedience; for the cup of iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work."

sky

what i think they dont understand is that that was how the review and herald were numbered. they started with such and such year, no. such and such, etc..

they didnt number each issue 1-8, then 1-16....issue 1 went out numbered 1-8, then the next issue of 8 pages was numbered 9-16, etc. that is how there are "335" pages.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Someone made the claim that there is no such thing as Review and Herald, Vol.4, p.335. I have this volume 4 on my lap right now on page 335 and the statement I gave is on that page and the context is exactly what I said it was, the destrution of the wicked. How God bears long with the rebellion and apostasy of His subjects. At the bottom of the second column we read, "Men have reached a point in insolence and disobedience which shows that their cup of iniquity is almost full. Many have well-nigh passed the boundary of mercy. Soon God will show that He is indeed the living God. He will say to the angels, 'No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upont the children of disobedience; for the cup of iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work."

sky

what i think they dont understand is that that was how the review and herald were numbered. they started with such and such year, no. such and such, etc..

they didnt number each issue 1-8, then 1-16....issue 1 went out numbered 1-8, then the next issue of 8 pages was numbered 9-16, etc. that is how there are "335" pages.

Vol.4 has 590 pages. You can search by the date also. On page 335 it is written, Battle Creek, Tuesday, September 17,1901.

sky

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

It is in mercy to the universe that God will finally destroy the rejecters of His grace.(GC 543)

Just a bit earlier she wrote:

Quote:

A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God.(GC 542)

Here she speaks of how the glory of God (the glory of God is His character) would be consuming fire to the wicked, were they to be taken to heaven. It is said that heaven would be torture to them.

If God wanted to torture the wicked to make them suffer, why would He do something arbitrary like setting them on fire, when He could simply have them continue to live in His presence?

I mean, how does this make any sense whatsoever? Being is God's presence is a consuming fire to them, but God says, "No, this isn't good enough! They must suffer the torture of a *literal* fire."

The clues are all right here. I really don't understand why one would think that God would substitute an arbitrarily imposed torture for the torture that sin actually brings of itself upon its victims. What could possibly be the purpose for such an action?

[John317]

Quote:

JOHN3:17: Now we know from the SOP that the war in heaven occurred AFTER God decreed that Satan must be banished from heaven.

Quote:

pnattmbtc: It would be more accurate to say it continued. The war in heaven had been going on for awhile. It started when Satan began his rebellion.

But this fails to give any significance to the fact that Ellen White distinguishes between what happened BEFORE the war and what happened both DURING and AFTER the war.

It's true that Satan had begun to rebel before the war, but the questions and the doubts were not one and the same as the WAR.

If Ellen White intended to say that what happened on pp. 18 to 22 of vol. 1 of the Spirit of Propehcy was war, why does she say on page 23, "THEN there was war in heaven"?

It doesn't make sense to mean that there was war on pages 18-20, only to say on page 23 that "THEN there was war in heaven." Something happened to cause there to be "war" at that point rather than before. What was it? They engaged in conflict in a way that they didn't before that point in the controversy. I think it's a mistake to ignore this distinction.

For instance, there were tensions and problems between the US and Japan before Dec. 7, 1941, but we don't say there was war before the war, or the fighting, started.

Notice that Ellen White uses language in regard to the "war" that she does not use in describing what happened before the war. She says, "Then there was war in heaven. The Son of God, the Prince of Heaven, and his loyal angels, ENGAGED IN CONFLICT with the arch rebel and those who united with him."

Can you show any statement by Ellen White where she refers to the events before Satan's banishment as "war"?

[Robert]

Is this supposed to be one of your [the Bible's] universal priciples?

[Robert]

NKJV: 21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, 'I will persuade him.' 22 The Lord said to him, 'In what way?' So he said, 'I [the spirit] will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' And the Lord said, 'You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.' 23 Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you."

[Robert]

NKJV: 21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, 'I will persuade him.' 22 The Lord said to him, 'In what way?' So he said, 'I [the spirit] will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' And the Lord said, 'You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.' 23 Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you."

2 Thess 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders [deception], 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth [the gospel], that they might be saved.

11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Here's how my opponents would read verse 11:

What does it say? "God will send them strong delusion"! Who? Not Satan, not the man of sin, but God....God does it...He deceives them.

[skyblue888]

Thats a good point. :)

[John317]

Quote:

JOHN3:17: could you show the paragraphs immediately before and after the paragraph you posted from RH, vol. 4, page 335?

Quote:

Why John, don't you have access to that Review and Herald volume?

No, I don't have it at home, and I'm unable to leave home at present to go to White Estate in Loma Linda.

Thanks for posting it.

