"war in heaven" - real or metaphorical?

[pnattmbtc]

I've thought the same kinds of things, Bob. It's self-evident that we're not talking about "natural" results of sin when we refer to the judgment during the thousand years,the second resurrection, the Great White Throne Judgment, and death of the wicked. The first three are supernatual events brought about by God, and therefore it makes sense that the execution of the judgment is also supernatural.

[pnattmbtc]

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Christianity is intended to be an ever-deepening journey into the heart of God, by which the beholding of His glory gradually transforms the believer into the same character likeness (2 Cor. 3:18). For those who persist in sin to the ruin of their inner capacity to discern and reflect God’s love, that fire of divine love which would have cleansed them will, on the day of final reckoning, ignite in their souls a destructive measure of shame and guilt. The glory of Him who is love will be more than the conscience can bear.

On the day of unveiled encounter, they will experience psychological and emotional meltdown in God’s immediate presence. “’For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up.’ Says the Lord of hosts,’ That will leave them neither root nor branch. But to you who fear My name [love My character] the Sun of Righteousness shall arise with healing in His wings [in the rays of light that emanate from Him]’ “(Malachi 4:1, 2, NKJC). Everyone will eventually meet God in all the radiance of His glorious love. Some will be consumed, while others are healed by the very same encounter.(Shades of Grace, by Ty Gibson)

[pnattmbtc]

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pnattmbtc: No. I haven't said anything one way or the other regarding this.

John317:Why wouldn't you say anything? Why not discuss the reason you believe that idea of the death of the wicked is incorrect?

Given I haven't said anything one way or the other, why are you assuming there's a reason I believe the idea is incorrect?

Leaving that aside, I've already stated on a number of occasions that I believe in the principle of proportionate suffering. You can see that would create certain difficulties with the position suggested, can't you?

[BobRyan]

[John317]

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BobRyan: ITS UTTER EXTERMINATION, WHICH IN THE BEGINNING WOULD HAVE BROUGHT FEAR TO ANGELS AND DISHONOR TO GOD, WILL NOW VINDICATE

Notice that the VERY thing you are so happy to claim God did NOT do at the first of Lucifer's rebellion - is the VERY thing that is being done at the end! It is the SAME thing!

You make an extremely important point here, and it's something that Ellen White says not just once but several times.

For instance, DA 761:

Speaking of what occurred after the cross, she says, "Yet Satan was not THEN destroyed." So she says Satan was not "immediately" destroyed after his rebellion and again that Satan was not destroyed after the cross. Why? In both cases it was because the angels still did not understand all that was involved in the great controversy, and God chose not to destroy Satan until they did understand all.

At the end of this same chapter of DA, she says, "But not so when the great controversy shall be ended... THEN the extermination of sin will vindicate God's love and establish His honor before {the] universe..." DA 764

The only way the above language can be understood is that the issues which would previously have caused doubts and questions will finally be resolved so that the destruction of Satan, or the extermination of sin, can be accomplished for the good of the whole universe.

[BobRyan]

Let's go with this idea that the only consequence is a natural consequence of the type when you break a natural law.

So in that fiction - the tree of knowledge has fruit - and that fruit is God's speacial weapons grade poison. So Eve goes over to the tree - and there is snake - when the snake bites the apple it writhes in agony and dies.

Eve says "see -- told yah" and walks away.

(Turns out we have plants on earth just like that today -- And if you eat one of those poisonous plants

the universe does not need you to wait 6,000 years to die so they can "be ready to see it")

Let's try that same thing in heaven - one day Lucifer stabs a cat in heaven - and the cat dies.

God says - SEE! this is what happens when you stab a cat with a sword. So nobody stabs cats any more after that.

(Thus all problems in this model have been recast to "natural law violations" so as to only have natural law consequences)

HINT: But in real life we notice that God does not super-glue Abel back together when Cain whacks him - saying "oh no! I cannot let Able suffer the natural consequence of getting whacked to pieces - everyone will be afraid. No one will see this as a loving result for violating a law of nature -- so I will suspend that natural law for now until the universe is ready to see that whacking someone in 20 pieces causes them to die to death".

--

[pnattmbtc]

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Yes it is absurd, when you apply your human logic to it. As if God were limited by that.

What? You mean you can assert anything, regardless of how illogical it is? And this doesn't matter, since God is not limited by logic?

If so, if you're arguing that asserting things which are illogical is good, it's hard to argue against that! (what would one do; present an illogical argument?)

[BobRyan]

As it turns out -

1. coveting does not cause the wicked dead to be raised after 1000 years of dormancy.

2. Coveting does not cause the Earth's surface to break up so that the "very rocks are on fire".

3. Coveting does not cause each sinner to burn the exact amount of time owed for their sins by the Law before they wink out of existence.

Coveting has no such magical powers.

