Freedom - is liberty worth the price tag?

[karl]

Freedom is not free. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

So, what is it that freedom lovers consider worth protecting with their lives? Is it only freedom of speech? Freedom of worship?

What is the essence of freedom?

Janis Joplin sang "Freedom's just another word for nothin left to lose."

What is your definition and how would you go about protecting your version of freedom?

[karl]

KARL

to me freedom is being able to choose to

do things---go places---with out being stopped

or questioned.....

dgrimm60

OK

Your liberty to do as you choose requires that you be responsible. You must pay your own way. You must be responsible for your own safety. You must arrange your trips. You must make sure that you are not encroaching on the rights of others.

If we are going to be free, we must be intelligent, resourceful, diligent, careful, prepared. To the extent we depend upon others to do these things for us, we are not free, just as a child is not free from parental control.

[GreatLakesGramma]

The most important freedom to me is the freedom to be responsible for myself, make my own choices, and live with the results. That includes using whatever kind of health care I choose, regardless of whether the powers that be think it works or not. It isn't any of their business.

[abelisle]

The essence of freedom abides in my mind.

I will always be free, even if imprisoned.

You can kill my body but not my soul.

The vigilance I need to exercise is to think, think and think some more!

Alex

[karl]

The essence of freedom abides in my mind.

I will always be free, even if imprisoned.

You can kill my body but not my soul.

The vigilance I need to exercise is to think, think and think some more!

Alex

If that were the extent of freedom it would not need defending.

Do you think our nation's founders wasted their time and blood?

[karl]

The most important freedom to me is the freedom to be responsible for myself, make my own choices, and live with the results. That includes using whatever kind of health care I choose, regardless of whether the powers that be think it works or not. It isn't any of their business.

Some liberals would call your position self-centered.

I think it is selfLESS for people to work toward not being a burden on others. EGW calls it "a noble independence."

None who are able to labor should be taught to expect food and clothing and shelter free of cost. For their own sake, as well as for the sake of others, some way should be devised whereby they may return an equivalent for what they receive. Encourage every effort toward self-support. This will strengthen self-respect and a noble independence. And occupation of mind and body in useful work is essential as a safeguard against temptation.--MH 177 (1905)

[abelisle]

You asked a question.

Then you critiqued each response.

Are you looking for an answer that is for you politically correct?

This is in itself a violation of our freedom of expression - some would even say an invasion of our privacy of thought?

Alex

[phkrause]

You asked a question.

Then you critiqued each response.

Are you looking for an answer that is for you politically correct?

This is in itself a violation of our freedom of expression - some would even say an invasion of our privacy of thought?

Alex

Absolutely an excellent response. Seems like if the response is not to the liking it is not any good.

Karl you asked "Freedom - is liberty worth the price tag?" Let each individual give there response without being critised (sp) otherwise why would anyone want to answer. Personally at this moment it would be to be able to speak my mind and like Alex said not be critiqued for not giving the answer you are seeking.

pk

[karl]

You asked a question.

Then you critiqued each response.

Are you looking for an answer that is for you politically correct?

This is in itself a violation of our freedom of expression - some would even say an invasion of our privacy of thought?

Alex

I'm not looking for anything, Alex. This is a free exchange of thoughts. Can you not appreciate that?

Is there some other rule I don't know about here on CA? Is one not allowed to start a thread (this is my first) and then have back and forth comments about each other's posts without having some guy object?

How can it be a violation of anyone's freedom of expression for you to be able to write anything you please on this thread? I have not told anybody what they should think or write.

However, your statement above could easily be interpreted as a mentally coercive attempt to limit my freedom to respond to what is posted here.

Don't you respond to stuff that is posted on threads you start?

[karl]

Originally Posted By: abelisle

You asked a question.

Then you critiqued each response.

Are you looking for an answer that is for you politically correct?

This is in itself a violation of our freedom of expression - some would even say an invasion of our privacy of thought?

Alex

Absolutely an excellent response. Seems like if the response is not to the liking it is not any good.

