Christianity - The only religion that makes sense of the world?

[Twilight]

I never understood that kind of reasoning. I don't see how Christianity really makes any more sense of the world than Islam or animism. If Christianity answers all of your questions, why don't you know everything yet? Or why aren't any Christians even close to understanding everything? I could make up answers with as much scientific evidence as Christianity has.

What is it about Islam that can't make sense of the world? What is it about Buddhism that can't make sense of the world? I've never met a Christian who can make sense of the world; we always end up accepting things by faith as much as or more than other religions. A God who we can't see, who is infinite and yet incarnated into a finite human body and died for our sins, does not make for the most sensible religion. We can't explain God (and well we shouldn't), but we feel like we have all the answers to all the questions?

Man has an inherent sense of his need for cleansing from sin.

Only Christianity supplies that solution.

No other religion supplies a credible solution.

Take Islam for instance, a religion built on a system of works.

Immediately this fails as a mechanism, because if Islam provides a system of works for salvation, it is only equal to all other world religions that do the same.

It is only Christianity that supplies a rational and ultimate solution to my inherent sinfullness...

Christ on the cross paying for the sins, I cannot pay for.

Christ meeting the claims of the Law, that no man can meet...

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

For me, Christianity is the only belief system that makes sense of the world.

It answers all the major questions in life.

It answers all the smaller questions of my existance.

I do not believe any other belief system can do the same.

Your thoughts?

Mark

My take on this is that Christianity makes sense for me in "my" world - the way I see things BUT it does NOT answer all the major questions in the world. For example, the Bible does not explain the origin of sin. How could sin rear its ugly head in a perfect environment in the presence of a perfect Being, namely God. I think we refer to this as a theodicy.

I think sivart has raised some interesting points. A statement as strong as yours probably could use some side-by-side comparisons?

As for some of the smaller questions, "why is snow white?"

Alex

Hello Alex :-)

Those questions I believe will be answered, so although they are not answered now, I believe that that and others like it will be.

So it answers my question with a future answer, I do not know now, but I will.

Only Christianity can supply that promise.

As to why is snow white?

Because God willed it that way and created all the science that enables one to even perceive that colour or express that colour...

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

For me, Christianity is the only belief system that makes sense of the world.

Really? For anything to make sense you have to make a set of assumptions. That's why no one can claim what you are stating here.

For example if you believe in re-incarnation Christian heaven and hell would make little sense.

Originally Posted By: Twilight

It answers all the major questions in life.

Well, no one can agree what the major questions are, so answering all of them is really pretty unlikely.

Originally Posted By: Twilight

It answers all the smaller questions of my existance.

Again you have to have a LOT of evidence to be able to claim this. I certainly would never claim to answer all of anything.

All knowledge is impossible without having a set of assumptions upon which to build ideas.

There is nothing wrong with assumptions, but there is something wrong with assumptions that are not logically testable.

Take for instance your stance that you do not or cannot know whether God exists.

That is an assumption.

When we test that assumption, we can see that if you knew say 1% of the knowledge in the universe, you are still ignorant of 99% of all that knowledge.

So your assumption states "we do not know" because of 1% of knowledge.

That assumption then ignores the fact that the knowledge is in the 99% that you do not know.

The assumption that God exists however is testable by logical analysis.

Is the universe a "created" universe?

Yes because it has law built in that only comes when construction takes place, when design takes place.

Is the universe derived from something "eternal"?

Yes, even atheists admit that.

Does God explain the existance of the laws of logic, morality and science?

Yes.

And we could continue on.

All "world views" are built on assumptions, that then need testing and examining.

The only one that works that I have found is Christianity...

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

For me, Christianity is the only belief system that makes sense of the world.

It answers all the major questions in life.

It answers all the smaller questions of my existance.

I do not believe any other belief system can do the same.

Your thoughts?

Mark

I think one of the reasons Christianity makes more sense than most if not all is that Christianity has a Savior. Not really sure there are others at all. I know that some other religions say that someone is coming but I'm not sure that they are considered a Savior.

pk

Exactly PK, only Christianity provides the solution for our great need.

