Freedom - is liberty worth the price tag?

[jasd]

>>...our govt used to encourage our manufacturers to leave us a nation of ‘information’ processors. Like how much ‘information’ is in involved flipping burgers, greeting customers, etc – ‘puter technologies aside.<<

Or, should I have instead said, “Service-based economy?”

Oy!

[jasd]

>>I thought this was worth remembering today:

1945 U.S. Marines raise flag on Iwo Jima, famous photo and statue..<<

Indeed!—I’d not known...

>>My uncle was there.<<

Gratitude and honours...

...only a bit more than 40% of our Pacific Theater POWs returned home at the end of WWII – with an elite segment still continuing to war with us; that said, the majority of the Japanese population apparently like Americans {witness the number of American flags flown there: more than in our own cities}

More than 90% of our POWs remained alive to be returned by the Germans...

Hope your uncle made it back home.

[doug yowell]

>>I thought this was worth remembering today:

1945 U.S. Marines raise flag on Iwo Jima, famous photo and statue..<<

Thanks for the heads up, jasd. My dad got a purple heart there. 4th Marine Division. Landed on Blue Beach. I've got it now, along with some other stuff he had left over when he came back. Flags of Our Fathers anyone?

[karl]

Originally Posted By: jasd

>>I thought this was worth remembering today:

1945 U.S. Marines raise flag on Iwo Jima, famous photo and statue..<<

Thanks for the heads up, jasd. My dad got a purple heart there. 4th Marine Division. Landed on Blue Beach. I've got it now, along with some other stuff he had left over when he came back. Flags of Our Fathers anyone?

O'er the land of the free

And the home of the brave.

Wonder how much longer that will have any meaning?

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: GreatLakesGramma

The most important freedom to me is the freedom to be responsible for myself, make my own choices, and live with the results. That includes using whatever kind of health care I choose, regardless of whether the powers that be think it works or not. It isn't any of their business.

Some liberals would call your position self-centered.

[Neil D]

The most important freedom to me is the freedom to be responsible for myself, make my own choices, and live with the results. GreatLakesGramma

Originally Posted By: karl

Some liberals would call your position self-centered.

Let them. I couldn't care less. That's just an ignorant response (theirs, not yours). Being responsible means I'm not expecting society or anyone else to bail me out if I make poor choices. I deal with it myself.

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: olger

Get the government out of people's lives and turn the free market spirit loose !! Worked for Ronnie, and it works for me !

g

I agree with your sentiments, Olger, but how do we educate people to understand that the government shouldn't be there in the first place.

It is like heating up a pan of water with a frog in it. The frog just goes to sleep. Same has happened with the populace. Most people have only learned the state-controlled version of American history and thus do not understand that the government is the doberman that must be kept chained to the fence where it belongs - protecting us, but not running our lives.

Apparently, you guys fell asleep during history class regarding the "Robber Barrons"...they insisted on "free market" economy also...and they got greedy and they became 'robber barrons'. They called for "free markets" and all the while controled the markets.T hey did it by manipulating government, fighting legislation to improve things. This is known in current parlence as "goverment interventions" or as you put it "government control."

Maybe the workers who died in the coal mines,due to a lack of safety conditions, would remind us that fair wages and fair working conditions were possible if brought about by government writing in laws for the worker safety...and the unions who kept these things before a public and kept the striking to get better wages.

Even in our day, there are sweatshops IN THE US, that take illegal workers, make them work for dimes on the dollar so that you can have poorly made clothes...

So when government argues for a better playing field [aka "competition"] and safer working conditions, you guys get all upset at the governmental control over business...And you can't see that it was the lack of enforcement during the bush years that lead to our current conditions.....

Wowzers!

[karl]

Apparently, you guys fell asleep during history class regarding the "Robber Barrons"...they insisted on "free market" economy also...and they got greedy and they became 'robber barrons'. Perhaps the workers who died in the coal mines, due to a lack of safety conditions, would remind us that fair wages and fair working conditions were possible if brought about by government writing in laws for the worker safety...and the unions who kept these things before a public and kept the striking to get better wages.

