"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[Robert]

It's not a sin for God to kill.

Then it's not sin for God to lie...or use deception...or cause a person to be born blind....etc.

[Robert]

As Ellen White says, "God drowned the vast world." 12 MR 207-209; 10 MR 265

And Paul said, "God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie"....Ellen says, "God drowned...."

Take it as it reads John! Don't make it complicated. Don't you agree?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Lutz13

LOL! Thanks Richard. I laughed pretty loud...haha...Those all yours?

Yep

He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword....Now it is guns....

[Robert]

Between those and Mr. Murphy, I feel sorry for the poor thief in the night.

I feel sorry for you when the thief sneaks up on you while you are asleep and caps your butt....You aren't invincible. All these weapons show you are insecure.....Let God take care of you, dude, and don't trust in your own strength.

[Robert]

While it's true she didn't have all truth-- which, of course, no one has ever had, anyway-- she didn't write any messages for God which contained false doctrines.

In other words she never had error....She was infallible!...

Bull!

Rob

[pnattmbtc]

God also meets us where we are. Just like the Israelites were absorbed into Egyptian culture. They wanted a mean tough God, and God provided to that on Mt. Sinai since that is what they wanted. Shows how far God goes to gain our trust! That shows Love to me...

[Robert]

"Who will say God will NOT do what He says He will do?" 12 MR 207-209; 10 MR 265

That's right....He does what He wants...He is above the law....If He wants to sin, hey...He is God. If if wishes to get drunk and cap a few folks, hey, He is God...He can do as He pleases. Hey, He might drown you today, John....but whatever, that's fine with me...He is God! Don't you agree, John? Yes...I do.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

pnattmctc: Why do you think that being a Judge means that God must set people on fire? Where is there anything written anywhere that the penalty for sin is being tortured by being set on fire?

John317:The Bible says in many places and in many ways that God will destroy the wicked by fire. The Bible also says God is Creator and Judge and has given over the judging to Jesus Christ. It is not for us at this time to tell God how He shall judge or how He will punish the wicked.

Ok, so your answer to the question is basically that the reason that God must judge the world by setting people on fire to make them "suffer torture" is because this is what you think the Bible says. Ellen White, in commenting on this idea, writes:

Quote:

Will the redeemed in heaven be lost to all emotions of pity and compassion, and even to feelings of common humanity? Are these to be exchanged for the indifference of the stoic or the cruelty of the savage?(GC 535)

It seems to me to respond as you are, either you don't have these emotions of pity and compassion, or you are sort of "turning them off" because that's what you perceive God wants you to do, because He's the judge, and if He wants to set God on fire to make them suffer torture, who are you to tell Him otherwise?

I don't think this is the way God views things at all. It's not that He says, "This is the way I'm doing things! It's My way or the highway!" but rather, God *invites* us to consider carefully His way of doing things, and invites us to judge Him. Of course, we do so reverently, as He is God, and we are His creatures, but it's as if He's invited us to His home, and opened the doors, and says, "Come in! Look around! This is who I am. What do you think?"

I see God as an open God, opening up Himself as much as is possible to our understanding. In Christ, He has revealed His soul. When we see Christ, we've seen the Father, and I don't even see a glimpse of one who would set people on fire to make them suffer torture.

A bit earlier we read a statement by S. N. Haskell which spoke of how the conscience cannot be free if there is a threat involved to make us obey moral injunctions. He spoke of the fiery flames used by Babylon and Rome. The idea you are presenting is the same general idea, which is why Lutz is speaking of having God put the gun down, although what you're suggesting is much worse than a gun.

If we feel that if we do not obey, that if we don't do what He says, that He will set us on fire for many days, then the conscience is not free. Such a thought is horrifying. Our alternatives in the face of such a one, who would burn us alive for days for daring to do other than he says, are to choose not to think of the matter, or convince ourselves that we are exceptions to His wrath, as otherwise I think we'd go insane. Ellen White writes about this:

Quote:

How much of heaven's bliss would be enjoyed by those who were hovering over their friends on earth? And how utterly revolting is the belief that as soon as the breath leaves the body the soul of the impenitent is consigned to the flames of hell! To what depths of anguish must those be plunged who see their friends passing to the grave unprepared, to enter upon an eternity of woe and sin! Many have been driven to insanity by this harrowing thought. {GC 545.2}

Granted the theology here is somewhat different. You're not suggesting that as soon as the breath leaves the body the soul of the impenitent is consigned to the flames of hell, but that the setting of fire and suffering of torture happens later, but it's still a horrific thing to consider being burned alive for many days. Indeed, the pain involved is of such a magnitude that I don't believe it's possible for the mind to take it in. Certainly no one in the history of earth has been tortured anything comparable to this. In earthly torture, defense mechanisms kick in, which limit the pain one suffers. Presumably in setting people on fire to make them suffer, God cuts off these defense mechanisms, as otherwise, what's the point? That is, if you're going to set people on fire to make them suffer, and your God, you don't let the nerve endings be destroyed in the flames, but keep them alive, so the victim can continue to feel the excruciating pain cause by the burning fire.

