Christianity - The only religion that makes sense of the world?

[Twilight]

Quote:

How can you refute this without understanding the mathematics? To solve these problems you have to use 2 different opposing sets of rules of math. This demonstrates that logic is not universal but has to be adapted depending on the circumstances. The result is the determining factor, not the logic.

So let me get this straight?

You use "logic" to define which "methods of logic" to use in a given situation.

And by doing that, you claim that universal laws of logic do not exist?

Quote:

This demonstrates that logic is not universal but has to be adapted depending on the circumstances.

What you have done here is use another set of "logic".

This is used in the term:

Quote:

adapted depending on the circumstances

So what you have said is basically this:

"I have some laws of logic, one set does not answer the question, so by using another set of laws of logic, I choose a logical argument out of the other two, but even though I have now used logic to pick which of the original two is correct, I do not need "logic" as universal laws of logic do not exist...

Hmmm....

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Quote:

With this reasoning you deny the laws of reason. LOL

But you cannot have "reason" without laws of logic...

As you do not believe laws of logic are universal, then you cannot even use the argument of "laws of reason".

As logic and reason are subjective to you.

And therefore in your mind subjective to me.

You cannot prove anything.

You have absolutely no "authority" on which to base anything and everything you state is just an arbitrary opinion.

Because without laws of logic I can say:

God exists.

You can say:

God doesn't exist.

And we are both right...

According to your argument.

--------------------

And let me ask you this?

Why are you even arguing about this, if absolute laws of logic do not exist?

If there are no absolute laws of logic, your whole effort in posting is totally illogical.

You have absolutely no reason to refute anyone about anything.

As you have no "absolutes" to appeal to...

You have no "absolutes", so you cannot prove anything...

You have "nothing" to measure "anything" against.

Why exactly do you think this worldview is appealing?

Is it because you do not "want" any absolutes in your life, and because of that, you deny God?

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

In fact Cardw...

Stating:

"There are no absolute laws of logic".

IS an absolute law of logic...

You have just made an absolute statement.

*chuckles*

Case closed?

Mark

[olger]

Card,

You cannot posit an absolute with a statement that denies that they exist.

oG

[cardw]

Card,

You cannot posit an absolute with a statement that denies that they exist.

oG

The statement "I don't know" is not an absolute.

According to you I can't posit that Santa Claus doesn't exist.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

How can you refute this without understanding the mathematics? To solve these problems you have to use 2 different opposing sets of rules of math. This demonstrates that logic is not universal but has to be adapted depending on the circumstances. The result is the determining factor, not the logic.

So let me get this straight?

You use "logic" to define which "methods of logic" to use in a given situation.

And by doing that, you claim that universal laws of logic do not exist?

No I use pragmatism which is a philosophy. Philosophy is a belief, not logic.

[cardw]

In fact Cardw...

Stating:

"There are no absolute laws of logic".

IS an absolute law of logic...

You have just made an absolute statement.

*chuckles*

Case closed?

Mark

Well, if you have been reading me in context, it is my belief that there a no absolute laws of logic since I have repeatedly admitted that I can't prove it. That is simply my position because I haven't come across any.

Let's take the core logic rule of cause and effect. It is a primary one used to claim that god exists. The universe is the effect which requires a cause which believers identify as god.

Now if this law is universal then it applies to every case. If this is true then you are arguing for a mechanistic universe. There can be no manifestation without a cause.

This essentially removes personal responsibility and free choice. If it is universal then there is no action that we take that doesn't have a pre-existing cause. And within the Christian belief system, if we keep going back far enough we eventually have to come to god since god created everything. This means that god is the cause of sin.

We remove consciousness. Consciousness becomes an illusion that is only a complex mechanism that is operating on these universal logical laws of cause and effect.

This pretty much negates much of Christianity.

[Twilight]

Quote:

Well, if you have been reading me in context, it is my belief that there a no absolute laws of logic since I have repeatedly admitted that I can't prove it.

So you do not "know" there are no "universal laws of logic"?

You just "believe" that is the case.

So you are arguing against the Christian faith as illogical based on a "faith" statement that underpins your own worldview?

You "believe" something and build a worldview on that?

So on "faith" you deny universal laws of logic?

Then based on that "faith" based worldview, you deny Christianity as a valid absolute worldview?

-----------------

So let me clarify your position my friend.

You are now saying that you do not "believe" there are universal laws of logic, is that correct?

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Quote:

That is simply my position because I haven't come across any.

To state you have not come across universal laws of logic, means that you are in effect saying you have come across instances where what others hold as "universal laws of logic", you have found to be "non-universal laws of logic".

So which of the laws of logic that are held as universal by many have you noticed are "not" universal.

Please provide an example of when you have seen this in action, in laymans terms.

Mark :-)

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Well, if you have been reading me in context, it is my belief that there a no absolute laws of logic since I have repeatedly admitted that I can't prove it.

So you do not "know" there are no "universal laws of logic"?

You just "believe" that is the case.

[cardw]

Quote:

That is simply my position because I haven't come across any.

To state you have not come across universal laws of logic, means that you are in effect saying you have come across instances where what others hold as "universal laws of logic", you have found to be "non-universal laws of logic".