[John317]

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pnattmbtc: No. I haven't said anything one way or the other regarding this.

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John317:Why wouldn't you say anything? Why not discuss the reason you believe that idea of the death of the wicked is incorrect?

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pnattmbtc: Given I haven't said anything one way or the other, why are you assuming there's a reason I believe the idea is incorrect?

I would like very much not to have to assume it or anything else. I prefer certainty.

Do you, then, believe it's incorrect?

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pnattmbtc: Leaving that aside, I've already stated on a number of occasions that I believe in the principle of proportionate suffering. You can see that would create certain difficulties with the position suggested, can't you?

Yes, I do, and sky has said he also sees a problem here, yet he has said that he still believes it. I'm sure sky also believes in the principle of "proportionate suffering," but that evidently doesn't prevent him from believing the wicked kill each other.

I don't know what sky believes about this now, but I am going by what he has stated in the past.

Also, I noticed that you call it "proportionate suffering," but the Bible and SOP refer to it as "punishment," not merely suffering.

Do you believe there's anything wrong or unjust with "proportionate punishment" at the end? How do you understand the difference, if any, between the final "suffering" and the "punishment" of the wicked?

[pnattmbtc]

It is quite simple. you only allow for "natural consequences"

[BobRyan]

Luke 12 turns out to be instructive at this point - just for reference.

4 ""I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do.

5 ""But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!

47 ""And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes,

48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

49 ""I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled!

[BobRyan]

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BobRyan: ITS UTTER EXTERMINATION, WHICH IN THE BEGINNING WOULD HAVE BROUGHT FEAR TO ANGELS AND DISHONOR TO GOD, WILL NOW VINDICATE

Notice that the VERY thing you are so happy to claim God did NOT do at the first of Lucifer's rebellion - is the VERY thing that is being done at the end! It is the SAME thing!

You make an extremely important point here, and it's something that Ellen White says not just once but several times.

For instance, DA 761:

Speaking of what occurred after the cross, she says, "Yet Satan was not THEN destroyed." So she says Satan was not "immediately" destroyed after his rebellion and again that Satan was not destroyed after the cross. Why? In both cases it was because the angels still did not understand all that was involved in the great controversy, and God chose not to destroy Satan until they did understand all.

At the end of this same chapter of DA, she says, "But not so when the great controversy shall be ended... THEN the extermination of sin will vindicate God's love and establish His honor before {the] universe..." DA 764

The only way the above language can be understood is that the issues which would previously have caused doubts and questions will finally be resolved so that the destruction of Satan, or the extermination of sin, can be accomplished for the good of the whole universe.

Indeed John! The point is not as hard to see as some might like to imagine.

Another related point -

IF the "natural consequence" of sin was that your head exploded on contact with sin -- (but of course the universe is "not ready to see that for at least 6000 years of prep time" so God delays the "natural result") -- then the universe would ALSO "not be ready to see Abel die at the hands of Cain for oh say about 6000 years".

If these are all just natural consequences that the universe is "not ready to see" - then there would have been NO first death at all - for the last 6000 years - while we all "wait" for the universe to get ready - to see "natural consequence".

The reason for the 6000 year "wait" time is that the punishment for violation of moral law is very 'unnatural'. It involves supernaturally resurrecting all the wicked. It involves judging them for the exact sins and determining exact amounts of suffering owed -- then it involved exact amount of torment and suffering applied.

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

What saves us is what God did IN Christ. God was IN Christ, reconciling the world to Himself.

[BobRyan]

So How "unnatural" was Christ's suffering?

Notice how "unnatural" is the 2nd death suffering - from the very start. We begin by raising the dead - in the 2nd resurrection and we see it end with the following -

Great Controversy - 673

Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething 673

lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished “according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit.

His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

EW 294

The Second Death

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together.

I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but

295

also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!"

{EW 294.2}

Said the angel, "Satan is the root, his children are the branches. They are now consumed root and branch. They have died an everlasting death. They are never to have a resurrection, and God will have a clean universe." I then looked and saw the fire which had consumed the wicked, burning up the rubbish and purifying the earth. Again I looked and saw the earth purified. There was not a single sign of the curse. The broken, uneven surface of the earth now looked like a level, extensive plain.

[BobRyan]

I've asked a couple of times regarding this. I don't mind it not being answered, as I realize there are a lot of posts in this thread, and it's difficult to keep track of everything that's been said. I just want to make sure I didn't miss a response.

What I've asked is that, it seems to me that your idea is that the righteous view the records of their loved ones, considering each and every sin, and decide for how long they should burn for each sin. Is this right? So a lesser sin would be maybe a fraction of a second, but a real whopper could be several minutes. This is the idea?

Luke 12 spells it out "in general"

1Cor 6 and Rev 20 point to the part where the saints are judging.

But the exact detail of who sits where and what list is before them - is not seen this side of heaven.

