Was the Earth always on this axis?

[abelisle]

As we know, the Earth is presently on a 23.5 degree axis. My "original" thought is that the Earth was once on a 0 degree axis with the whole planet in a relatively temperate zone and then a catastrophe occurred which caused the Earth to be on its present axis.

This catastrophe, I believe (original thoughts, right) was caused by a large meteor impacting the earth in the Yucatan peninsula area where Belize is presently. (might also help towards an explanation for the sudden disappearance of the Mayans). This dramatic shift in the Earth's axis would explain why we find frozen mammoths in Siberia with unchewed food in their mouths and evidence of temperate zone flora beneath the ice caps.

This could also explain a dynamic shift in tectonic plates that could have caused a flood and possible worldwide earthquakes, volcanic eruptions with their secondary and tertiary effects causing the extinction of large animals like dinosaurs and most of the antediluvian population.

I also think the firmament was possibly a distinct solidlike covering in the inner atmosphere that held back a significant amount of water. Hence the Biblical torrents of rain coming from above and below.

Before you rip my theory to shreds, please remember this is a forum for "original" ideas. I can prove none of what I said but after years of thinking about this stuff, this is the best I can come up with.

Alex

[The Searcher]

Dear Friends,

The earth has pretty much been at its present tilt. There is evidence though that, at some point in the past, the earth was temporaly tilted from it 23.5 degree tilt. The earth has been recovering from that catastrophe. And it was probably caused by a large group of asteroids hitting the earth simultaneously in mass. I would suggest it was the cause for the flood and all which were the result of the flood and since.

Sincerely,

The Seeker

[Outta Here]

I like your thoughts, Alex. This morning, I've been considering the effect that the New Jerusalem will have on the "tilt". Wondering if it's just the missing piece that we need to align us as God originally purposed. (Double and triple entendres intended.) Also, how is it that the tree of life is now in heaven and not on earth? Is it that perhaps when God took it back--so to speak--that it misaligned the earth? And, did He do it knowingly?

Good thoughts!

[SivartM]

This is somewhat unrelated and not quite original, but I once heard an Adventist astronomer theorize that the asteroid belt is the remnants of a planet that was destroyed around the time of the flood.

Anyway...

I think the earth was originally largely the same climate all over, but it was tilted during the flood.

I'm not sure about the water canopy theory... how would they have seen the sun, moon, and stars clearly if there were a massive ocean miles above them before the flood?

[Outta Here]

Maybe the ocean was a little further than the sun and moon!

[SivartM]

Then how did it fall during the flood?

Or is it still there? O_O

[abelisle]

I think the firmament was like nothing we presently know now. Some have surmised that it was crystallized metal only a few inches thick or a translucent canopy made of materials that allowed visibility of the heavenly bodies?

There's quite a bit of firmament talk in Genesis. But the narrative specifics are left for us to speculate about, which we are doing here. Exactly how all of this happened and are there any remnants left for us to research, I don't know.

But I do know I like rolling all of this around in my head from time to time. And that time is now. I guess all this climate change stuff has acted as a catalyst for me?

Alex (must google "firmament")

[SivartM]

I always thought the firmament was just the sky, and on the second day of creation a lot of water evaporated into the atmosphere... or something. *shrugs*

By the way, Aubrey, your idea about the Tree of Life made me think of the mythological World Tree.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_tree

[phkrause]

I kind of remember at some point in life a minister saying that the tilt or axis of the earth did change after the Flood. Not sure who this was, but I'm guessing it was one of the pastors that I had back in my teenage years. Or it could have been Doug Batchelor? But not sure.

pk

[Outta Here]

Yeah dgrimm60, I know you're right. I was really thinking aloud: did He do it knowingly, with the purpose of misaligning our planet, of setting us askew and off-balance? It was a rhetorical question.

[Bravus]

Umm... only one flaw: an earth that was not tilted on its axis would *not* have a nice temperate climate all over. It would have no seasons, and would therefore consist of large zones of permanent deep-freeze around the poles, quite narrow temperate zones (much narrower than now) and a broad zone of constant hellish heat around the equator. However it got that way, it's precisly our tilt that makes life on earth as pleasant is it is over as much of the earth's surface as it is...

[Outta Here]

Yeah...but, it might have been different at the origin of creation. I mean, you know, I wasn't there. It might have been temperate all over the earth. It's fun to guess and to think of the possibilities. Even if they do sound absurd to the current trend of reasoning.

[Dr. Shane]

The firmament is the big mystery. What it was and what it did we will never know until heaven's gates.

[abelisle]

Bravus, you might be right, what do I know? I'm just speculating wildly but the way EGW describes the antediluvian world in P&P it seemed to be topographically and temperature-wise different than it is now?