[SivartM]

I don’t know of any other religion doing that. As a matter of fact other religions are afraid of Jesus’ teaching by putting to death anyone leaving their faith in order to join Christianity as our Lord Jesus and His early Apostles taught it. Just look at Iran, Saudi Arabia and those places where Christians are afraid to have public meetings to gain new converts. Even the American army is on record to burn unsolicited Bibles in Afghanistan in order “to prevent more hate against the work done by the Americans in that nation” (as a matter of fact I wrote a letter to four members of the US congress in which I mentioned that such action was very counterproductive).

[Twilight]

Quote:

How do we know that man has an inherent sense of his need for cleansing from sin? Why are there so many legalistic religions instead of religions that try to cleanse from sin? We either have an inherent sense of need for cleansing from sin or we try to earn our own salvation. Since most of the world is involved in the latter, and there is no axiomatic law that says that "we need cleansing from sin" or "we need someone to die and take our place and save us from our sins", how can you say that everyone knows that they need cleansing from sin?

If they do not know they need it, why are they trying to do it by their own works?

Why do they spend so much time trying to cleanse themselves, if they are not aware?

--------------

Christianity is the only one with a credible solution for sin.

It is the only world view that actually makes sense on this point and many others.

Mark :-)

[cardw]

Quote:

All knowledge is impossible without having a set of assumptions upon which to build ideas.

There is nothing wrong with assumptions, but there is something wrong with assumptions that are not logically testable.

Well tell me how you can logically test for the god of the Bible or any god for that matter?

Quote:

Take for instance your stance that you do not or cannot know whether God exists.

I'm reasonably sure the god of the Bible doesn't exist because of my study of history and man's tendency to make up stories and the simplistic moral nature of that god. Plus the mountain of evidence that both the Jews and the Christians borrowed heavily from the pagan god religions around them.

And I'm agnostic because I can't figure out a logical test for the existence of god.

Quote:

The assumption that God exists however is testable by logical analysis.

Is the universe a "created" universe?

Yes because it has law built in that only comes when construction takes place, when design takes place.

First of all there is no way to test this for the god of the Bible. What you have outlined is not a test. It's not even at the level of scientific theory because you have no empirical data.

Quote:

Yes because it has law built in that only comes when construction takes place, when design takes place.

Is the universe derived from something "eternal"?

Yes, even atheists admit that.

If the universe has always been there then there is no creation.

Quote:

That assumption then ignores the fact that the knowledge is in the 99% that you do not know.

What makes you think that the god of the bible exists in that 99%? I don't have a test and you haven't outlined any test either. You are using the god of the gaps argument which is simply another claim without evidence.

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Does God explain the existance of the laws of logic, morality and science?

Yes.

And we could continue on.

How does god explain this? To me I could say that the flying spaghetti monster explains it and have just as much evidence.

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All "world views" are built on assumptions, that then need testing and examining.

The only one that works that I have found is Christianity...

Well, that may be true for you, but I am MUCH happier being a non-believer. So empirically for me, Christianity does not work better. In fact I have found a belief in Christianity is destructive to me. And there is a lot of empirical evidence that Christians have used a lot of violence in their history. There is a lot of evidence that the god of the Bible uses a lot of violence.

These are easy to examine and they are far more concrete than the claims you are making.

[Felix Florimon]

All knowledge is impossible without having a set of assumptions upon which to build ideas.

There is nothing wrong with assumptions, but there is something wrong with assumptions that are not logically testable.

Take for instance your stance that you do not or cannot know whether God exists.

That is an assumption.

When we test that assumption, we can see that if you knew say 1% of the knowledge in the universe, you are still ignorant of 99% of all that knowledge.

So your assumption states "we do not know" because of 1% of knowledge.

That assumption then ignores the fact that the knowledge is in the 99% that you do not know.

The assumption that God exists however is testable by logical analysis.

Is the universe a "created" universe?

Yes because it has law built in that only comes when construction takes place, when design takes place.

Is the universe derived from something "eternal"?

Yes, even atheists admit that.

