Christianity - The only religion that makes sense of the world?

[cardw]

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All worldviews are based on "assumptions".

The only worldview that will work, is that which is testable.

So the "assumption" is tested, this is the most basic principle of science and logic of all forms.

So "laws of logic" when applied to an "assumption" of God, absolutely work.

The whole point of using assumptions is that they aren't testable. They are are needed because to make any decisions on a daily basis we have to assume a lot of things to simply function because of the limits of human knowledge.

This is called pragmatism. Pragmatism accepts that there are going to be contradictions in explanations, but moves forward in small steps looking at what works for the moment.

Of course an assumption of God works because this god is assumed to be all powerful. You can make up anything you want to fill gaps you don't know about because you have this magical being. This is not logic, this is magic in different words. You are playing with semantics not logic.

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So whilst you are mocking Christianity, you might want to look at your own religious view that are based on "faith" that God does not exist, those views that fail.

I don't need faith to know that the god of the Bible does not exist. I am not an atheist that declares that no god exists. I am agnostic because I accept that there may one day be a test for some type of god. But until then, I have to admit that I don't know.

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It seems that you are really stating that you do know everything, because until it manifests itself to you, it is not "anything", so in effect you already know everything...

How am I supposed to know something unless it manifests itself?

Really, I know everything because I don't know everything. I don't think you understand the rule of non-contradiction. LOL

[oldsailor29]

Only in Jesus the Christ do we find the answers to life's four existential questions. All other endeavors are but wanderings in the barren fields of narcissism.

regards,

oG

This is good olger, turning Satan's theology against him. Sounds like something God would do.

[Twilight]

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The whole point of using assumptions is that they aren't testable.

I disagree.

The whole of modern science is based on testing assumptions.

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Of course an assumption of God works

And "naturalism" is different how?

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But until then, I have to admit that I don't know.

But are you really admitting you do not know?

If you do not know, then you will be able to admit that I may be right on this matter of God's existance...

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How am I supposed to know something unless it manifests itself?

God has manifested Himself.

Through the "natural universal laws" that operate in the universe.

The only alternative is "naturalism".

But we know that naturalism (everything operating through natural caues), cannot explain the very laws that govern it.

They are subject to those universal laws.

May I ask you, can you name one "logical law" that you have observed not to be "universal"?

After all, you only believe in what you can observe.

So please given an observed example of where a logical law is invoked, but is not universal.

Mark

[cardw]

Only in Jesus the Christ do we find the answers to life's four existential questions. All other endeavors are but wanderings in the barren fields of narcissism.

That's a nice claim, but I'm not following narcissism and my life doesn't feel barren. Even secularists recognize the irrationality of narcissism. Your statement is an empty claim.

Again, all I see are claims. No evidence so far that Christianity is the BEST way to live life because it makes the most SENSE.

If you want to find out how narcissistic you are you can take a test at the following web site.

Test for Narcissism

[cardw]

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The whole of modern science is based on testing assumptions.

No, it is based on testing theories. Theories outline a method of testing that isolates a variable.

"A theory, in the scientific sense of the word, is an analytic structure designed to explain a set of empirical observations. It must respect the scientific method. To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning."

"An assumption is a proposition that is taken for granted, as if it were true based upon presupposition without preponderance of the facts."

An assumption is used when you have no way of testing something. You can't isolate god as a variable since we don't really know what god is and we have no way of eliminating everything else. Basically there is no way to test for god.

And even if there were, it would be a huge leap to say that this god was the god of the Bible.

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And "naturalism" is different how?

I'm not proposing naturalism. I'm proposing nothing that I can't know. I can guess, but I'm reasonably sure it would be incomplete or completely wrong.

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But are you really admitting you do not know?

If you do not know, then you will be able to admit that I may be right on this matter of God's existance...

I can admit that there may be some type of god, but to me the god of the Bible is so primitive that I find it highly unlikely that the god described there is that god.

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God has manifested Himself.

Through the "natural universal laws" that operate in the universe.

The only alternative is "naturalism".

This is the logical fallacy of false dilemma. Since you haven't established evidence for either, there is no choice.

The only answer that I can honestly give is that I don't know. In some people's minds naturalism is simply the default until we find out otherwise.

[olger]

Let's see..

1) Defensiveness.

2) Appeal to feelings (subjective thinking).

3) Dismissal.