And all of this is supposedly justice.

I can only wonder in awe (or horror) as to how one can read the Bible and suppose that God is capable of acting in such a horrible manner. Just because certain passages in Scripture seem to read in a certain way? Isn't there something that goes off, a little voice somewhere, that says, "This can't be right? What happened to Jesus Christ's revelation of the Father? What happened to, 'When you've seen Me, you've seen the Father?'"

It's not enough to consider some isolated texts of Scripture, and turn off ones emotions of pity and compassion, in regards to how God treats others, and say it doesn't matter what we believe or feel, because, after all, God is God, and we have to just accept what it says, regardless of how horrible it is. No! We were created in God's image. Our emotions of pity and compassion are just the smallest reflection of His heart of love. We have no idea of His infinite loving kindness towards His children. As we could not set our children on fire as a means of punishment, much more would He be able of such behavior. We have but to look to Jesus Christ to see how He treated others, especially how He treated His enemies. This is the way God treats His enemies.

If our reading of Scripture leads us to view God in such a way that He would set people on fire to make them suffer torture, there's something wrong with how we're reading Scripture. It should be obvious on the face of it that this is the case, simply by considering what such a view says about God. Such a view of God bears no relation whatsoever to the truth as it is in Jesus.

I'm reminded of the following:

Quote:

The parable tells you how the wanderer will be received: "When he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him." Luke 15:18-20. {SC 53.2}

But even this parable, tender and touching as it is, comes short of expressing the infinite compassion of the heavenly Father. The Lord declares by His prophet, "I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with loving-kindness have I drawn thee." Jeremiah 31:3. While the sinner is yet far from the Father's house, wasting his substance in a strange country, the Father's heart is yearning over him; and every longing awakened in the soul to return to God is but the tender pleading of His Spirit, wooing, entreating, drawing the wanderer to his Father's heart of love. {SC 54.1}

How can one imagine that there is an epilogue to this which says, "But if you don't respond to the tender pleading of My Spirit, I'll burn you alive, causing you to suffer such pain as you can't imagine."

[pnattmbtc]

Yes, as mentioned before, the complete fall of Satan did not happen at once. It was progressive. He was "banished from heaven" and "the gates of heaven were barred against him" so that "he could not" re-enter heaven-- all this took place before the creation of the earth. He was cast down again at the time of the cross when Satan's true character and plans were clearly seen for the first time by the onlooking universe.

[skyblue888]

Continued from my last post 333951

The evidences argued here call for a re-study of the Egyptian incident. The long-closed case must be re-opened and a new verdict obtained—one which will indeed reveal God as He is—

The Lord our righteousness.

Of necessity, it will be a radical departure from the traditionally accepted concept. But it will be in harmony with the life and teachings of Christ, the principles of God's character, and God's eternal upholding of His sacred law.

By sending Moses and Aaron to enact the parable of the rods and the serpents, God detailed before Pharaoh exactly what was about to transpire. The Lord would have spelt it out in words, but the monarch's mind was so darkened by sin that it was necessary to tell it in the clearest possible way—in pictorial form.

Millions of other darkened minds since, have failed to read correctly the message God sent to the king that day. It has been almost universally read as the ultimatum of an all-powerful executioner, who had come to personally administer His judgments.

But, "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejecters of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown." The Great Controversy, 36.

Correctly read, this was the message delivered to the haughty monarch. God had ever looked with saving love upon the land of Egypt. It was not alone for the salvation of Israel that Joseph had been kidnapped to the southern kingdom. It was that Egypt might also hear the tender voice of mercy.

Joseph was a type of Christ. Both were betrayed by their brethren, sold for thirty pieces of silver, had no record of sin written in the Bible against them, and, finally, were the saviours of their own nation.

"The sin of the Egyptians was that they had refused the light which God had so graciously sent to them through Joseph." The SDA Bible Commentary, 1:1098.

