The "real" sin of Sodom

[phkrause]

Quote:

Shane: Although I love many people here at C/A, including you, John. I define love with two basic words: commitment and acceptance. Commitment is characterized as looking out for another's well-being. Acceptance means the commitment is unconditional.

That's one of the best and nicest things I've seen on the Forum in a long, long time. Thanks for that, Shane.

I agree John.

pk

[Bravus]

Doug: 6 pages of discussion total, of which I'd say less than 1 pertain to the issue of poor people. Our priorities are clear from where we spend our attention, and our priorities are not Jesus' priorities.

[teresaq]

i came across this yesterday and thought the point was quite interesting, and inline with the topic.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/02/28/stark.chile.quake.haiti/index.html?hpt=C2

[Dr. Shane]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

Our problem is simple: gay sex is just more *interesting* than poor people

Sadly, the poor get pushed aside and forgotten once again...

The poor are certainly not forgotten by the Adventist church. God calls different people to do different things. The body has many members. The eye should not criticize the hand because it cannot see. The hand should not criticize the ear because it cannot touch. Each member of the body as a purpose - a calling. Many members are called to work with the poor and do an outstanding job of doing so. Other members are called to work in our prisons and do a fine job. Yet others are called to work with our youth. Some are called to work mending broken families. Indeed some are called to work with alcoholics, drug addicts, those with eating disorders and yes, some are called to work with gays. Those called to minister to the poor ought not look down on and criticize other called to other ministries.

[doug yowell]

Doug: 6 pages of discussion total, of which I'd say less than 1 pertain to the issue of poor people. Our priorities are clear from where we spend our attention, and our priorities are not Jesus' priorities.

I thought one of Jesus main priorities was teaching/preaching?(Or is that two?) And who's the "our" that you're referring to? I think Tom's just trying to stir up some guilt for the sake of discussion and nobody got it.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

Our problem is simple: gay sex is just more *interesting* than poor people

Sadly, the poor get pushed aside and forgotten once again...

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

Doug: 6 pages of discussion total, of which I'd say less than 1 pertain to the issue of poor people. Our priorities are clear from where we spend our attention, and our priorities are not Jesus' priorities.

I thought one of Jesus main priorities was teaching/preaching?(Or is that two?) And who's the "our" that you're referring to? I think Tom's just trying to stir up some guilt for the sake of discussion and nobody got it.

Mat 11:2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,

Mat 11:3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?

Mat 11:4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:

Mat 11:5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.

Luk 7:19 And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?

Luk 7:20 When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?

Luk 7:21 And in that same hour he cured many of their infirmities and plagues, and of evil spirits; and unto many that were blind he gave sight.

Luk 7:22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.

[Bravus]

Yeah, I think your point is a good one and well made, Shane, but not quite responsive to the discussion here. The point was more about where the emotional energy of the laity is directed - and we here are some sort of sample of the laity. The ratio in this thread of (off topic) discussion of homosexuality to (on topic) discussion of helping the poor is telling...

[Dr. Shane]

I think that is simply due to where the controversy is. Most everyone is in agreement that Christians should help the poor. Not much to discuss there. Contrast that to how the church should deal with homosexuality and we find a lot to talk about. So it is not that Christians care more about homosexuality than helping the poor. It is simply that Christians agree more when talking about the poor than when talking about homosexuality.

[John317]

Good post, Shane. I whole-heartedly agree with you.

I think it's important for every person in the church to feel a burden to help the poor in an individual way and not to rely on the official church structure to do it for them.

I've often gone to areas in Los Angeles where there are lots of poor people for the purpose of giving clothes, literature, and even money.

One thing a church can do if it is in large urban areas is spend Sabbath afternoons visiting the poor and inviting them to a vesper service at the church where they can get something to eat after a short song service and Bible study. I saw this work very well in the San Francisco/Berkeley area.

[John317]

...The point was more about where the emotional energy of the laity is directed - and we here are some sort of sample of the laity. The ratio in this thread of (off topic) discussion of homosexuality to (on topic) discussion of helping the poor is telling...

What was said about homosexuality was not entirely off topic. It is actually brought up in the lead post:

Quote:

In one striking passage, Mr. Stearns quotes the prophet Ezekiel as saying that the great sin of the people of Sodom wasn’t so much that they were promiscuous or gay as that they were “arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.” (Ezekiel 16:49.)

Mr. Stearns is wrong about that. Simply because Ezekiel doesn't mention homosexuality by name doesn't mean it wasn't one of the sins of Sodom. That is where the question of homosexuality on this thread began. It begins with the attitude that homosexuality is either not wrong or had nothing to do with Sodom's destruction. They are wrong on both counts. The Bible contains condemnations of both kinds of sins.

There's no reason to call into question the validity of the biblical condemnation of homosexuality in order to point up the importance of helping the poor and needy. It isn't an "either/or" situation.

[John317]

I think this is a good example of what some Adventists are doing to help people in need. It'd be a good way to start something to help the poor in any community.

================================================

Church group looks to lend a helping hand

Posted By Vince Burke/Staff Writer

Posted 17 hours ago

A Wetaskiwin men's church group is taking the idea of the Good Samaritan to a whole new level.

Formed more than two years ago, the group is organized out of the Seventh Day Adventists Church, located north of Wetaskiwin.

The 15 men have been busy fixing, helping and doing odd jobs for others in and around the Wetaskiwin area.

More jobs wanted

And the group is looking for more people – who are handicapped or cannot do the work themselves – who may need its help.

"We do mostly construction work, helping little old ladies and handicapped people," explained group leader Bob Buckler.