I think it's obvious these words are not describing the final destruction of the wicked but rather the events around the time of the end of probation and those that lead up to the Second Coming of Christ.

What shows this?

The sentences, phrases and words in this section which show that it's referring to events leading up the Second coming of Christ, and not to the events that take place at the final destruction, are given in red. These same points are listed at the end of the post.

Here's the quote from Ellen White:

"God bears long with the rebellion and apostasy of His subjects. Even when His mercy is despised and His love scorned and derided, He bears with man until the last resource for leading them to repentance is exhausted. But there are limits to His forbearance.From those who to the end continue in obstinate rebellion, He removes His protecting care. Providence will no longer shield them from Satan's power. They will have sinned away their day of grace. God keeps a reckoning with the nations. Not a sparrow falls to the ground without His notice. Those who work evil toward their fellow men, saying, How doth God know? will one day be called to meet the long-deferred vengeance. In this age a more than common contempt is shown to God.

Men have reached a point in insolence and disobedience which shows that their cup of iniquity is almost full. Many have well-nigh passed the boundary of mercy. Soon God will show that He is indeed the living God. He will say to the angels, 'No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out His malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work.

This time is right upon us. The Spirit of God is being withdrawn from the earth. When the angel of mercy folds her wings and departs, Satan will do the evil deeds he has long wished to do. Storm and tempest, war and bloodshed,--in these things he delights, and thus he gathers in his harvest." 4 RH 335. Notice the following:

1) It's speaking of the time when the last resource for leading them to repetence is exhausted.

2)When God removes protective care.

3)When Providence no longer shields.

4) When the wicked have sinned away their day of grace.

5) When their cup of iniquity is full.

6) When God will no longer interfere.

7) This time was right upon SDAs at the time of writing.

8) When the angel of mercy folds wings and departs.

9) When Satan gathers in his harvest.

I submit that all of the above point unquestionably to the time that occurs right before the second coming of Christ and NOT at the final destruction of the wicked at the end of time. None of the above occur for the first time after the Great White Throne Judgment. It is when the angels no longer hold the winds of strife but allow Satan to work his will upon the world, except for the righteous. Anyone who's well acquainted with the sequence of events in Bible prophecy will recongize that these things are fulfilled just before probation ends and at the falling of the Seven Last Plagues. For instance, the wicked have sinned away their day of grace long before their final destruction, and the same can be said of all nine points.

[skyblue888]

There can be no mistaking the kind of Heavenly Father introduced to us by the Saviour in every act and word of His ministry. It is the picture of a God filled with love and compassion, Whose mercy endures forever, Who does not condemn or destroy but seeks only and ever to save. As a king, He is different from any earthly king. As a judge, there is no other like Him. No earthly ruler or empire provides us with an illustration of this great and wonderful God.

But this is not how we have viewed Him in the Old Testament. There we have seen Him as a stern God Who has maintained His authority by superiority of power and knowledge. Having seen Him in this light, it has been natural to conclude that when the plagues fell upon Egypt, the fire upon the Sodomites, the flood upon the world in Noah's time, and every other such incident, God was demonstrating that He was not to be ignored, trifled with, or disobeyed. We looked upon God as personally upholding His position and authority.

The utter destruction of the many or the few as the case may be, we have regarded as a just act on God's part to terrify the remainder into obedience and thus into personal favour with God. Anyone who stops to think about it will quickly see that, unless he has been converted from it, this is the concept which he has held.

But it is not the view of God which Jesus held.

Nor is it the picture of God which Christ presented.

It was an altogether different God of Whom Jesus came to speak.

What then? Are we to hold two differing views of God, one as presented in the Old Testament and the other as proclaimed by Christ?

God forbids that. He sent His Son with the commission to reveal Him as He is and thus to sweep away the sad misconceptions developed prior to the appearance of Christ. Therefore, we cannot hold two conflicting views of God, justified by categorizing each different view as meet for different situations. God is the same yesterday, today and forever. He never changes. Sin has not and cannot change Him. It could not change Him unless it should become part of Him. That it has never done and never will do.

Lucifer, angels, and men never destroyed until sin entered. Sin changed them. Then, they became destroyers. When the religion of Christ truly takes hold of a man, he ceases to be a destroyer. It is as simple as that.God has never sinned, therefore He has never destroyed.

If we cannot hold any other view of God than that presented by Christ, how are we to understand God's actions in the Old Testament? The majority will object that the pictures in the Old Testament are so clear that it would be impossible to view God in any other than the traditional light.