Christ did not come to save Israel alone, but the whole world. Therefore, as a true type of Christ, Joseph's mission was to bring salvation to the world, not just to his own family.

In the mysterious dreams given by God to the king and in the marvellous interpretations given by Joseph, the Egyptian ruler recognized the voice and power of God and obeyed the directions of the King of kings.

That obedience resulted in Egypt not only being saved from starvation, but also in her becoming the wealthiest nation on the face of the globe. They prospered beyond imagination.

Such prosperity is the natural outworking of obedience to the laws of God's kingdom. Any study of the church's history will show that whenever the people of God obeyed Him, they were wonderfully blessed with prosperity in health, knowledge, power, and wealth. This is the outworking of following out the law of self-sacrificing service, the principle of receiving so that more can be given.

The continuing and despairing tragedy of mankind is the swift forgetfulness of the principles of righteousness which had elevated them in every way. Initially, the basis of their security lay in their complete faith in God. It was a faith so deep and firm that it enabled them to give all they had to meet the need of the moment, and know that God would provide for tomorrow.

No better illustration of this faith can be found than the widow of Sarepta. When Elijah came to her, she had only enough flour and oil to make a last cake for her son and herself. Beyond that, death was the only prospect. When the need of God's cause was presented before her—and how essential to that cause the life of Elijah was—she unhesitatingly gave all the food to him, with simple confidence in the promise that her own need would be supplied.

This kind of faith is the basis of that self-sacrificing love which brings great prosperity to God's people. But, as material possessions accumulate, little by little they displace faith in God as the basis of security. It is always so much easier to believe in money in the bank, a good solid house, and a prosperous farm or business which you can see, than in a distant God whom you cannot see.

It is not that faith has been lost. It has simply been transferred from the God of the gifts to the gifts from God. This is not an instantaneous thing. It is a slow metamorphosis, so gradual as to be imperceptible except to those on guard against it. But, in direct proportion to its development, is an increasing desire to amass wealth to strengthen this material security base, and the corresponding drying up of the spirit of self-sacrifice.

Increasingly, the gifts of God are devoted to selfish pleasure, until selfishness becomes the dominating force in the life. The person or movement which began so richly in God's service, comes to deny the principles of righteousness. He, or it, as the years pass, will go on from this point to develop into the full stature of the man of sin. Step by step they thereby remove themselves from the protecting circle of God's love until they stand fully exposed to Satan's malice. So it was with the Egyptians.

to be continued

[John317]

The "whole purpose" of Jesus Christ's mission was "the revelation of God." Where do we see in Jesus Christ's life or teachings that force or violence had any part to play whatsoever in the Kingdom He was establishing? Where do we see force or violence as a part of God's character in what Jesus Christ revealed?

If you mean where do the Gospels indicate or reveal that God will destroy Satan and the rest of the wicked-- or where do they show that God uses any kind of "violence" against sin and Satan et al-- it is in the following:

Mark 1: 24-26. The demons ask if Christ has come to destroy them. Why? Because they know that some day, Christ will come to destroy them. Also, notice that Christ forces the demons to come out of the man. They do not want to leave the man but they MUST. No choice. Compare Matt. 12: 28.

Matt. 8: 12-- The wicked will be thrown into outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. The wicked are not given a choice whether to enter heaven or not. They are forced to stay out. And they are destroyed by God in the lake of fire. Fire comes down from God out of heaven and consumes them. That is how the Scriptures present it. They do not say that the wicked kill each other or that God merely permits them to die. It says God destroys them.

Matt. 13: 30, 41-42. At the end of the world, the angels of God will separate the good from the wicked, and the wicked will be cast into a furnace of fire, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Also compare Matt. 22: 13.

Mark 9: 42-47. It would be better for the person who does harm to "the little ones who believe in Christ" if he had a millstone hanged around his neck and he were thrown into the sea. Why "better"? Because this man will receive harsher treatment in the judgment. For the same reason, it would be better to cut off you hand or pluck out your eye that offends you than to go into the fire of hell with your body all in one piece. Jesus stresses that this fire of hell, or gehenna will not go out until it has completely burned up the wicked.

Both the Bible and SOP show that as the Creator and Redeemer, God is right to finally destroy Satan and the wicked. It is not something that God needs to apologize for. After Satan has been completely exposed as evil before the onlooking universe, everyone in the universe, including the wicked themselves, will declare that God's judgment is just and right. Soon after that, Satan and all the wicked will be utter destroyed in fire that comes down from God out of heaven. Read all of Rev. 20.