Even in our day, there are sweatshops IN THE US, that take illegal workers, make them work for dimes on the dollar so that you can have poorly made clothes...

So when goverment argues for a better playing field [aka "competition"] and safer working conditions, you guys get all upset at the govermental control over business...And you can't see that it was the lack of enforcement during the bush years that lead to our current conditions.....

Wowzers!

Neil, help me understand why you are so irked about freedom. Have you or someone you know been forced to work against your will? That would NOT be freedom.

Are you arguing that because there were some rich men (robber barons) who manipulated their employees in the past, we should not have freedom today? Is that your point?

Socialism has much more abuse-potential than capitalism, because with capitalism you still have freedom. You can move or change jobs or do whatever you need to do to better your situation. You don't HAVE to let a robber-baron make you work in his sweatshop. You can if you want to, but it is never mandatory.

If you are an illegal or in some kind of underworld situation that someone can force you to work for little or nothing, WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH THE GROWING SOCIALISM IN AMERICA? If it is illegal, it is illegal, and the police will do their best to take care of it. And if people are here illegally, they WILL be taken advantage of by crooks. There is little honor among criminals and illegals are criminals. You cannot pass laws to control people who just laugh at the law anyway. Laws are only followed by law-abiding people. If they are law abiding, they don't need many laws. If they are not law-abiding, more laws don't help. We keep passing them, though.

This is why God's government is the ultimate. Ten Laws.

But we don't want those laws anymore in this country. We want socialism, right?

[phkrause]

Neil I'm a liberal and I don't think that statement by GLG is self centered at all. I guess I don't fit the stupid label garbage. Never have and never will. People that love does labels, wow just incredible. I guess without labels nobody knows what to do with you.

pk

[Neil D]

Neil, help me understand why you are so irked about freedom. Have you or someone you know been forced to work against your will?

[Neil D]

Neil I'm a liberal and I don't think that statement by GLG is self centered at all. I guess I don't fit the stupid label garbage. Never have and never will. People that love does labels, wow just incredible. I guess without labels nobody knows what to do with you.

pk

Well, Karl thought that some liberal would think that.....I didn't think it was all that self centered either...just limited or narrowed to stuff that she was worried about....And I showed that her ideas were more progressive than conservative....And I know that some would disgree with that last statement....

[phkrause]

Neil I must say that I agree with all that you've said.

pk

[Neil D]

Thank you PK....

....and did you notice, I did it without malice....

[phkrause]

Thank you PK....

....and did you notice, I did it without malice....

Yes I did, a lot less than the other way around I'd say. Because from the way its worded, if you don't believe the other side its implied that you are an idiot. At least that's the way I'm hearing it.

pk

[Neil D]

The problem with the other side is that when there is facts and figures supporting the position, they usually go into a mode that I don't like....it's called "shoot the messenger"....and ad homien attacks are usually forthcoming....

We'll see if there is such a thing as a "civil discussion" over politics on the townhall forum...So far, this thread will go to 'politics forum' if and when the moderator exercises judgment...and which I have no access nor do I care to....

[karl]

I don't even know where to begin, Neil. You are sounding more shrill with each post.

Let's take some easy questions.

Do you think big government is better than small government? Yes or no.

Do you think government produces what you need? If so, what? And what percentage of your income are you willing to pay for it?

Do you think government should control how you invest your money or time? Yes or No.

Do you think private property should be taxed? If so, why?

If the government can arbitrarily set the minimum wage at $5.35 an hour, why not set it at $200.00 an hour? Wouldn't this improve the lot of the poor and working class? To what degree should the employer be free to determine the value of labor? Or is freedom only for the poor?

Is it truly and logically possible to be governed by our consent without ultimately being given the resort of arms? How is it possible that a human can honestly and legitimately consent without owning the means to refuse?

What paragraph(s) of the Constitution outline the responsibilities of the Department of Education?