Karl you asked "Freedom - is liberty worth the price tag?" Let each individual give there response without being critised (sp) otherwise why would anyone want to answer. Personally at this moment it would be to be able to speak my mind and like Alex said not be critiqued for not giving the answer you are seeking.

pk

Well, pardon me, you two.

Are you guys insisting on some unwritten CA etiquette rule here?

If I start a thread am I required to just ignore what people write?

No give and take?

If you insist on this, I am going to hold you to it on your own threads. This one is my first one.

No slack, eh?

[abelisle]

It just so happens that each of your critiques so far are negative admonitions that stymie any further exchange of ideas. Do you not see this? It's as if you are telling us how we should have answered your question.

The atmosphere for a friendlier discussion of ideas would have avoided your restructuring of our responses. And why would I want to limit you in any way? I don't even know you. And is this a rule on CA? Who am I to make rules here? I am simply a member of this forum as you are.

Maybe we can start over by more clearly defining the parameters of the discussion? Is the freedom you are speaking about connected to political realities in this country? Is the freedom philosophical in nature? Is this freedom theological in nature?

In most academic discussions, the moderator (you) seeks for understanding and possible synthesis not negative critiques that seem to realign the responses according to your way of thinking.

Alex (I always appreciate free expressions of thought)

[GreatLakesGramma]

Originally Posted By: GreatLakesGramma

The most important freedom to me is the freedom to be responsible for myself, make my own choices, and live with the results.

Some liberals would call your position self-centered.

[LifeHiscost]

If we are going to be free, we must be intelligent, resourceful, diligent, careful, prepared. To the extent we depend upon others to do these things for us, we are not free, just as a child is not free from parental control.

I am free to choose the Master of my future, which freedom comes from only one Master.

"And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”"John 8:32 NKJV

"Jesus saith unto him, I am...the truth.."

John 14:6 NKJV

"All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."Matthew 11:27 NKJV

JOY!!

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: GreatLakesGramma

The most important freedom to me is the freedom to be responsible for myself, make my own choices, and live with the results. That includes using whatever kind of health care I choose, regardless of whether the powers that be think it works or not. It isn't any of their business.

Some liberals would call your position self-centered.

I think it is selfLESS for people to work toward not being a burden on others. EGW calls it "a noble independence."

None who are able to labor should be taught to expect food and clothing and shelter free of cost. For their own sake, as well as for the sake of others, some way should be devised whereby they may return an equivalent for what they receive. Encourage every effort toward self-support. This will strengthen self-respect and a noble independence. And occupation of mind and body in useful work is essential as a safeguard against temptation.--MH 177 (1905)

Karl, what you are doing is known in internet parlance as "Baiting"....I recently took many people on this board to task for this rudeness, and I got a bit rude myself. If you want to avoid the encounter, my suggestion is to be patient and await others to respond.....

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

If we are going to be free, we must be intelligent, resourceful, diligent, careful, prepared. To the extent we depend upon others to do these things for us, we are not free, just as a child is not free from parental control.

I am free to choose the Master of my future, which freedom comes from only one Master.

"And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”"John 8:32 NKJV

Thank you, LHC. Absolutely our spiritual freedom is in knowing Christ.

Do you think this is the extent of the freedom that the Pilgrims were looking for when they landed on Plymouth Rock? Why would they risk so much for something they could have back home in Europe?

[GreatLakesGramma]

Originally Posted By: karl

Some liberals would call your position self-centered.

I think it is selfLESS for people to work toward not being a burden on others. EGW calls it "a noble independence."

Karl, what you are doing is known in internet parlance as "Baiting"....I recently took many people on this board to task for this rudeness, and I got a bit rude myself. If you want to avoid the encounter, my suggestion is to be patient and await others to respond.....

Actually, if you read Karl's response more carefully, he wasn't being negative at all toward what I said, only toward those who would pass judgment on my position as being self-centered.