As Ellen White says, "It is in mercy that God finally destroys the wicked." It is not an act of an evil God but of a God of holiness, love, mercy, and justice.

[John317]

Quote:

JOHN3:17: Yes, as mentioned before, the complete fall of Satan did not happen at once. It was progressive. He was "banished from heaven" and "the gates of heaven were barred against him" so that "he could not" re-enter heaven-- all this took place before the creation of the earth. He was cast down again at the time of the cross when Satan's true character and plans were clearly seen for the first time by the onlooking universe.

Quote:

pnattmbtc: How could Satan have been "cast down" again from heaven, if he wasn't there?

It doesn't say Satan was cast out of heaven twice, nor does it say God banished Satan from heaven two times. Satan could not enter heaven but he could go to the entrance and taunt the loyal angels until the death of Christ. (Once Satan was banished from heaven and was told there was no more place for him there, he could not go and come there as he pleased, but it's possible that for a period of time, God gave him permission to represent the earth at the councils where representatives of the various worlds were in attendence.)

Study vol. 1 of the Spirit of Prophecy, pages 22-23; EW 146, 147; GC 498-504; DA 761-764.

[John317]

Quote:

pnattmbtc (quoting Ellen White): It's not an arbitrary act of power on the part of God that excludes Satan from heaven, but his unfitness to be present there, an unfitness caused by his own actions. One cannot live by the principles of selfishness and find heaven a desirable place to be. No, for such, heaven is a place of torture, a place of consuming fire, a place to flee from.

Yes, this is a good quote showing God's reasons for doing what He does, but it's also necessary to study other statements on this same subject in order to get the whole picture. Such as GC 500:

"In the banishment of Satan from heaven, God declared His justice and maintained the honor of His throne."

Elsewhere it says that Satan was "driven" from heaven and the gates were "barred against him." She also says that before the war in heaven began, "God decreed that Satan must be banished" and God told Satan that there was no more place for him there. But Satan refused to go. Obviously Satan did not leave of his own accord or because he decided he didn't want to be there. Ellen White says Satan "could NOT" remain there. He had no choice. He was "expelled." "Expelled" means to be forced out, made to leave, compelled to go, driven out, cast out, turned out, etc.

Ellen White wrote plain, ordinary English. Unlike the Bible, it doesn't have to be translated before we can read it. See English dictionaries and compare her use of "expelled." It will be seen that she used "expelled" in the ordinary sense of "made to go." It is like the word "banned." When members of the forum are banned, they are not leaving on their own accord. They may decide to go, but whether they decide to or not, the decision is made by someone else that they must leave. When people are banned they are not given a choice whether to stay or go. At that point, they MUST go. It's the same with Satan's banishment from heaven. It doesn't sound like he decided to go in peace. The war began after Satan declared that he would resist by force of might, strength against strength." The war only ended in heaven after Satan was "cast out" or driven away. The war does not continue there today. It continues on the earth only.

[Woody]

Quote:

See English dictionaries.

From personal experience ... I have noted that dictionaries are not appreciated nor accepted here on this forum by some. It depends upon which side of the argument they find themselves.

[John317]

When it's a discussion about the meaning of words that were originally written in English, it's an appropriate way of determing what a word signifies. With Ellen White-- as well as some other writers-- it's also a good idea to compare other ways she used the same word.

She compared the expelling of Satan with the expelling of students from school, so she clearly meant that Satan was compelled to leave, just as students are compelled to leave a school. They are not being asked if they want to leave or given a choice at that point whether they would like to stick around for a while.

[skyblue888]

Continued from my last post 334063

While God was working only for their salvation, Satan masterminded a plot for their total destruction. He knew he could touch neither them nor the Israelites while they remained obedient to God.

So he worked with unflagging diligence to turn the eyes of Egypt to their marvellous, God-given prosperity, diverting their attention from the God who had blessed them to the blessing received from God. As usual, he was successful. Egypt became proud, self-confident, self-serving, and oppressive. To the people of God, the Israelites, through whom all the blessings had come, they now became taskmasters.

Thus Satan engineered a situation wherein the Israelites were not able to serve God fully except at the direct cost of their lives. The daily sacrificial system ceased, the Sabbath was hardly kept, if at all, and the people became degraded in sin.

This was just as Satan wanted it for he knew that once he had led Egypt into the full practice of self-service and therefore of utter rejection of God, they would move outside the circle of God's mercy and would be in his destructive power.