If our government, as a constitutional republic, has no moral superiority over other, more socialist governments, why do we spend public monies on maintaining memorials to those that have died in order to preserve and spread our way of life? Should we no longer fund these projects?

Do you understand that our social welfare programs are bankrupting the country and that you are on record as being in favor of expanding them?

Do you understand that you are willing to make the hard working citizens of The United States pay more taxes for your liberal "fixes?"

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

what you don't realize is that the current financial robber barons created the currrent mess we are living in due to conservative Bush policies.

Bush, as President, could only sign or veto bills into legislation. Those bills were coming from a Demoncratic Congress. I get tired of the "let's blame Bush for everything" blabber. That doesn't solve anything, and it's not true either, IMHO. He did the best he could with what he had to work with. And that's what every President does.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: Neil

what you don't realize is that the current financial robber barons created the currrent mess we are living in due to conservative Bush policies.

Bush, as President, could only sign or veto bills into legislation. Those bills were coming from a Demoncratic Congress. I get tired of the "let's blame Bush for everything" blabber. That doesn't solve anything, and it's not true either, IMHO. He did the best he could with what he had to work with. And that's what every President does.

I can't agree with you more Pam. You make a very good point.

But Clinton actually worked very well with the republican congress that he had to work with. And I'd say the same for Bush and the democratic party.

pk

[Neil D]

I don't even know where to begin, Neil. You are sounding more shrill with each post.

Let's take some easy questions.

[GreatLakesGramma]

I agree also. In fact, even when the president's party is in the majority in Congress, that still doesn't make him responsible for what they do. I believe Obama meant it when he promised that no one would be forced to buy medical insurance under health care reform. But I knew better than to believe that HE would be the one to decide what health care reform would actually look like. And I was also quite sure that if Congress included coercion in the reform, he would sign it anyway. And so long as "health care reform" includes a requirement that everyone buy medical insurance whether they want it or not, I will continue to pray that God will bring their plans to nothing.

I have completely rejected drug treatment for chronic health issues. Except for antibiotics, drugs do not cure disease. They only mask symptoms, without addressing the root cause of the problem. Plus, they add new health problems to the mix, called side effects, some of them worse than the original disease. Just ask my neighbor. Oh, you can't. She's dead - killed by her arthritis medicine. One minute she was walking across the room, just as normal as you please, the next, she was dead on the floor.

Or maybe you could ask my mother's friend. He was unresponsive, on a respirator, with doctors suggesting to his wife that it was time to pull the plug. Then she remembered his problems started right after he started taking a new heart drug. The hospital cardiologist took him off it, and he walked out alive.

I prefer to stick with the issues nature deals me, thank you very much, and to find natural means of dealing with them. But if Congress passes coercive health care reform, they will confiscate my entire health care budget, and then some, for insurance that won't pay any of my health care costs, thus depriving me completely of any health care at all, and also leaving me with less grocery money, making it even more difficult to buy genuinely healthy food.

Is this what you want, Neil? So that you can have the health care you choose, whether you can afford it or not, you want me, and others like me, to be deprived of the health care we choose?

[GreatLakesGramma]

For the record, I am not opposed to health care reform, only to health care reform that requires everyone to buy insurance.

[GreatLakesGramma]

But I also don't trust the government, regardless of which party is in control, to pass any health care reform that will actually increase efficiency and availability, eliminate waste and fraud, and cut costs. Time and time again they have proven themselves totally incapable of achieving any of those objectives.

[Neil D]

Is this what you want, Neil? So that you can have the health care you choose, whether you can afford it or not, you want me to be deprived of the health care I choose?

[GreatLakesGramma]

Don't hold your breath, Neil. If you believe they will actually achieve that, I have a really nice bridge to sell you between Michigan's peninsulas. The "choices" they have in mind have nothing to do with natural medicine.

[GreatLakesGramma]

Where are you getting these ideas?????? FoxNews????

From the government's past performance, regardless of which party has been in power.