4) Mild rabbit chase in hopes of changing subject.

2) Summary: A peculiar lack of interest in the identity of

life's four existential questions.

regards,

oG

[cardw]

Let's see..

1) Defensiveness.

2) Appeal to feelings (subjective thinking).

3) Dismissal.

4) Mild rabbit chase in hopes of changing subject.

2) Summary: A peculiar lack of interest in the identity of

life's four existential questions.

Well I don't think you know what you are talking about in terms of existential thought.

"The early 19th century philosopher Søren Kierkegaard, posthumously regarded as the father of existentialism, maintained that the individual is solely responsible for giving his own life meaning and living that life passionately and sincerely, in spite of many existential obstacles and distractions including despair, angst, absurdity, alienation, and boredom."

He "focused on subjective human experience rather than the objective truths of mathematics and science, which they believed were too detached or observational to truly get at the human experience. Like Pascal, they were interested in people's quiet struggle with the apparent meaninglessness of life and the use of diversion to escape from boredom."

"Emphasizing action, freedom, and decision as fundamental, existentialists oppose themselves to rationalism and positivism. That is, they argue against definitions of human beings as primarily rational. Rather, existentialists look at where people find meaning. Existentialism asserts that people actually make decisions based on the meaning to them rather than rationally."

Now who is avoiding the topic? The claim is that Christianity makes the most sense. That is a RATIONAL claim. Existential questions are questions of meaning, which exist outside of rationalism.

I admit that Christianity is one way to provide meaning. There is no evidence that it is the best or makes the most sense since meaning, in the existential sense, is individual.

The claim itself is meaningless in context of existentialism.

[cardw]

Quote:

May I ask you, can you name one "logical law" that you have observed not to be "universal"?

Tell me what the square root of -1 is.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: olger

Only in Jesus the Christ do we find the answers to life's four existential questions. All other endeavors are but wanderings in the barren fields of narcissism.

That's a nice claim, but I'm not following narcissism and my life doesn't feel barren. Even secularists recognize the irrationality of narcissism. Your statement is an empty claim.

Again, all I see are claims. No evidence so far that Christianity is the BEST way to live life because it makes the most SENSE.

If you want to find out how narcissistic you are you can take a test at the following web site.

Test for Narcissism

Well, it gives us a basis for the "laws of logic", the universal laws that you deny exist...

That must give is some credence over a view that has to deny their existance to protect itself?

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

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No, it is based on testing theories. Theories outline a method of testing that isolates a variable.

But you first have to "assume" a "theory" before you can test it.

If you do not need to "assume" anything in a "theory" then it would not be a "theory".

This seems a very illogical statement you have made here Cardw.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

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Well I don't think you know what you are talking about in terms of existential thought.

You have used this type of argument a couple of times now Cardw.

It seems like it is an appeal to intellectual authority.

Your own.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

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May I ask you, can you name one "logical law" that you have observed not to be "universal"?

Tell me what the square root of -1 is.

I do not know the answer as I am not a mathematician.

Could you please explain your response.

But as you do, I would ask you answer this question in your answer:

Does the answer "ever" change.

Or is the answer "always universal"?

Mark

[oldsailor29]

off topic - and that proves Christianity is the only religion that makes sense, of not only the world, but of all creation, because it is the enemy of God who tries to divert our thoughts away from God.

The infinite and personal Creator/God of Christianity (Who was formerly the God of Israel) is the very positive One God with a capital G, and the only answer to the meaning of life that makes sense.

Satan is the ultimate existentialist, and knows nothing of infinity. He has no information about it. He is a real dummy about infinity. But Jesus reveals as much information about the infinite realm as can be humanly understood.

It is a free realm of no law, in which no created being can exist. In the infinite realm, God can create a rock too heavy for Him to lift. Then He can lift it. There is no logic in the infinite realm. There are lots of square circles in the infinite realm.

If Satan got the freedom from law he wanted, it would destroy him. His very existence depends on God's law, as does the existence of all creation. Someday, all those who want total freedom from all law will get it.

[Twilight]

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Someday, all those who want total freedom from all law will get it.

Sadly, this is indeed true.

[cardw]

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Well I don't think you know what you are talking about in terms of existential thought.

You have used this type of argument a couple of times now Cardw.

It seems like it is an appeal to intellectual authority.

Unlike you, I provide some evidence. So my statement is not based on authority, but on evidence.