As generation after generation of Egyptians descended more deeply into the mire of abandoned iniquity, Satan saw the day drawing nearer when there would be none of God's protection left. He exulted in the increasing depravity of the Israelites, for this meant they had less and less of God's protection also.

Plotting every move with calculated care, he proposed to involve the land of Egypt in a destructive cataclysm of such proportions as to exterminate every Israelite, thus certifying that the Redeemer would never be born. If this necessitated obliterating every Egyptian as well, Satan would not hesitate.

It must be emphasized that, as the day of Egypt's doom approached, God was not voluntarily withdrawing His protective

presence from them. They were taking themselves outside it. They were making it impossible for God to remain.

Meanwhile Satan was marshalling destructive forces in an attack ring around the whole nation. All it needed now was for the Egyptians to make the final dismissal of God from His position as Protector, for the plagues to begin.

The Egyptians had become unthankful, self-sufficient, self-centred, self-reliant, and self-serving. They deemed they had no need of God and were even superior to Him. They had advanced from one depth of wickedness to even greater, and had come to the point of making the final dismissal of Christ from their world.

It was now that Moses and Aaron appeared with the rods. This was God's last love message to the haughty king. The message was given in the simplest possible form, pictorially, in an acted parable.

With what simple and beautiful clarity, the Lord sought to communicate to Pharaoh the vital truth that at no time whatsoever, while the powers of nature are still in God's hands and under His control, can they be agents of destruction. Only when out of His hands and control can they be such.

This truth is not limited to those days or to that particular situation. The Lord does not change. Ever since man fell, till today and beyond to the final annihilation at the end of the thousand years, the truth revealed in the rods and the serpents is the same. Never while the powers of man and nature are in God's hands and control, can they be destroyers. That is impossible.

This is beautifully illustrated in the experience of Elijah at Horeb. He had fled from Jezebel in fear and discouragement to take refuge in a cave.

"And he came thither unto a cave, and lodged there; and, behold, the word of the Lord came to him, and He said unto him, What doest thou here, Elijah? And he said, I have been very jealous for the Lord God of hosts: for the children of Israel have forsaken Thy covenant, thrown down Thine altars, and slain Thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away. And He said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the Lord. And, behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the Lord; but the Lord was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the Lord was not in the earthquake: And after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice. And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, there came a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah?" 1 Kings 19:9-12.

Had God been in the wind, that is, had those forces been in His hands and under His control, no storm would have been possible. There would have been only peace and blessing.

Likewise the earthquake and fire were manifestations of great natural forces turned into agencies of destruction, but they were not such under God's control and direction, for He was not in the earthquake or the fire. Had He been in the mighty powers unleashed, there would have been an altogether different result. Firm ground would have been beneath Elijah instead of the earth rolling like the sea.

The truth that so long as the powers of nature are in God's hands and under His control, they can never break into any form of destruction, needs to become forever settled in the minds of every child of God.

This is the message with which God sought to convict and convert the heart of the king of Egypt. As Moses and Aaron stood there in his presence, with the rod firmly held in their hands under their direct and complete control, they portrayed to the wicked ruler a picture of things as they then stood. This picture showed that, despite the many decades during which Egypt had sunk into deeper iniquity, the mighty powers of nature were still under God's control and direction.

to be continued

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Between those and Mr. Murphy, I feel sorry for the poor thief in the night.

I feel sorry for you when the thief sneaks up on you while you are asleep and caps your butt....You aren't invincible. All these weapons show you are insecure.....Let God take care of you, dude, and don't trust in your own strength.

Robert, don't you ever get tired of being wrong? I guess not, since in your eyes, you've probably never been wrong before.

You assume that because I own guns, that the reason I own them is for self defence. Of course nothing could be further from the truth. I rarely even think about self defence. I don't hunt either.

Actually Robert, shooting is a sport and a hobby to millions across this country. You really should get out more. But I don't have to explain anything to you. You just keep right on assuming. But you do know what happens when you assume though. You should.

As far as someone sneaking up on me while I'm sleeping. Anybody who knows Mr. Murphy would never try anything so foolish. And if they didn't know about Mr. Murphy and tried that, oh well.

If God chooses to let something bad happen to me, it will happen. I have no problem with that. I trust him, and realize that He knows what is best.

[John317]

Quote:

JOHN3:17: The sentences, phrases and words in this section which show that it's referring to events leading up the Second coming of Christ, and not to the events that take place at the final destruction, are given in red. These same points are listed at the end of the post.