[Twilight]

Quote:

That is correct. Until you provide evidence otherwise, I can't claim that they exist. I would be lying.

For you to say that "there are no" universal laws of logic, means that you have observed instances when universal laws of logic did not apply.

When was this?

Which of the following "laws of logic" have you seen to be "suspended" at some point:

1. The law of identity

2. The law of non-contradiction

3. The law of the excluded middle

You see, if these have always been in operation, then that itself proves they are universal.

So for you to say they are not universal, means you have seen instances when these laws have not been in operation...

Can you give an example of one of those times?

Or is it a "faith" based statement you are making, that assumes "universal laws of logic" might not apply universally?

And that you have not actually seen this "suspension" in reality?

Mark

[Twilight]

Which part of the earth for instance Rich, can you visit and say that you can observe this principle:

Black is the same colour as white.

[Twilight]

Quote:

You're the only person I have talked with that made this claim. I have read no one of any authority in philosophy, mathematics, or physics that has made this claim.

You are one of the very few people I have ever met that has even attempted to deny the "universal laws of logic" are in fact in existance...

Quote:

These show the possibility that the human brain operates on the quantum level, not the computational level.

Ah...

The "quantum" word, thrown in to take the discussion somewhere impossible to follow?

:-)

As your statement only implies a "possibility", how can you then go on to use it as an argument?

-----------------

Can you show an example of where you have observed the "universal laws of logic" not to exist Rich?

If not, then your whole argument is totally illogical.

Therefore, your worldview is illogical.

Therefore, your criticism of any other worldview is illogical.

You have no basis to pass judgement on any other worldview, when your own does not stand up to the most basic scrutiny.

I have to simply state, any criticism from yourself of Christianity holds absolutely no value to me whatsoever as it is based on an illogical faith based belief system that does not even have the capacity to offer a simple explanation for "universal laws of logic".

And I hope now, that others can see that as well.

Mark :-)

[Guest]

Clear as glass...

As plain as the nose on my face.

[cardw]

Which part of the earth for instance Rich, can you visit and say that you can observe this principle:

Black is the same colour as white.

Well any place that it is pitch dark. LOL

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

You're the only person I have talked with that made this claim. I have read no one of any authority in philosophy, mathematics, or physics that has made this claim.

You are one of the very few people I have ever met that has even attempted to deny the "universal laws of logic" are in fact in existance...

[Felix Florimon]

Originally Posted By: Felix Florimon

I am not quoting the Bible in order to answer a claim that Christianity makes more sense. I am quoting it as a point of reference because Christianity was born from the teachings written in the Bible. If we are talking whether Christianity makes more sense or not we should first examine and quote from the source of its teachings.

I understand that, but you aren't supplying any reasoning or evidence that it is the best. That is a very difficult thing to prove because it is so fantastic.

[cardw]

I need first to express my own best understanding of the “Christian view of God or the source of everything that exists” based on biblical grounds.

[oldsailor29]

In Christianity, God is the first cause of life, and the first cause of faith. God gives both life and faith. Life He gives to all. Faith He gives to some. I count myself a fortunate beneficiary of the gift of faith. My faith is as real as any experience, and someday God will show proof to all skeptics. Meanwhile, I see no benefit in any attempt to convince those without faith that God is real. There is no value in being able to prove the existence of God through rationalities, so I'll just remain happy with 99 percent of the universe who believe, and let God deal with the lost sheep who do not.

[phkrause]

In Christianity, God is the first cause of life, and the first cause of faith. God gives both life and faith. Life He gives to all. Faith He gives to some. I count myself a fortunate beneficiary of the gift of faith. My faith is as real as any experience, and someday God will show proof to all skeptics. Meanwhile, I see no benefit in any attempt to convince those without faith that God is real. There is no value in being able to prove the existence of God through rationalities, so I'll just remain happy with 99 percent of the universe who believe, and let God deal with the lost sheep who do not.

I think oldsailor I totally disagree with your whole statement or 99% of it. I do believe he gives all life, but I also believe he gives all of us Faith, which we all have in us, we just need to use it. And eventually if we don't use it we lose it.

pk

[oldsailor29]

I think oldsailor I totally disagree with your whole statement or 99% of it. I do believe he gives all life, but I also believe he gives all of us Faith, which we all have in us, we just need to use it. And eventually if we don't use it we lose it.

pk

Regardless, if we all begin life with a spark of faith which some lose, or if some begin life with no faith, the result is the same.

[Twilight]

Question for Cardw:

What pain and suffering would exist on this earth if man had never disobeyed God?

[skyblue888]

"God who has dealt to every man a measure of faith." Rom.12:3.

"Faith is the gift of God but the power to exercise it is ours." P.P.431.

If exercised, "Your faith grows exceedingly." 2 Thess.1:3.

sky :)

[oldsailor29]

several times Bible verses say all, when they do not really mean all. For example, all of the tribe of Benjamin were killed. Yet, some were not, and needed to have wives from other tribes. Of course God knows who will not exercise faith if He gives it to them, and that makes it more efficient just to skip those people from the beginning. Not only is our faith given to us by God, the desire to exercise that faith is also a gift. Even more, the ability to exercise our faith is a gift. For "God worketh in us to will and to do." Phil. 2:13.