Imagining details beyond that does not help the argument.

[pnattmbtc]

pnattmbtc: No. I haven't said anything one way or the other regarding this.

John317:Why wouldn't you say anything? Why not discuss the reason you believe that idea of the death of the wicked is incorrect?

pnattmbtc: Given I haven't said anything one way or the other, why are you assuming there's a reason I believe the idea is incorrect?

J:I would like very much not to have to assume it or anything else. I prefer certainty.

[Robert]

Luke 12 makes it clear - different amounts of torment for different sinners.

Context:

He [the Master] will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

Can't beat someone with a few or many blows if he/she is cut into pieces.

[skyblue888]

John317 had asked me what I thought about this statement:

"Christ, in union with His people, judged the wicked dead, comparing their acts with the statute book, the Word of God, and deciding every case according to the deeds done in the body. Then they meted out to the wicked the portion which they must suffer, according to their works; and it was written against their names in the book of death. Satan also and his angels were judged by Jesus and the saints. Satan's punishment was to be far greater than that of those whom he had deceived. His suffering would so far exceed theirs as to bear no comparison with it. After all those whom he had deceived had perished, Satan was still to live and suffer on much longer." E.W.290,291.

John, there was a time when, before I was aware of such statements as "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression," or "I was shown that the judgments of God would not come direclty out from the Lord upon them but in this way--they place themselves beyond His protection," and many others, that, like you, I would read this statement from E.G.290,291, and picture God and the saints deciding the fate of the wicked, how much suffering to inflict upon each one of them to make sure that each one paid for his evil deeds, very much according to the ways of an earthly tribunal, that is, according to the thoughts and ways of sinful men.

John, in those days, I was thinking as a man, as a man who was unmindful of the Scriptures which declare that "My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways, says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8,9.

Do we even begin to appreciate these words when it comes to God's thoughts and ways, as far as punishing and destroying is concerned? If we don't, it is difficult for us to correctly understand a statement the like of which you quoted from E.W.290,291.

That statement and similar ones must be read with Isaiah 55:8,9. God's thougths and ways are so not like ours that it cannot even begin to bear any comparison. So the language of E.W.290,281 must be read with that in mind.

I know this much and that is that according to Isaiah 55:8,9 what will be done during the 1,000 years, (as far as God and the saints "deciding" the punishment that is to fall upon the wicked), we can expect that it will be absolutely and totally contrary to the thoughts and ways of sinful men and their ideas as to how justice is to be done. One thing we may be sure of is that after it is all said and done, all will see and marvel how God's thoughts and ways are definitely not the thoughts and ways of sinful men. We must not read that statement from E.G.290,291 and think in terms of the way earthly tribunals mete out the punishment to be inflicted upon law-breakers or criminals. Otherwise, we would make Isaiah 55:8,9 of none effect. God's thoughts and ways of making sure justice will be done after the thousand years are so different than the thoughts and ways of sinful men that they bear no comparison whatsoever.

So shall see.

sky

*That's why i tend to go with pnatt and robert and teresa on this.

[pnattmbtc]

You have yet to identify anything at all in this that is variable or arbitrary such that anyone is "arbitrarily selecting from a list of acceptable outcomes - based on whim".

[pnattmbtc]

IF the "natural consequence" of sin was that your head exploded on contact with sin -- (but of course the universe is "not ready to see that for at least 6000 years of prep time" so God delays the "natural result") -- then the universe would ALSO "not be ready to see Abel die at the hands of Cain for oh say about 6000 years".

[pnattmbtc]

Speculation...and that's EGW. Even if God was present, Christ didn't know it....

[John317]

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JOHN3:17: It's self-evident that we're not talking about "natural" results of sin when we refer to the judgment during the thousand years,the second resurrection, the Great White Throne Judgment, and death of the wicked. The first three are supernatural events brought about by God, and therefore it makes sense that the execution of the judgment is also supernatural.

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pnattmbtc: I'd agree that it's supernatural. Anything God is involved in is supernatural. What I disagree with is that God imposes artificial measures to punish.

Of course God does not impose artificial measures to punish.

His "measures" are never artificial or arbitrary, to my way of thinking.

Would you say that Jesus' "meting out to the wicked the portion they MUST suffer" is arbitrary or artificial?

I don't see it that way. I don't see God and Christ doing anything arbitrarily and artificially, particularly when it comes to the salvation of the righteous or the destruction of the wicked.

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pnattmbtc: Here are a couple of problems I see with this:

1.It supposes that sin is innocuous.

I have never said that sin is innocuous, nor have I implied it, although your view of the death of the wicked may cause you to think this is what I've been saying. But, no, I don't believe sin is innocuous. Far from it.

People often suffer in this life for their sins, apart from any punishment imposed by others. God made the universe with laws that make this true. For instance, lying will eventually catch up with people and cause them trouble. So will murder and adultery.