Here's the quote from Ellen White:

"God bears long with the rebellion and apostasy of His subjects. Even when His mercy is despised and His love scorned and derided, He bears with man until the last resource for leading them to repentance is exhausted. But there are limits to His forbearance.From those who to the end continue in obstinate rebellion, He removes His protecting care. Providence will no longer shield them from Satan's power. They will have sinned away their day of grace. God keeps a reckoning with the nations. Not a sparrow falls to the ground without His notice. Those who work evil toward their fellow men, saying, How doth God know? will one day be called to meet the long-deferred vengeance. In this age a more than common contempt is shown to God.

Men have reached a point in insolence and disobedience which shows that their cup of iniquity is almost full. Many have well-nigh passed the boundary of mercy. Soon God will show that He is indeed the living God. He will say to the angels, 'No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out His malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work.

This time is right upon us. The Spirit of God is being withdrawn from the earth. When the angel of mercy folds her wings and departs, Satan will do the evil deeds he has long wished to do. Storm and tempest, war and bloodshed,--in these things he delights, and thus he gathers in his harvest." 4 RH 335. Notice the following:

1) It's speaking of the time when the last resource for leading them to repetence is exhausted.

2)When God removes protective care.

3)When Providence no longer shields.

4) When the wicked have sinned away their day of grace.

5) When their cup of iniquity is full.

6) When God will no longer interfere.

7) This time was right upon SDAs at the time of writing.

8) When the angel of mercy folds wings and departs.

9) When Satan gathers in his harvest.

I submit that all of the above point unquestionably to the time that occurs right before the second coming of Christ and NOT at the final destruction of the wicked at the end of time. None of the above occur for the first time after the Great White Throne Judgment. It is when the angels no longer hold the winds of strife but allow Satan to work his will upon the world, except for the righteous. Anyone who's well acquainted with the sequence of events in Bible prophecy will recongize that these things are fulfilled just before probation ends and at the falling of the Seven Last Plagues. For instance, the wicked have sinned away their day of grace long before their final destruction, and the same can be said of all nine points.

Quote:

Skyblue: so your point is that in the day of final reckoning God will personally and directly punish and destroy the impenitent, something He never did before? is that it?

"And now, invested with supremem majesty and power, the King of kings pronounces sentence upon the rebels against His government and executes justice upon those who have transgressed His law and opposed His people." GC 666-667.

What is your response to the points made which show the paragraphs in 4 RH 335 are not referring to the final destruction of the wicked but to the time when God allows Satan freedom to destroy just before the second coming of Christ?

I think the following helps answer your question:

"I saw that the angels of God are never to control the will. God sets before man life and death. He can have his choice. Many desire life, but still continue to walk in the broad road. They choose to rebel against God's government, notwithstanding His great mercy and compassion in giving His Son to die for them. Those who do not choose to accept of the salvation so dearly purchased, MUST BE PUNISHED. But I saw that God would not shut them up in hell to endure endless misery, neither will He take them to heaven; for to bring them into the company of the pure and holy would make them exceedingly miserable. BUT HE WILL DESTROY THEM UTTERLY AND CAUSE THEM TO BE AS IF THEY HAD NOT BEEN; THEN HIS JUSTICE WILL BE SATISFIED. He formed man of the dust of the earth, and the disobedient and unholy will be consumed by fire and return to dust again. I saw that the benevolence and compassion of God in this matter should lead all to admire His character and to adore His holy name. After the wicked are destroyed from off the earth, all the heavenly host will say, 'Amen.'" EW 221 (SR 391).

It's clear to me, on the basis of her language and of the many other things she write on the subject, that this statement of Ellen White's is to be understood literally:

"Then I saw thrones, and Jesus and the redeemed saints sat upon them, and the saints reigned as kings and priests unto God. Christ, in union with His people, judged the wicked dead, comparing their acts with the statute book, the Word of God, and deciding every case according to the deeds done in the body. Then they meted out to the wicked the portion which they must suffer, according to their works; and it was written against their names in the book of death. Satan also and his angels were judged by Jesus and the saints. Satan's punishment was to be far greater than that of those whom he had deceived. His suffering would so far exceed theirs as to bear no comparison with it. After all those whom he had deceived had perished, Satan was still to live and suffer on much longer." See EW 290-291; pp. 51-53; and SR 415-420; also GC 660-661.

Sister White quotes the angel of God: "' Behold ye,' said the angel, 'the sains, in union with Jesus, sit in judgment, and mete out to the wicked according to the deeds done in the body, and that which they MUST receive at the execution of the judgemtn is set off against their names.'" EW 52, 53.