Does God explain the existance of the laws of logic, morality and science?

Yes.

And we could continue on.

All "world views" are built on assumptions, that then need testing and examining.

The only one that works that I have found is Christianity...

Mark :-)

[cardw]

Quote:

If they do not know they need it, why are they trying to do it by their own works?

Not every religion is trying to earn something. Most aspirations are their own reward. To me, the idea that I am rewarded for good behavior or for having faith is the lowest form of moral development. And even lower is the idea that if I go around admitting what a sinful worm I am and claim to know things I can't possibly know then I am magically cleansed from my sin and I get to go to heaven.

Quote:

Why do they spend so much time trying to cleanse themselves, if they are not aware?

Many people become better because of suffering. Poor choices create suffering. If one pays attention moral development is built in because we have the ability to empathize, evaluate, and to choose. Morality can be built on reason and empathy.

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Christianity is the only one with a credible solution for sin.

Really, I know that Christianity does not solve the sin problem right now. It puts it off to an imaginary future without any proof of that future at all.

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It is the only world view that actually makes sense on this point and many others.

Actually if I were to choose a religion that made the most sense I would choose Buddhism. I don't believe in Buddhism, but it is the most internally consistent religion and relates to the observable world as it is because it doesn't rely on scriptures, but on observable experience. It has its problems, but it also doesn't go around killing everyone who disagrees or worships a god who does.

[Twilight]

Many people become better because of suffering. Poor choices create suffering. If one pays attention moral development is built in because we have the ability to empathize, evaluate, and to choose. Morality can be built on reason and empathy.

In your worldview Cardw, how do you account for the "laws" of absolute morality?

[Twilight]

Would you mind if we examined this point here:

Quote:

And I'm agnostic because I can't figure out a logical test for the existence of god.

There is a logical test for the existance of God.

How do you account for "laws of logic" without God?

[SivartM]

Which god? As I have said, there are many supposed gods and philosophies that claim to explain logic and morality.

[Twilight]

Which god? As I have said, there are many supposed gods and philosophies that claim to explain logic and morality.

The one with perfect morality...

The Christian God.

[cardw]

Would you mind if we examined this point here:

Quote:

And I'm agnostic because I can't figure out a logical test for the existence of god.

There is a logical test for the existance of God.

How do you account for "laws of logic" without God?

This is not a logical test because we have no reason to connect Yahweh exclusively with anything that is unknown.

You are claiming to know things you can't possibly know.

How do you account for the "laws of logic" without Allah?

[Felix Florimon]

Well, that may be true for you, but I am MUCH happier being a non-believer. So empirically for me, Christianity does not work better. In fact I have found a belief in Christianity is destructive to me. And there is a lot of empirical evidence that Christians have used a lot of violence in their history. There is a lot of evidence that the god of the Bible uses a lot of violence.

These are easy to examine and they are far more concrete than the claims you are making.

If you are happier being a non-believer, then it is your duty to keep being a good non-believer. This is because Christianity has suffered a lot in the hands of those that claim to be believers in the Lord Jesus Christ but with their own actions they have shown that they don’t care about following the teachings written in the New Testament in the Bible. The kingdom of God on earth would never advance by having people feeling much happier by being nonbelievers.

Now regarding Christianity using a lot of violence, you are just mentioning Christianity divorced from the teachings of our savior the Lord Jesus Christ. No one could ever use the teachings of our Lord Jesus and His early apostles to approve such kind of violence. The violence you talk about has not been made by real Christians but by those who through addiction to power and hate abdicated the teachings of our savior Jesus Christ while keeping the name of “Christians.” When you say “violence by Christians” is like saying “Christians” ordering the burning of bibles in Afghanistan or “Christians” accepting to prohibit the teaching of intelligent design in our science classrooms.

FF

[Twilight]

The assumption I am making is that God the Father, the Christian biblical Creator created and supplied the laws of logic.

That logic itself supplies the redemptive action of Christ as the only solution to sin.

Without that logical equation, of the penalty of sin being paid for, all religion falls down.