[karl]

Karl, what you are doing is known in internet parlance as "Baiting"....I recently took many people on this board to task for this rudeness, and I got a bit rude myself. If you want to avoid the encounter, my suggestion is to be patient and await others to respond.....

What's the rule, Neil?

No response until..... when?

Let's get the Thread Police doing a post-to-post search for correctness.

[phkrause]

Thank you, LHC. Absolutely our spiritual freedom is in knowing Christ.

Do you think this is the extent of the freedom that the Pilgrims were looking for when they landed on Plymouth Rock? Why would they risk so much for something they could have back home in Europe?

But they couldn't have this back home in Europe, that is why they came to a new land, but than what did they do? They did the same to others, until they separated state and church.

pk

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

Thank you, LHC. Absolutely our spiritual freedom is in knowing Christ.

Do you think this is the extent of the freedom that the Pilgrims were looking for when they landed on Plymouth Rock? Why would they risk so much for something they could have back home in Europe?

But they couldn't have this back home in Europe, that is why they came to a new land, but than what did they do? They did the same to others, until they separated state and church.

pk

What would keep them from choosing their Lord and Master in Europe? What would keep them from knowing the TRUTH and having the TRUTH set them free?

[LifeHiscost]

When the USDA decided to set standards for organic foods, they tried to do away with genuine organic foods by allowing all the very things we use organic foods in order to avoid, to be used and called organic. We didn't let them get away with that either. Now they're sneaking things in, little by little. And by the time they finally reach their goal, I'll be growing all my own food, plus enough to share with anyone who is in need, and it WILL be organic. And I'll be saving my own seeds, so they can't sneak any genetically modified abominations past me. They can just go soak their heads.

And we also have the freedom, at least for a little while, to have an "in your face", attitude. I'm not sure how society will continue when that reaches the saturation point, although where it is worldwide is a good indication already.

"...and the wisdom from above, first, indeed, is pure, then peaceable, gentle, easily entreated, full of kindness and good fruits, uncontentious, and unhypocritical"James 3:17 YLT

JOY!!

[karl]

You also asked how we would protect our version of freedom. I had to think about that for awhile. I'm already doing it. I ignore those who try to control my choices. When the state of Michigan was doing its utmost to put an end to home births, I had my daughter at home anyway. When they were jailing homeschooling parents, I homeschooled my children anyway. There were enough of us doing the same that they finally gave up on both counts.

When the USDA decided to set standards for organic foods, they tried to do away with genuine organic foods by allowing all the very things we use organic foods in order to avoid, to be used and called organic. We didn't let them get away with that either. Now they're sneaking things in, little by little. And by the time they finally reach their goal, I'll be growing all my own food, plus enough to share with anyone who is in need, and it WILL be organic. And I'll be saving my own seeds, so they can't sneak any genetically modified abominations past me. They can just go soak their heads.

(Applause)

I want YOU as my neighbor in heaven, GLG. I'd love to be neighbors right now, but you're a long way away. The government will be no help to us when the crises come. It can't even handle what it needs to do now, much less what it needs to do under more trying circumstances. We need to be preparing now to help ourselves and others when the crises hit. Sounds like you are doing this. God bless you.

Dependency is not freedom (except for dependency on God.)

[karl]

Maybe we can start over by more clearly defining the parameters of the discussion? Is the freedom you are speaking about connected to political realities in this country? Is the freedom philosophical in nature? Is this freedom theological in nature?

There are no rules for the discussion on this thread, Alex. They would be antithetical to a discussion about freedom.

What value do you see in all aspects of freedom? How can you get or keep this value?

I do not consider your internal thought freedom to be without value. There have been attempts to limit even that freedom with brainwashing.

How can we help to ensure that government will not have the power to attempt to take, by brainwashing, even the internal thought freedoms we enjoy?

I think the entire country has been brainwashed to a certain extent by media and by state-controlled "education." Application of the term democracy to our US Government is a case in point. We are not a democracy, yet most people believe we are a democracy simply because this lie has been repeated so many times.