"West of Wetaskiwin, there was a lady who was ill, so we shingled her house, and painted her house. We shingled her garage and cleaned up her whole yard."

Buckler added the money for the projects the group does is financed by those people they are helping, but with the ministry group doing the labour, it becomes much more affordable for people to get the job done.

"She got a grant for the money to shingle her house, and a contract called for $4,500 just to shingle the house," said Buckler.

"She gave us that money and we shingled the house, painted the house, shingled the garage and cleaned up the yard (for that money), so she was pretty happy, too.

"They usually come up with the money for the material and we supply the labour free of charge."

Buckler said with all the guys in the men's ministry group, the work doesn't take a long time.

He said they shingled the roof of the 1,000-foot home in four hours.

Buckler said it was a group decision to start the community outreach.

"It has been rewarding and the guys enjoy it. When they said they wanted me to be the leader, I said, if I am the leader, they are going to have to get their hands dirty. That was OK, and they were fine with it," he said.

Buckler said the group is looking for more people in need that they could help out and is putting out the word that his guys are willing and waiting.

"We do have a project in the spring, we have a fencing project," he said.

"But, we always keep our eyes open and word of mouth travels well."

How to reach them

Those looking to inquire about using Buckler and his men's group's services for a construction project can contact him at 780-352-7679.

He can also be reached via email at bjhold@incentre.net

He said it is open to anyone who is disabled or like the elderly woman, who was unable to do the job herself.

You also don't need to be a member of the congregation.

[Tom Wetmore]

A handful of wonderful anecdotes of good people does not restore the balance that is missing.

Two simple statistics put in perspective the magnitude - More children in the world do not have adequate shelter (640 million) than the total number of homosexuals in the entire world. More people in the world are chronically undernourished (790 million) than the total number of homosexuals in the entire world.

Here are the facts - http://www.globalissues.org/article/26/poverty-facts-and-stats

[doug yowell]

A handful of wonderful anecdotes of good people does not restore the balance that is missing.

Two simple statistics put in perspective the magnitude - More children in the world do not have adequate shelter (640 million) than the total number of homosexuals in the entire world. More people in the world are chronically undernourished (790 million) than the total number of homosexuals in the entire world.

Here are the facts - http://www.globalissues.org/article/26/poverty-facts-and-stats

So Tom, Are you saying that the real issue here is not what Christians are doing for the poor but rather what you think they are failing to do? Are you saying that Kristof's op/ed,which commends conservative Christianity for being the leaders in helping the world's poor, is actually irrelevent to the discussion?

[teresaq]

are the poor and hungry increasing?

how many millions of orphans are there worldwide?

what can we do to help?

[aldona]

Quote:

the real sin of Sodom...

Selfishness - the failure to love one's neighbor as oneself, instead placing ourselves above others - is the root of all other sins.

From selfishness proceeds pride and arrogance.

From selfishness comes disregard of the poor and failure to show hospitality to the stranger.

Selfishness is at the root of sexual sins - placing our own lust above self-control, above God's commands and above the well-being of others.

All of the above are illustrated in the account of Sodom - the people of Sodom had become so hardened in their selfishness that when two strangers appeared in the town, the first impulse of the crowd (composed of both men and women) was to rape them instead of showing hospitality and kindness.

The sexual sin is only part of the big picture, and is one of the fruits (rather than the root) of the problem.

aldona

[Tom Wetmore]

TU

[Tom Wetmore]

...So Tom, Are you saying that the real issue here is not what Christians are doing for the poor but rather what you think they are failing to do? Are you saying that Kristof's op/ed,which commends conservative Christianity for being the leaders in helping the world's poor, is actually irrelevent to the discussion?

No, that is NOT what I am saying...

What if ALL Christians got their priorities straight? What if ALL really took Jesus' words in Matthew 25 seriously? What if ALL Christians treated sexual sinners as Jesus did?

[teresaq]

TU

double that here.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Here are the facts - http://www.globalissues.org/article/26/poverty-facts-and-stats

I might have missed it, but I didn't see the number of homosexuals listed.

[Bravus]

Very roughly, the stats seem to suggest that somewhere between 4% and 10% of the population is gay. A far, far higher percentage than that of people live in poverty worldwide... or even in developed countries.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Thanks Bravus, for the info.

Yes, I know far more about poverty than I wish I knew.

[olger]

I think only about 4% of the population is sexually deviant (perverted).

I agree that there are a greater percentage of poor people, perhaps reminiscent of Jesus' assertation that the poor would be here always (paraphrase).

rejoice always,

gcw

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

the real sin of Sodom...

Selfishness - the failure to love one's neighbor as oneself, instead placing ourselves above others - is the root of all other sins.

I read a book written by a psychologist in the 1960s who noted that homosexuals and alcoholics are cousins of sorts because they both tend to suffer with extreme selfishness. So it only reasons that if Sodom was full of a bunch of gays, they would also be selfish.

[Dr. Shane]

Very roughly, the stats seem to suggest that somewhere between 4% and 10% of the population is gay.

We can only get to the 4% to 10% statistic by including everyone that has ever had a same-sex sexual experience. That really is a false statistic because a lot of people that have same-sex sexual experiences are doing so out of curiosity, while intoxicated and sometimes because of rape or molestation. They are not really attracted to the same sex and do not adopt a gay lifestyle. In cases of rape and molestation, the acts are not even voluntary on the part of the victims.

When asked if a person has had a same-sex sexual experience within the past five years, the numbers range from 2% - 4%. There are more male homosexuals than females. However, if we include those experimenting with the same sex, more females experiment than males.