But sin doesn't always or necessarily cause suffering. The Bible is full of testimony that the wicked often prosper and escape punishment in this life. But they won't escape it in the next life. That's where God's justice comes in. God makes it happen. For instance, Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot, all escaped justice in this life, but they will certainly not escape God's justice after the second resurrection.

The reason sin is not innocuous is due to the fact that God made the universe in such a way that sin is NOT innocuous. For instance, God could have allowed Adam to eat of the tree of life and live forever as a sinner. But God is too wise and too loving to do that. So God chose to drive Adam and all mankind out of garden so that he and all his progeny would die. That was God's choice, not something that happended apart from God's plan. After Adam sinned, it was God's will that Adam die. He did not want Adam and sinners to go on living forever. They had to die because Adam chose to rebel, and they actually did eventually die because God drove them out of the Garden. See Gen 3: 24.

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pnattmbtc: 2.It postulates God acting in ways contrary to His character and the principles of His government (specifically, setting people on fire to "suffer torture" to punish them).

In all due respect, it may be that you misunderstand something about God's character. (I'm not saying that I also don't misunderstand something, and even no doubt much, about God character.) Ellen White: "The men who promptly and speedily executed the divine judgments upon those heathen nations have been pronounce harsh and unmerciful in destroying so many human lifes. But all who reason thus, fail to understand the character and dealings of God." ST, Jan. 6, 1881.

You statement here assumes that God's character would not allow him to punish sinners. However, Ellen White says, "It is the glory of God to be merciful, full of forbearance, kindness, goodness, and truth. BUT THE JUSTICE SHOWN IN PUNISHING THE SINNER IS AS VERILY THE GLORY OF THE LORD AS IS THE MANIFESTATION OF HIS MERCY." LDE 240"In all the Bible, God is presented not only as a Being of mercy and benevolence, but as a God of STRICT and IMPARTIAL JUSTICE." (LDE 240; ST March 24, 1881)

She also says it's not the business of human beings to "dictate to God" how He shall punish the sinner. This statement is in the context of the final destruction of the wicked. See 12 MR 208.

Also: "... leave to the Lord to deal with the work of His hands according to His own wise purposes..." ST, Jan. 6, 1881.

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JOHN3:17: God holds a trial, or judgment, in heaven in which every individual who's lost has his life studied in close detail to "decide the portion that the wicked must suffer for the deeds done in the body." (There are, of course, additional reasons for the review of people's lives.)

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pnattmbtc: ..What I've asked is that, it seems to me that your idea is that the righteous view the records of their loved ones, considering each and every sin, and decide for how long they should burn for each sin. Is this right? So a lesser sin would be maybe a fraction of a second, but a real whopper could be several minutes. This is the idea?

The righteous view the records of everyone, not only those of their loved ones. At that point, everyone on earth will be their loved ones, just as all humanity are now the loved ones of the Father and of Christ (as well as of the Holy Spirit). We will agape/love those we're judging.

We don't know all of the details of the way it's decided how long people MUST suffer for their deeds. But it's interesting-- and I think significant-- that Ellen White says, "must suffer" and not "will suffer." It seems to indicate some kind of rule by which the amount of suffering is measured. The Bible or SOP don't tell us more specifically than that. But for sure it does tell us that Christ and the righteous do in fact study the records of people's lives in order to "mete out to the wicked the portion which they must suffer, according to their works." EW 290. Notice that GC says that Christ and the righteous "decide every case according to the deeds done in the body." This "deciding" is unquestionably in reference to the "meting out" of the suffering of the lost. GC 661.

There are many things that will be taken into account in deciding every case. God will take into account people's backgrounds, their heredity, whether they had an opportunity to know more truth, how much "light" they had, etc. Luke 12: 46-48 definitely supports this view. Are you in essential agreement with this?

You and others may not like the idea that the righteous will be studying the lives of the wicked for the purpose of determining how much the wicked suffer for the sins, but it is a fact clearly stated in the Spirit of prophecy, and the Bible itself indicates the same thing.

I think the reason we are repelled by the concept is that we don't have a right perspective of the damage and destruction that sin does and of the issues involved.

I certainly don't like the thought that I will be examining the life of my dear uncle or aunt or possibly my grandfather, for the purpose of deciding how much they MUST suffer. But neither do I like the idea that they will in any case die a horrible death after being judged by Christ.

But the fact that we don't like it doesn't mean it isn't true. In fact, I'm sure that the judgment of the wicked is not something that Christ or any of the saints will enjoy. On the contrary, without question both Christ and the righteous will shed a great many tears during that time. It will be a time, I'm sure, of both happiness and terrible sadness. But in the end, there will be great joy that sin has been destroyed and that the universe is once again all in harmony and peace.