Ellen White says Jesus Himself pronounces the death sentence upon the wicked. See GC 666-667.

Christ and the Father also "execute justice upon the wicked." Ibid.

The wicked destroy themselves by their own choices, making themselves unfit to inhabit heaven or the new earth, but it is God who causes the fire to come down and destroy them utterly. He does this in mercy to the wicked as well as to the righteous. That this is God's will is proved by the fact that their suffering is determined by Jesus and the saints after they study the lives of the wicked during the 1000 years. This is stated clearly and distinctly by Ellen White in EW 290-291, a passage that has already been quoted above. Here it is again:

"Christ, in union with His people, judged the wicked dead, comparing their acts with the statute book, the Word of God, and deciding every case according to the deeds done in the body. Then they meted out to the wicked the portion which they must suffer, according to their works; and it was written against their names in the book of death. Satan also and his angels were judged by Jesus and the saints. Satan's punishment was to be far greater than that of those whom he had deceived. His suffering would so far exceed theirs as to bear no comparison with it. After all those whom he had deceived had perished, Satan was still to live and suffer on much longer."

As a long-time student of poetry and world literature, I see no reason in either the language or in the context to consider as metaphorical or symbolic these statements by Ellen White concerning the final destruction of the wicked. I believe the evidence shows they are intended by the writer to be understood literally.

I would like to know what you think of what I've written here. Please be specific and address the points and the quotes as directly as possible.

I am especially interested in knowing if you believe that a literal understanding of the last quote by Ellen White makes God look bad, maybe as bad as Satan. I know many would say yes. I say "no, it doesn't. On the contrary, I see the benevolence and compassion of God in this matter and believe that when it is truly understand, it will lead all to admire His character and to adore His holy name." As Ellen White says, "After the wicked are destroyed from off the earth, all the heavenly host [who know ALL the relevant information] will say, 'Amen.'"

[skyblue888]

John, pnatt has already addressed all these points over and over and over. You know that. Yet, it is as though he had not. We keep going in circles. Some read and interpret these statements you keep quoting in a certain way and others of us do read them and interpret them in a totally different way based on principles revealed in several other statements. If we refuse to pay attention to these statements, then how can we rightly read and interpret the statements you are quoting? The statements you and others are quoting need to be put side by side with the statements that provide the key as to how they are to be understood or interpreted.

sky

[John317]

John, pnatt has already addressed all these points over and over and over. You know that. sky

Please show me the post where he has directly addressed these points. Or can you copy and paste them? I have seen nothing that speaks directly to this issue of whether RH, vol 4, page 335, is dealing with the destruction of the wicked.

Notice the following, concerning 4 RH 335, which you said is dealing with the final destruction of the wicked.

1) It's speaking of the time when the last resource for leading them to repetence is exhausted.

2)When God removes protective care.

3)When Providence no longer shields.

4) When the wicked have sinned away their day of grace.

5) When their cup of iniquity is full.

6) When God will no longer interfere.

7) This time was right upon SDAs at the time of writing.

8) When the angel of mercy folds wings and departs.

9) When Satan gathers in his harvest.

I submit that all of the above point unquestionably to the time that occurs right before the second coming of Christ and NOT at the final destruction of the wicked at the end of time. None of the above occur for the first time after the Great White Throne Judgment. It is when the angels no longer hold the winds of strife but allow Satan to work his will upon the world, except for the righteous. Anyone who's well acquainted with the sequence of events in Bible prophecy will recongize that these things are fulfilled just before probation ends and at the falling of the Seven Last Plagues. For instance, the wicked have sinned away their day of grace long before their final destruction, and the same can be said of all nine points.

Let me know where you think this is wrong, and why you believe it is.

[skyblue888]

John, you already know where I stand. "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression, but He leaves the rejecters of His mercy to reap that which they have sown." G.C.36.

This has to be true, always. Otherwise God would be a liar. But God cannot lie. So it is always true, before or after the millenium. Before the entrance of sin God had never destroyed. Sin did not change Him and after the millenium He is still unchanged. He has never personally or directly destroyed anyone and never will.

And there are all the other statements pnatt kept quoting about the use of force, of compelling power, etc, etc,

I must stand by those statements for they are the key that explains how we are to interpret the language of the Bible when it comes to the principles of God's dealing with sin. All of God's judgments do not come directly out from Him but in this way--the people place themselves beyond His protection.

I know pnatt has dealt with these statements. I will let him confirm that he did.

sky

[John317]

The statements you and others are quoting need to be put side by side with the statements that provide the key as to how they are to be understood or interpreted.