In this instance you are condemning yourself.

[cardw]

I do not know the answer as I am not a mathematician.

If you're not a mathematician then you won't understand the "answer."

I guess you're an involuntary agnostic when it comes to the "universal" laws of logic. LOL

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I do not know the answer as I am not a mathematician.

If you're not a mathematician then you won't understand the "answer."

I guess you're an involuntary agnostic when it comes to the "universal" laws of logic. LOL

This is a common tactic.

It is often called "intellectual bullying".

It is used by the antagonist to move the subject into an area they "understand" in an attempt to control the discussion.

It is a bit like having a conversation with someone, who then starts speaking French to show how superior they are...

================

You could of course try to answer the question and tell me if the answer that came back ever changes, or is "universal".

Or you could try to move into an area of "escape"...

Mark :-)

[cardw]

I do not know the answer as I am not a mathematician.

Originally Posted By: cardw

If you're not a mathematician then you won't understand the "answer."

I guess you're an involuntary agnostic when it comes to the "universal" laws of logic. LOL

This is a common tactic.

It is often called "intellectual bullying".

[oldsailor29]

This was an interesting topic until we started talking about math. yuck! Everything is not always what it appears to be. Does the order of math overcome its randomness? But that is way off topic. Diversions from the topic is another way of admitting error. Whether or not God exists, was not the original topic. But if one does not believe in God, then there is nothing for them beyond that which this life brings, and this topic does not really matter. Nothing matters. These beliefs are not new. They were part of the anti-wisdom movement found in Ecclesiastes. But when the discerning mathematician reaches the basis of math knowledge, and gets right down to the foundations, he can see the intelligence behind the design of all creation. I didn't make that up. It came from Einstein. So, someone who really knows math would never deny the existence of God.

[cardw]

I didn't make that up. It came from Einstein. So, someone who really knows math would never deny the existence of God.

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: olger

Only in Jesus the Christ do we find the answers to life's four existential questions. All other endeavors are but wanderings in the barren fields of narcissism.

That's a nice claim, but I'm not following narcissism and my life doesn't feel barren. Even secularists recognize the irrationality of narcissism. Your statement is an empty claim.

Again, all I see are claims. No evidence so far that Christianity is the BEST way to live life because it makes the most SENSE.

If you want to find out how narcissistic you are you can take a test at the following web site.

Test for Narcissism

I would be interested to know how olger and others scored on the narcissism test...

[oldsailor29]

Albert Einstein did not believe in the god of the Bible or a personal god. He was a pantheist or possibly a deist. That is very close to what many agnostics believe.

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A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man. (Albert Einstein)

I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. (Albert Einstein, 1954)

I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings. (Albert Einstein)

So --- Christianity explains it better than math.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Albert Einstein did not believe in the god of the Bible or a personal god. He was a pantheist or possibly a deist. That is very close to what many agnostics believe.

Quote:

A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man. (Albert Einstein)

I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. (Albert Einstein, 1954)

I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings. (Albert Einstein)

So --- Christianity explains it better than math.

I'm not sure how you got the idea that Christianity explains it better than math since Einstein is saying that he derives his religious experience from his study of math and physics or in his more eloquent words, "the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

Plus, Einstein was Jewish. So if we were to place a religious label on him, it would be Judaism, which he categorically denied, not Christianity.

[phkrause]

I would be interested to know how olger and others scored on the narcissism test...

I thought the questions were mulipitive (sp), I'll leave it at that. Can't really say what I thought on this forum, actually wouldn't want to say what I thought.

Though I did score a resounding 5 Tom

But I did sleep at a holiday Inn.

pk

[oldsailor29]

I'm not sure how you got the idea that Christianity explains it better than math since Einstein is saying that he derives his religious experience from his study of math and physics or in his more eloquent words, "the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

Well, since math is not a religion, but only one slice of the scientific community, it does not have all of the existential answers. No part of the scientific community can answer all of those questions. Even the total scientific universe has more questions than answers. What is beyond the measured boundaries of time and space? God is the only answer. And while there are many other religions in the world, Christianity is ours, and it is the one in which we believe. We believe in God because we have experienced His power which operates outside the boundaries of math and science. And we believe Jesus Christ is God is the flesh, who created all that is, and has taken steps to insure His creation will continue to be well and prosper.

All who do not believe this are heretics, who will burn in everlasting hell fire !!!!