There won't be anyone running around whispering, "You know what God did? He destroyed Satan and all those angels and people who were following him. Doesn't that make God just like the Devil?"

No. The righteous and all the watching universe will sing God's praises for finally getting rid of all sin and returning the universe to complete peace and harmony.

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JOHN3:17: 3) At the end of the 1000 years Christ raises the wicked to be judged before Him and the Father.

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pnattmbtc: This isn't the primary reason they're raised, but it's a reason.

It's the only reason specifically and directly mentioned in the Bible. That and their destruction by fire.

But it's true that there's much the universe learns from the second resurrection. During that time, the wicked prove that they haven't changed. They are still the same wicked people they were when they went into their graves.

This helps to demonstrate the fact that giving them another chance to repent and change would not make a difference.

It shows that without question, God is right to keep them from being made immortal. He has only one choice, and that is to destroy them, and this is done in mercy to the saved as well as to the wicked themselves.

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John3:17: 4) There's a detailed review of everyone's life, and all see that they have made themselves unworthy of eternal life. They also see that they would not be happy in heaven with God and the righteous where they wouldn't be able to have their favorite sins.

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pnattmbtc: Not just that they couldn't have their favorite sins, but the principles involved are completely different than their own. But, in general, I agree with this point.

OK, sure. I'm putting it as simply and directly as I can. They wouldn't be happy in heaven because they wouldn't be able to fulfill their sinful, self-centered desires. They would be miserable. Some of these people are happy only at being able to hurt people or animals.

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JOHN3: 17: 5) Christ pronounces the sentence of eternal death on them.

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pnattmbtc: As a recognition of reality. "Sin, when it is finished, brings forth death." "Death" "is the inevitable result of sin."

Yes, and God made it that way. It is not something that occurs all on its own, apart from the laws of the Creator.

Why does Christ pronounce the sentence of eternal death on the wicked? It is certainly an important thing to happen. God wouldn't do it that way if it didn't have great significance, right?

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pnattmbtc: It's not like those who have chosen sin could live if Christ were silent.

The rules or laws of the universe are not independent of the will and plan of God. Christ, after all, created all of them, and He continues to uphold those laws as well as the entire universe. Col. 1: 17.

Certainly they could live if God chose to make it that way.

God could have made the universe in such a way that sin would not result in eternal death. Gen. 3: 22-24 shows this. It is God's choice for the universe to be this way. God drove out the man from the Garden because God does not want sinners and sin to be immortalized. I'm glad He did. It proves to me how wise and loving God is. Imagine if God had allowed Satan or Adam to be immortal, not subject to death. Instead he created both with the capability of dying and of being destroyed.

So while it is true that the wicked could not live with Christ, God clearly could have made a planet (sort of like a huge prison) for all the wicked and then kept them there for eternity, away from all the rest of the universe. God won't do this, though, because he respects human freedom and because it would immortalized sin and rebellion, and in this way defeat the purpose of Christ's atonement (at-one-ment).

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JOHN3:17: 6) After the sentence of death, God does absolutely nothing to see that the sentence of death is carried out, but He simply withdraws Himself and observes the wicked.

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pnattmbtc: This seems to suppose that sin is innocuous.

It may "seem" so but it doesn't. I don't believe sin is innocuous at all.

What my statement supposes is that God is actively opposed to sin and to those who insist on holding onto, or cherishing, their sins. He cannot destroy sin without also destroying the wicked who refuse to give it up. God resepcts their decision and takes it seriously. He will not force them to separate sin from themselves, any more than He forced Satan to give it up; but once Satan got settled permenantly into His rebellion against God, God expelled him from heaven. In the same way, He will destroy both Satan and the wicked once they prove that they will never change. God did the same with the wicked at the flood, with the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, with the wicked nations whom He commanded Israel to destroy, and with king Saul.

God loves righteousness and hates sin because of the destruction that sin causes in His universe. There is certainly nothing wrong with God's destroying a destroyer.

If there was a mad dog (sin) killing a mother's children, wouldn't she be right to put an end to the dog? Who would say the mother is showing that she is as evil as the dog?

Satan is the mad dog. God is right to destroy Him. Satan has infected billions with his madness. God will destroy these also, and He does it out of love for the whole universe, including those incurably infected with sin.

But sin is not only an infection but it is rebellion against God and against His laws and His government. Therefore the justice of God requires that the "full penalty of the law be visited and the demands of justice be met" (GC 673). This does not happen without God's intervention. The wicked merely passing into oblivion is not visiting the full penalty of the law of God or meeting the demands of justice.

On the basis of what I read in the Bible and SOP, I believe that the majority of humanity will not suffer but will quickly be as if they had never lived. But the majority of humanity will not be saved, and many of the lost will suffer long for their wicked deeds. One cannot deny this without denying the statements of the Bible and Ellen White.

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JOHN3: 17: He takes no active part in the punishment against Satan or any of the wicked.