I agree wholeheartedly. We also need to consider everything she wrote on the subject, in the same way we do with the Bible. Have you considered all of Ellen White quotes on this topic as published in An Exhaustive Ellen G. White Commentary On Revelation? I recently got it and have been studying it the last few months.

I think what many are doing is reading all of her statements with their minds made up that everything must be understood in the light of a "universal principle" that is not really universal. I believe the solution is to read all of her statements without preconceived ideas of what they must signify.

I haven't seen your explanation of the following:

"Then I saw thrones, and Jesus and the redeemed saints sat upon them, and the saints reigned as kings and priests unto God. Christ, in union with His people, judged the wicked dead, comparing their acts with the statute book, the Word of God, and deciding every case according to the deeds done in the body. Then they meted out to the wicked the portion which they must suffer, according to their works; and it was written against their names in the book of death. Satan also and his angels were judged by Jesus and the saints. Satan's punishment was to be far greater than that of those whom he had deceived. His suffering would so far exceed theirs as to bear no comparison with it. After all those whom he had deceived had perished, Satan was still to live and suffer on much longer." See EW 290-291; pp. 51-53; and SR 415-420; also GC 660-661.

Sister White quotes the angel of God: "' Behold ye,' said the angel, 'the saints, in union with Jesus, sit in judgment, and mete out to the wicked according to the deeds done in the body, and that which they MUST receive at the execution of the judgement is set off against their names.'" EW 52, 53.

The wicked destroy themselves by their own choices, making themselves unfit to inhabit heaven or the new earth, but the portion that they must suffer is determined beforehand and not left to chance or to the acts and decisions of other wicked people. It is God who causes the fire to come down and destroy them utterly. He does this in mercy to the wicked as well as to the righteous. That this is God's will is proved by the fact that their suffering is determined by Jesus and the saints after they study the lives of the wicked during the 1000 years. This is stated clearly and distinctly by Ellen White in EW 290-291, a passage that has already been quoted above.

Your thoughts?

[John317]

We do agree on most things.

It's a very interesting topic and I've enjoyed the exchanges.

[teresaq]

Continued from my last post 334063

This is beautifully illustrated in the experience of Elijah at Horeb. He had fled from Jezebel in fear and discouragement to take refuge in a cave.

"And he came thither unto a cave, and lodged there; and, behold, the word of the Lord came to him, and He said unto him, What doest thou here, Elijah? And he said, I have been very jealous for the Lord God of hosts: for the children of Israel have forsaken Thy covenant, thrown down Thine altars, and slain Thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away. And He said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the Lord. And, behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the Lord; but the Lord was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the Lord was not in the earthquake: And after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice. And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, there came a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah?" 1 Kings 19:9-12.

how many of us meditate on this?

in the midst of all the violence and mayhem of the ot are these gems scattered throughout that we overlook because the other is so "visible". we believe the visible is the reality, while it is the heavenly things that are the reality.

the visible will all pass away.

[John317]

Quote:

Ellen G. White: "Who will say God will NOT do what He says He will do?" 12 MR 207-209; 10 MR 265

Quote:

ROBERT: That's right....He does what He wants...He is above the law....If He wants to sin, hey...He is God. If if wishes to get drunk and cap a few folks, hey, He is God...He can do as He pleases. Hey, He might drown you today, John....but whatever, that's fine with me...He is God! Don't you agree, John? Yes...I do.

Yes, the Bible says God does as He pleases. He certainly loves all humanity and has no pleasure in the death of the wicked. He is unselfish, and He always does the right thing. But He decides what is right and wrong without consulting human beings. It's not left up to people to tell God what to do. And yes, God is above the law. He makes all law, and therefore it should be obvious that the law is not above Him.

But yet there's the Investigative Judgment, and one can't help seeing from studying it that God also cares very much what his intelligent creatures think of Him. He even submits his actions and decisions to them in an open forum for them to discuss and ask questions and find answers. This also comes out in how he told his friend Abraham what he was going to do to the people of Sodom. He didn't have to tell Abraham about it, but that's the kind of God we worship, serve and admire.

I don't have a problem with God's destroying the wicked exactly the way the Bible teaches He will. I trust Him. He knows exactly what He's doing. If I find out that I'm wrong about this topic and that the Bible only meant those descriptions in a metaphorical way, that will be fine, too. I have no argument with God. Whatever He does is right and good. He's proved it. He deserves our trust.