That is how Jehovah can answer what "allah" cannot.

But back to the question which you have not answered.

If your "worldview" is correct, how does it make sense of the "laws of logic" existing?

Upon what basis do you claim the right to identify and use the Laws of Logic?

I am going to make a bold statement here, but...

...Why is it that you argue a logical argument, when the very laws of logic you rely on, can only be accounted for by the Christian God?

Why do you stand on the ground of "Christian Logic", to prove there is no "Christian Logic"?

Why do you not stand on your own ground and explain to us all how you account for the "laws of logic"?

How do you account for the "laws of logic" cardw, without using the Christian God as your basis for them.

Where do they come from?

Mark :-)

[cardw]

Many people become better because of suffering. Poor choices create suffering. If one pays attention moral development is built in because we have the ability to empathize, evaluate, and to choose. Morality can be built on reason and empathy.

In your worldview Cardw, how do you account for the "laws" of absolute morality?

Suffering basically occurs because it is caused by pain. A lot of mental pain we suffer as humans is made up by ourselves. So these are not absolute. To some people calling them names has no effect, while others are terribly hurt. So these aren't absolute.

If we look at something like murder, it seems rather obvious that we wouldn't want to be killing each other. This isn't morality, but simple cause and effect.

As soon as we add the human factor with its preferences and emotional states we don't have anything that I would see as absolute. Even Jesus bypasses absolutes when he sets up the feedback of human feeling and empathy as our guide.

Do unto others as you would have them do to you is clearly based in humanity's ability to empathize and feel.

Rather than some absolute morality, which I don't believe exists I have observed that reason guided by empathy is a far more effective means to be in community.

[Twilight]

Quote:

Rather than some absolute morality, which I don't believe exists I have observed that reason guided by empathy is a far more effective means to be in community.

I want to ask you a careful question now.

I do this respectfully.

Is there any situation, where you think it is morally acceptable for an adult to molest a child?

[cardw]

Quote:

The assumption I am making is that God the Father, the Christian biblical Creator created and supplied the laws of logic.

An assumption has no proof so it may or may not be true.

Quote:

If your "worldview" is correct, how does it make sense of the "laws of logic" existing?

I don't have to provide a reason for their existence because I'm saying that the most honest answer is to say "I don't know"

It is up to you to provide proof of your claim. You have to establish it to be true first with something besides an assumption.

Quote:

...Why is it that you argue a logical argument, when the very laws of logic you rely on, can only be accounted for by the Christian God?

This is called circular reasoning. You are referencing your assumption which has no basis in fact.

You are claiming to know something you can't possibly know.

There are any number of things we can't explain. There is no reason to connect these with the Christian God.

All you have is claims.

I think you can't even conceive of a world without the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost and you are assuming that everyone else must feel this way.

[cardw]

Quote:

Rather than some absolute morality, which I don't believe exists I have observed that reason guided by empathy is a far more effective means to be in community.

I want to ask you a careful question now.

I do this respectfully.

Is there any situation, where you think it is morally acceptable for an adult to molest a child?

I can think of no situation guided by reason and empathy that it would be acceptable.

Well, let me ask you this.

Is there ever any situation where it is morally acceptable to drown every person and living being on the planet, including innocent children and animals, except for 8 marginally moral adults?

Is there ever any situation where it is morally acceptable to wipe out another race including their children except for their virgins which may be forced to "marry" and be raped by the very men who just killed their families?

Is there every any situation where it is morally acceptable to ask a man to kill his son and at the last moment say, "just kidding."

Is there ever any situation where it is morally acceptable for you to allow an innocent good man's family to be murdered, his estate destroyed, and have him infected with a painful disease to prove a point?

[skyblue888]

CardM. The Lord says, "Come now, and let us reason together." Isaiah 1:18. The heart in your chest, you can feel it beating, you can feel the pulse, can you not? But how does it beat? Does it beat by itself? The heart is a muscle. There are at least 500 muscles in the human body. Not one muscle in your body can contract without a command from the will. But here is a muscle in your body, the heart muscle, which contracts independently from your will and yet that heart of yours cannot beat once without a command and yet that command does not come from your will! So whose will is it that makes your heart to beat then?