And now that I mention this, I'll never forget Dr. Geraty (famed Adventist archeologist) if anyone has found artifacts from the antediluvian period and he answered "No" with a very pregnant pause that made me read between the lines that all of this has either been intentionally shrouded from modern man or it lies within the realm of things we categorize as "mystery?"

Alex

[abelisle]

Check this out:

. Check out this link:

http://www.sentex.net/~tcc/fsearch.html

Alex

[Bravus]

I didn't mean to put a damper on the discussion, at all. I think it's just that we invoke things as dramatic as an axis tipp a bit too lightly in talking about the Flood. And what's all this stuff with asteroids? Wasn't the Flood meant to be a divine miracle? If it was just a natural disaster that was kind of post hoc ascribed to God's action, that changes the meaning of the whole thing! (I have the same objection to people who explain away the crossing of the Red Sea as a tidal/wind event, the manna as acacia gum and so on... explaining miracles explains them away!)

[Bravus]

Yes, that's it. A miracle kind of by definition has to be a supernatural event. If it's merely a natural event misinterpreted, it's not a miracle at all. Then Jesus was not really dead and wasn't really raised, and as Paul said, we are 'of all people most miserable'.

[Tom Wetmore]

I would understand a miracle to also include divine manipulation of natural laws and events. That we do not know of supernatural laws and supernatural means of harnessing or manipulating them does not diminish my view and understanding of events and actions beyond my comprehension as miraculous. To ancient man, television or airplanes or computers or ... would seem nothing short of supernatural magic, miracles, if you will.

Some time ago I watched a fascinating documentary on the History Channel "explaining" plausible "natural" causes of the plagues in Egypt prior to the exodus of the Israelites. I am not troubled that God could harness the forces of nature to his purposes.

Tom

[Bravus]

True, but if He really can create universes with a word, creating a heap of water and then vanishing it again would be easy-peasy. And so on. And if he can't, then how do we distinguish His judgements from simple natural disasters. Presumably you don't believe Katrina was to punish America... why not? You see the problem?

[Dr. Shane]

A massive meteor shower during the flood is plausible. It certainly would help explain all the craters on the Moon. The mountain ranges that exist today probably did not exist prior to the Flood. The Flood was likely a tectonic event which started in motion the forces that would create the world's mountain ranges.

[Tom Wetmore]

I am inclined to accept without being troubled that events described in the Bible and attributed to God's judgment or action were natural events which God merely used for his purposes. I think ancient men blamed or credit him for many things, as we do today, that were not necessarily or directly his doing. The Bible was written by men from their point of view and not by God from his point of view. We have a hint of his perspective at times, as in Job, but mostly it is written by men. From their perspective, as devote believers in God, willingly credited God for things they otherwise could not explain or understand.

But it is not that God is the detached and uninvolved Deity sitting idle on his throne watching passively all that unfolds. I have often said that I believe that God is the undisputed master of taking absolutely anything no matter how bad, useless or disastrous and using it for his purposes - a sows ear into a silk purse of divine cosmic proportions. I think it quite plausible that God could see a massive asteroid on a collision course with earth, more than 120 years travel distance out, that would unleash a life changing chain of events that would completely alter earth's climate, weather, atmosphere, tectonic plates, axis, natural balance and even the course of its natural history. God could make a choice to divert it and save earth a cosmic disaster of complete destruction leaving mankind utterly unaware of his intervention. Or he could seek to warn those who were open to him and listening to trust him with a rescue in which they could make a simple choice to believe and trust Him even in the face of completely unforseen and unknowable future global disaster.

Or it could have happened exactly as the words Moses wrote down of the oral history handed down through the generations of his ancestors, the ancient people of the Middle East. Either way, my faith in God is unmoved and unshaken.

[Outta Here]

Just wondering aloud*: Would these natural events also include creation, itself? Is God a Divine Opportunist?

___________________________________

* No response needed nor requested.

[abelisle]

The way I see this is that God works within His own laws - both moral and physical. Can't help it if we aren't aware of all of His laws, at least not yet anyway.

Now if He decides to do one of His platonic wonders, like thinking or speaking stuff into existence, I say "good for God!" It's interesting to note that God "said" everything into existence until He "made" man, then He "planted" the Garden.

I could never figure out why and how God did stuff? I simply categorize it to His inscrutability and leave it at that.

But back to my initial premise - I have a gut feeling that this planet wasn't always looking like it does now and if EGW is correct about the importance of electricity and magnetism (Einstein was curious about these things also) then just maybe my axis hypothesis might have some "juice" to it?

Note: "juice" as in electric current - did you get it?

Alex

[Stan]

If it was 'the same' we would never have seasons, and I think the sabbath would be at the same time for everyone. (in the same time zone)

[donstickle]

This is a question that I would like to ask Bravus. You said that no tilt would mean no seasons and very hot and cold regions. I'm wondering if the earth were tilted twice as much to say 50+ degrees would that mean a much larger temperate zone?

Thanks,

Don