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pnattmbtc: If you read what I wrote, it is the process you are describing in step 4 which causes the suffering of the wicked. God is obviously involved in that, so I don't know where you're getting the idea that God is not involved.

Yes, I agree that God is involved in that, but I believe if we are consistent in our reasoning in the Scriptures, we will conclude that God is involved in the entire process, including the sending of fire down from heaven to consume them. At least that is the clear language of Scripture.

What is going to cause someone without a conscience to suffer for their sins "organically"?

Why don't the wicked simply commit a quick and painless suicide? Why do they continue to undergo agony of conscience?

I think it's important to remember that many of these people don't even love themselves and have no respect for life. Many never even wanted to live forever. So what is going to make them have sorrow for their sins and wish they could live forever at that time? Will the Holy Spirit be sent to convict them of their sins when it is too late to reform anyway? Isn't the Holy Spirit withdrawn from them? If so, why do they feel such agony over their sins?

And why don't they die quickly?

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JOHN3:17: Contrary to the testimony of both Scripture and the SOP, no fire comes down from God out of heaven.

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pnattmbtc: I've never said this. Not only this, but I've actually denied that I've said this many times now. It's rather frustrating to be on page 40 of a thread and have to keep denying statements like this.

What I've said is I disagree with the idea that God sets people on fire for the purpose of causing them to "suffer torture" as punishment.

Your last sentence concedes that God does indeed set Satan and the wicked on fire, but you deny that this setting on fire is for the purpose of making them suffer as punishment for their sins.

Are you saying that God sends fire from Himself out of heaven to fall on the wicked without intending it to punish them or burn them up? What would be the purpose of sending fire from heaven if not to punish and consume them?

The only way around this is to say that God does not send real fire or to say that God does not realize that real fire will destroy people. I don't believe you can support either one of these views by the Bible. The first cannot be supported because in every instance where the Bible refers to God sending fire from heaven, it can be proven that it's talking about real fire: the case of Sodom (Jude 7); the case of Elijah's confrontation with the priests of Baal (1 Kings 18: 38); the fire that fell from God out of heaven on the representative of Ahab and his fifty men (2 Kings 1: 12, 14); and the fire that fell from God out of heaven and consumed the burnt offering and sacrifices at Solomon's temple (2 Chron. 7: 1, 3; cf. Lev. 9: 24).

Can you think of any other verses which describe fire coming from God out of heaven and consuming anything when it was not actual fire? Let me know. I think I've listed them all.

Now Job 1: 16 also mentions fire that fell from God and burned up some people, but it was not really from God. Notice that the writer of the narrative is not saying it, but it is only the view of a man reporting the event to Job.

One other instance of fire from God that kills people is found in Lev. 10: 2, but that also appears to have been real fire.

The same with the fire mentioned on MT Sinai in Exodus 19: 18; and when the fire of the Lord consumed some people in the camp of Israel in Numbers 11: 1-3. Verse 2 here shows without question that it was literal fire. ("Consumed" as used in Lev.10: 2 and Numbers doesn't necessarily mean that the fire burned up the entire bodies of the Israelies; cf. Lev. 10:2 and 5.Here it means that the fire "killed" Nadab and Abihu, as the Amplified Versin and many other translations render it.)

The point of all the above is that in all of the instances where the Bible speaks of fire coming from God out of heaven, it is referring to real fire, so that it is all the more certain that the fire described in Rev. 20: 9 is also real fire. (Compare Ezekiel 38: 2, 6, where God says He will pour out fire on Gog and Magog, who represent all the wicked nations which war against God and His people.)

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JOHN3:17: The wicked all die willingly and on their own, apart from the will and activity of God to make it occur.

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pnattmbtc: I've not said anything like this, except I'd agree with the will of God part. That is, it's not God's will that the wicked suffer or die, but their own decisions lead to this. However, as to the rest of this, I've not said anything like this nor does it make sense to me. How could their be a judgment without activity on God's part?

Of course it was not God's will that the wicked suffer and die before the wicked make their final and permenant decision to rebel against God, but it is impossible to say that God's will remains the same toward them after they are sealed in their wicked ways. Surely God does not send fire to destroy them if He still wants them to live. Their decision to rebel cause God to have to destroy them utterly. They destroy themselves through their decisions, certainly, yet it's God who destroys both their soul and body in the gehenna of fire, exactly as Jesus said (Matt. 10: 28).

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JOHN3:17: Despite steps 1 through 5 that God has taken, God does not cause the death of the wicked but it results from natural, or "organic," causes.

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pnattmbtc: "Sin, when it is finished, brings forth death."

Yes, certainly sin causes eternal death. As I before said, all the laws of the universe originate with God, including the law which causes sin to result "organically" in death.