When you and I were in school we were taught that the heart was an "involuntary" muscle. But can there really be such a thing as an involuntary muscle? Absolutely not. It is God who makes the heart beat. In fact your whole body is under the supervision of God Himself for "In God we live and move and have our being." Acts 17;28. In other words all creatures live by the will and power of God for, "In Him all things hold together." Col.1:17.

The truth is, Jesus Christ is the life of everything that lives. He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life." It is by His life that we exist, hour by hour, moment by moment. It is Him that causes the blood to circulate. Without Him we cannot even have a thought!

This is what makes all the difference between the Christian religion and all the other religions. Not only is Christ the Originator of all but He is the life of everything that lives for "In Him all things hold together." Col.1:17.

"He is above all and through all and in all." Eph.4:6,10. Of course right now He does not fill, absolutely fill as in the beginning, but nevertheless He is by the Spirit moving in all things according to His will. However, by faith we may be "filled with all the fullness of God." Eph.3:19.

Thus He says, "'Do I not fill Heaven and earth,' says the Lord." Jeremiah 23:24. When He mades a new heaven and a new earth He will fill all things again, absolutely fill all things as in the beginning.

"As the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven, and do not return there, but water the earth, and make it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater, So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But It shall accomplish what I please, and it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it." Isaiah 55:10,11.

We may not realize it but the simple fact of being exposed to the Word of God, (and it doesn't matter whether we believe it is the Word of God or not) it will not return to Him void!

sky

[Twilight]

Rather than some absolute morality, which I don't believe exists I have observed that reason guided by empathy is a far more effective means to be in community.

----------------

I can think of no situation guided by reason and empathy that it would be acceptable.

So where do the "laws of reason" come from cardw?

I have a concern here.

You spend a lot of time on these boards sharing your point of view.

But here is a question I do not think your point of view can answer, a most basic worldview question.

How do you account for the "laws of reason"?

You see, you are applying to an absolute standard.

You are saying "reason" is the absolute standard.

So how do you then explain how "reason" can be absolute?

How do you explain the "laws of reason".

Until you do that, your worldview does not even come to the table as a valid worldview that others could consider as viable.

Your other questions I am not going to attempt to answer for now, as until you can supply a rationale for your own worldview and the laws it inherently operates by, you have no basis to actually question those acts.

Why?

Because if you are arguing that God did something "immoral", then you are actually arguing "absolute morality".

Again, where do you get that from?

Lets discuss the foundations of the building, not the numbers on the front door...

Mark :-)

[skyblue888]

ah ha! the goddess of reason is coming back to life!!!

Because if you are arguing that God did something "immoral", then you are actually arguing "absolute morality".

____________________________________________________

Excellent point Mark. It is like saying, I am better than God. I can do much better than Him. Look at what He did in the Old Testament. If I were God I would do much better than that. By saying this, we are putting ourselves above God Himself, showing ourselves better than God. Instead, we should be humbly asking, Lord what is the meaning of what You did in the Old Testament? please teach me.

sky

[Twilight]

ah ha! the goddess of reason is coming back to life!!!

Because if you are arguing that God did something "immoral", then you are actually arguing "absolute morality".

____________________________________________________

Excellent point Mark. It is like saying, I am better than God. I can do much better than Him. Look at what He did in the Old Testament. If I were God I would do much better than that. By saying this, we are putting ourselves above God Himself, showing ourselves better than God. Instead, we should be humbly asking, Lord what is the meaning of what You did in the Old Testament? please teach me.

sky

It is a common point that most agnostics and atheists miss.

They argue there is no such thing as "absolute morality", then they turn and criticise God using...

...their own "absolute morality".

This is called "standing on Gods ground, to prove your own".

People try to fault the Christian Worldview, by actually using its principles to argue their case.

Why?

Because they do not have any basis for those principles/laws in their own worldview.

So they "borrow" Christian principles/laws without even realising it.

Mark :-)

[olger]

Excellent !!