Many signatories of the Declaration of Independence and other architects of our nation were vehement opponents of democracy. One of them was John Adams, who in his laborious contribution warned that democratic systems of government had historically always ended in tyranny and chaos.

The falsehood that the US is a democracy is bolstered when we confuse the procedure of democracy (effective to select representatives), with the idea of democracy as a system of government. The Founders conceived the democratic system as merely a procedure to elect themselves a constitutional Republic, which government they instituted to maintain their most precious value, freedom.

[GreatLakesGramma]

Originally Posted By: GreatLakesGramma

When the USDA decided to set standards for organic foods, they tried to do away with genuine organic foods by allowing all the very things we use organic foods in order to avoid, to be used and called organic. We didn't let them get away with that either. Now they're sneaking things in, little by little. And by the time they finally reach their goal, I'll be growing all my own food, plus enough to share with anyone who is in need, and it WILL be organic. And I'll be saving my own seeds, so they can't sneak any genetically modified abominations past me. They can just go soak their heads.

And we also have the freedom, at least for a little while, to have an "in your face", attitude.

I actually do not live my choices in anyone's face. It just sounds like it when I start talking (or writing) about the way the government is interfering more and more in our lives, taking away more and more of our freedom. Then I get ticked off and say things like that (and mean every bit of it). But in real life, I just quietly live my life as I feel called to, as if they weren't there at all.

[jasd]

QR frame:

I think the optimal format for the distillation of truths is adversarial – as in adversarial dialog. Sometimes there is too much energy invested in ‘rules of encounter’, as it were, which tend towards the censorious.

Even Gd is adversarial, “I am your adversary.” Quite an admission, given that the default description for Satan is – adversary.

/ Freedom is the freedom to use your Scripto to write upon your palm – “Bite me!” ...without beig bothered by flat-lined idjits.

/ Freedom, also, is owning a ‘carry permit’ and the biggest equalizer that won’t rip your trousers from your belt with its sheer weight.

All other rights re liberty stem from these two...

Re those American citizens who receive ‘benefits’ from the govt: why not? Every one of us take every advantage provided by a fine reading/interpretation of the tax codes. ‘Benefits’ are the poor man’s

tax loopholes.

I’ve never heard anyone –ever– complain about our giving Egypt multiple billion$ of dollar$ to sustain a peace with the State of Israel. If there are no complaints there, it is hardly justifiable to complain about one of our own ‘disadvantaged’ receiving a ‘tax loophole’ for him or herself, is there? jasd 2.0 (2010)

(incidentally, the over, overwhelming number of Egyptians – hate/despise America/Americans. I favor letting them stew in their own juices {let it begin there} and save those billion$ of dollar$ to pay down our debt. Let State of Israel utilize one of its 2-300 nukes on Egypt – should it prove necessary)

Sometimes there is a great divide between freedom and peace.

[karl]

Re those American citizens who receive ‘benefits’ from the govt: why not? Every one of us take every advantage provided by a fine reading/interpretation of the tax codes. ‘Benefits’ are the poor man’s tax loopholes.

I’ve never heard anyone –ever– complain about our giving Egypt multiple billion$ of dollar$ to sustain a peace with the State of Israel. If there are no complaints there, it is hardly justifiable to complain about one of our own ‘disadvantaged’ receiving a ‘tax loophole’ for him or herself, is there? jasd 2.0 (2010)

I've certainly complained about it. I am constantly on my Rep and Sen to stop all the foreign aid, business aid, and other handouts. It is rare that they do any good. They prop up corrupt governments. They support unsustainable business practices. They encourage governments, businesses and individuals in doing things that are good neither for them or for us.

I certainly don't blame people for taking the handouts. Free "anything" is hard to resist, even when taking it harms the recipient. I blame the thieves (politicians) who see themselves as Santa Claus and keep giving away the taxes of hard-working folks. These kinds of boondoggles constitute a penalty for working hard. They are demoralizing to the people who are the backbone of America.

Remind me to tell you the story of the wild pigs some time.