Ellen White: "I was shown that the seven last plagues... [signify] the wrath of God and the Lamb that causes the destruction or death of the wicked" (EW 52).

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JOHN3: 17: God is a passive observer of the natural, organic processes which cause the death of Satan and his wicked followers.

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pnattmbtc: How could God be a passive observer? I don't see how this could make sense.

I mean that God takes no action which leads directly to the final destruction of the wicked. This is what I understand you to mean: that God is not respondible for the final destruction of the wicked in the fires that the Bible says will occur after the Great White Throne Judgment, when Jesus pronounces judges upon the wicked.

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pnattmbtc: Did you read what I posted from Ty? I can repost it if not. Maybe I'll do so anyway.

I did, yes, but I'm going to go back and re-read it, and I'll reply to it directly. I like and respect Ty Gibson, but of course I don't necessarily agree with him on everything. I love and respect Graham Maxwell personally and as a teacher, but I don't agree with him on everything, either. I do consider him a great man and scholar, and I take what he says seriously. I enjoy listening to him on tapes as well as in person. I look at a person's evidence and argument and try not to be swayed by how I feel about them personally.

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JOHN3:17: My question is, why would God go through steps 1 thru 5 to assure that the wicked receive their just rewards but then stop all involvement in their deaths before the sentence He Himself pronounces is carried out?

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pnattmbtc: Your question seems to be founded upon the idea that sin is innocuous.

I don't believe sin is innocuous. No one who reads the Bible carefully and understands it could believe that. Being in opposition to God is always harmful, although it usually doesn't appear to be. Some people don't reap the ill results of sin in this life, except that they die; something that is discussed in the book of Job; but the wicked don't ordinarily view death as a result of sin. For them, death is just something you have to do sooner or later, kind of like paying taxes and aging.

See Mal. 3: 14, 15: "You [people] have said, 'It is useless to serve God, and what profit is it if we keep His ordinances and walk gloomily and as if in mourning apparel before the Lord of hosts? And now we consider the proud and arrogant to be happy and favored; evildoers are exalted and prosper; yes, and when they test God, they escape unpunished."

What is the Lord's answer to people who recognize that sin often goes completely unpunished in this life?

God's answer is the final destruction of the wicked. He says, "THEN shall you return and discern between the rightous and the wicked, between him who serves God and him who does not serve him."

And when will that occur?

The answer is found in the very next verse: "Because, look! the day comes that shall burn like an overn, and all the proud and arrogant, and yes, all that do wickedly and are lawless, shall be stubble; the day that comes shall burn them up, SAYS THE LORD OF HOSTS... And you sahll tread down the lawless and wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, SAYS THE LORD OF HOSTS." Mal. 4: 1, 3.

Ellen White: "... God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it [and did do it] in strict justice. WHO WILL SAY THAT GOD WILL NOT DO WHAT HE SAYS HE WILL DO?" (12 MR 209; 10 MR 265)

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pnattmbtc: The idea seems to be that sin doesn't cause suffering or death, so God has to cause that to happen.

Yes, it does but only because made the world in such a way that this is the consequence of sin. And as I said, not all people suffer because of sin. I know many people who are happy in their sin. This is not to say that sin does not cause suffering and death. But it means that the "organic" suffering and death of people does not meet the demands of justice nor visit the full penalty of the law. This eventuality requires the intervention of the Judge of all the world to visit the full penalty of the law on Satan and sin and fulfill the demands of justice. It will take the intervention of the Judge of all the world to visit the full penalty of the law on Satan and sin and fulfill the demands of justice. If it didn't require what God does, we can be sure God wouldn't do it. He doesn't do anything unnecessarily or haphazardly, nor, for the matter of that, arbitrarily.

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Sin is founded on the principle of selfishness, which can do no other than lead to suffering and death. "Sin, when it is finished, brings forth death."

Yes, I agree. But as said before, God constructed the universe that way, because He is very wise and loving. But the kind of suffering and death that takes place after the Great White Throne Judgment, wouldn't happen without God's intervention and positive activity against Satan and sin. Unless God stepped in and performed a "miracle" the wicked wouldn't be resurrected, and surely they wouldn't suffer on account of their deeds.

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What if sin isn't innocuous?

Sin is certainly NOT innocuous, and what the Bible teaches about God's destruction of the wicked and of sin does not suppose that sin is innocuous. God destroys Satan and sin and the wicked because it is NOT innocuous but very harmful indeed. It hurts the moral creatures He's made. It is also a rebellion against His government and laws-- and for this reason, "organic" suffering is not sufficient, but sin requires punishment and justice. As Ellen White says, "In all the Bible, God is presented not only as a Being of mercy and benevolence, but a God OF STRICT AND IMPARTIAL JUSTICE."