This is exactly where the mistake has been made. There is more than one way of looking at God's actions in the Old Testament. Viewed through the coloured lens of human preconceptions, it seems that there is only one way—the obvious way. But this is not so. Furthermore, when the implications of the standard view of God as held in the past are considered, then God is characterized in the worst possible light. The time has come therefore, to reconsider God's ways in the Old Testament. His actions are to be studied in the light which streams from the cross of Calvary and which flowed from the life and lips of Christ.

to be continued

[Lutz13]

Just curious. How could it be a real war in heaven when God would just have to think and Satan and his followers would disappear forever?

Do you think they were up there fighting with light sabers and God just stood there and played with them?

[Guest]

Hey Lutz!!!

Check your messages.

[skyblue888]

Quote:

JOHN3:17: could you show the paragraphs immediately before and after the paragraph you posted from RH, vol. 4, page 335?

Quote:

Why John, don't you have access to that Review and Herald volume?

No, I don't have it at home, and I'm unable to leave home at present to go to White Estate in Loma Linda.

Thanks for posting it.

I think it's obvious these words are not describing the final destruction of the wicked but rather the events around the time of the end of probation and those that lead up to the Second Coming of Christ.

What shows this?

The sentences, phrases and words in this section which show that it's referring to events leading up the Second coming of Christ, and not to the events that take place at the final destruction, are given in red. These same points are listed at the end of the post.

Here's the quote from Ellen White:

"God bears long with the rebellion and apostasy of His subjects. Even when His mercy is despised and His love scorned and derided, He bears with man until the last resource for leading them to repentance is exhausted. But there are limits to His forbearance.From those who to the end continue in obstinate rebellion, He removes His protecting care. Providence will no longer shield them from Satan's power. They will have sinned away their day of grace. God keeps a reckoning with the nations. Not a sparrow falls to the ground without His notice. Those who work evil toward their fellow men, saying, How doth God know? will one day be called to meet the long-deferred vengeance. In this age a more than common contempt is shown to God.

Men have reached a point in insolence and disobedience which shows that their cup of iniquity is almost full. Many have well-nigh passed the boundary of mercy. Soon God will show that He is indeed the living God. He will say to the angels, 'No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out His malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work.

This time is right upon us. The Spirit of God is being withdrawn from the earth. When the angel of mercy folds her wings and departs, Satan will do the evil deeds he has long wished to do. Storm and tempest, war and bloodshed,--in these things he delights, and thus he gathers in his harvest." 4 RH 335. Notice the following:

1) It's speaking of the time when the last resource for leading them to repetence is exhausted.

2)When God removes protective care.

3)When Providence no longer shields.

4) When the wicked have sinned away their day of grace.

5) When their cup of iniquity is full.

6) When God will no longer interfere.

7) This time was right upon SDAs at the time of writing.

8) When the angel of mercy folds wings and departs.

9) When Satan gathers in his harvest.

I submit that all of the above point unquestionably to the time that occurs right before the second coming of Christ and NOT at the final destruction of the wicked at the end of time. None of the above occur for the first time after the Great White Throne Judgment. It is when the angels no longer hold the winds of strife but allow Satan to work his will upon the world, except for the righteous. Anyone who's well acquainted with the sequence of events in Bible prophecy will recongize that these things are fulfilled just before probation ends and at the falling of the Seven Last Plagues. For instance, the wicked have sinned away their day of grace long before their final destruction, and the same can be said of all nine points.

John, so your point is that in the day of final reckoning God will personally and directly punish and destroy the impenitent, something He never did before? is that it?

sky

[Robert]

Thats a good point.

Yes, it is... teehe

I mean that would be John's argument! He would say, What does it say? "God will send them strong delusion"! Who? Not Satan, not the man of sin, but God....God does it...He deceives them. Do you believe the Bible? I do....

[John317]

2 Thess 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders [deception], 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth [the gospel], that they might be saved.

11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Here's how my opponents would read verse 11:

What does it say? "God will send them strong delusion"! Who? Not Satan, not the man of sin, but God....God does it...He deceives them.

Who believes this? This is a straw-man argument. I don't know of any Seventh-day Adventists who say that the verse means God deceives the lost.

I would like to know if you can tell of anyone or of any quote signifying that they believe God deceives the wicked?

Please notice this good quote on 2 Thess. 2: 9, from Jamieson, Fausset & Brown's Commentary:

"God judicially sends hardness of heart on those who have rejected the the truth, and gives them up in righteous judgment to Satan's delusions (Is. 6: 9, 10; Rom. 1: 24-26, 28). They first cast off the love of the truth, then God gives them up to Satan's delusions, then they settle down into "believing the lie": an awful climax (1 Kings 22: 22, 23; Ezekiel 14: 9; Job 12: 16; Matt. 24: 5, 11; 1 Tim 4: 1)."

That is exactly what happens.