"The One who has stood as our Intercessor; who hears all penitential prayers and confessions; who is represented with a rainbow, the symbol of grace and love, encircling His head, is soon to cease His work in the heavenly sanctuary. GRACE AND MERCY WILL THEN DESCEND FROM THE THRONE, AND JUSTICE WILL TAKE THEIR PLACE. HE FOR WHOM HIS PEOPLE HAVE LOOKED WILL ASSUME HIS RIGHT-- THE OFFICE OF SUPREME JUDGE." LDE 240 (Please read all of pages 240 to 244 in Last Day Events.)

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What if it really does bring forth death?

Sin does bring forth death but that's because God made the universe that way. I'm glad He didn't make it any other way. It is not as if the laws of universe-- both physical and moral laws-- created themselves and run on their own. They do not. They require the continuous work of Christ who upholds the universe by His mighty word of power. Heb. 1: 2; Col. 1: 17.

[John317]

Even if God was present, Christ didn't know it....

Yes, God was very much present with Christ while he lay dying on the cross, but God hid himself from Christ, so that Christ could not know it.

The Psalms talk about God hiding, and one of Martin Luther's favorite titles for God was "the hidden God."

By the way, you can be sure that Jack Sequeira beleives that God was with Christ at the cross, and on the basis of Ellen White's writings. Ellen White was shown these events in vision. She actually saw the face of Christ-- saw Him sweating blood. She saw the Roman soldiers falling as if dead at the tomb when Jesus was resurrected.

It's true that in a sense the Father was also crucified with Christ because the Father was in the Son. John 14: 10. So we can say that the Father suffered through the agony of the cross along with His Son.

I agree with you that the Father did not die with Christ. Nor did Christ's divine nature die. Only Christ's humanity died. Deity, being immortal by nature, isn't subject to death.

One thing that God Himself cannot possibly do is will Himself into non-existence.

[John317]

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pnattmbtc, quoting Ty Gibson: Christianity is intended to be an ever-deepening journey into the heart of God, by which the beholding of His glory gradually transforms the believer into the same character likeness (2 Cor. 3:18). For those who persist in sin to the ruin of their inner capacity to discern and reflect God’s love, that fire of divine love which would have cleansed them will, on the day of final reckoning, ignite in their souls a destructive measure of shame and guilt. The glory of Him who is love will be more than the conscience can bear.

On the day of unveiled encounter, they will experience psychological and emotional meltdown in God’s immediate presence. “’For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up.’ Says the Lord of hosts,’ That will leave them neither root nor branch. But to you who fear My name [love My character] the Sun of Righteousness shall arise with healing in His wings [in the rays of light that emanate from Him]’ “(Malachi 4:1, 2, NKJC). Everyone will eventually meet God in all the radiance of His glorious love. Some will be consumed, while others are healed by the very same encounter.(Shades of Grace, by Ty Gibson)

I fully agree with the message about Christ being the revelation of the character of God. I don't believe the lines that I've set in red are supported by either Scripture or SOP. If you believe it's supported by clear statements in either authoritative source, please quote or give references.

I think I know why you believe those lines are supported by the Bible and the SOP, but I believe he is not taking things in their proper context. For instance, Ty says that the very same encounter heals some and consumes, or destroys, others. But it is not really the same encounter at all-- at least from the biblical viewpoint. God does not rain fire down on the righteous. They will be inside the city with Jesus at this time. But the Bible does most definitly and plainly say that God sends fire down from heaven on the wicked for the purpose of punishing and consuming them.

Ty writes as if there is no judgment in heaven during the 1000 years, when it is decided [determined] by Christ not only that they will die but how much they will suffer for their wicked deeds.

I do believe that when Christ comes, the wicked who are destroyed are really destroyed by their own choices; and in the same way, when the wicked are destroyed in the lake of fire, it will not be God's fault but their own. God will have done everything He could, short of forcing them to believe, which as we all agree, God will never do.

[John317]

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BobRyan:

There is no such thing as the magical-sin-god that "naturally" causes one's head to explode the instant they covet. your model seems to struggle with that basic concept for some reason.

So true! To think that all humans at the end will die out of sorrow for sin would beg the question why this would happen-- is it because God does something to force this sorrow out of them? Sorrow for sin requires a more or less sensitive conscience, and the wicked will not have one. And the only reason any of us have genuine sorrow for sin is due to work of the Holy Spirit.

Ellen White does say that Satan is "constrained" to confess that he's been wrong, but this is forced out of him by the overwhelming evidence presented. It is not something Satan does freely and of his own accord. Satan very quickly repents of this brief "repentance." The proof that Satan does not himself believe his own "confession" is that almost immediately afterward he tries to destroy the city of God. He still hates Christ with all the same passion that he always did.

This the same with all the rest of the wicked. All that really bothers them is that they are going to die. They have no true sorrow for sin. All they have at the end, then, is the knowledge that God is just, fair and loving, yet it's altogether too late for this knowledge to work true repentance in them.