The "real" sin of Sodom

[teresaq]

Very roughly, the stats seem to suggest that somewhere between 4% and 10% of the population is gay. A far, far higher percentage than that of people live in poverty worldwide... or even in developed countries.

and is ever increasing!

haiti was already poverty-stricken, what would we call it now?

and chile...

just to name a couple.

[John317]

A handful of wonderful anecdotes of good people does not restore the balance that is missing.

Two simple statistics put in perspective the magnitude - More children in the world do not have adequate shelter (640 million) than the total number of homosexuals in the entire world. More people in the world are chronically undernourished (790 million) than the total number of homosexuals in the entire world.

There was no intention of "restoring the balance." That is an impossibility for one post to do, let alone a whole thread. There was only the intention of showing an example of how some Seventh-day Adventists are working to help the poor.

But helping the poor has nothing to do with counting the number of homosexuals or bisexuals or transsexuals, does it?

Why is it necessary to talk about homosexuality in order to talk about the importance of helping the poor? I thought you wanted to get away from discussing homosexuality.

As I said, the issue of its being wrong to neglect the poor is not a matter of having to choose whether to encourage the fight against poverty or whether to condemn the practice of homosexuality. They are both wrong, and the Bible condemns both sins. It's perfectly biblical to condemn the practice of homosexuality and other forms of sexual immorality and at the same time to feel passionate about helping the poor and needy. The Bible does both; we should too.

[olger]

Point well made.

oG

[Cosmin M.]

No comment.

[Tom Wetmore]

...There was no intention of "restoring the balance." That is an impossibility for one post to do, let alone a whole thread. There was only the intention of showing an example of how some Seventh-day Adventists are working to help the poor.

But helping the poor has nothing to do with counting the number of homosexuals or bisexuals or transsexuals, does it?

Why is it necessary to talk about homosexuality in order to talk about the importance of helping the poor? I thought you wanted to get away from discussing homosexuality...

Adventures in missing the point...

It was not I but you and others that keep bringing up the topic of homosexuals, generally or counting them. Why do you suppose Rudywoofs had to point out that I make no mention of how many there are? I have repeatedly tried to get this topic back to the original point, but you and others keep changing the topic by bringing up the pet sexual perversion of homosexuality...

Maybe if all Christians kept their focus on the priority problems, we would make some progress toward restoring the balance.

Why don't we want to talk about poverty?

[olger]

We've talked about poverty until Jesus' words regarding the poor rang hollow, and we have helped them in America until many of them choose benevolence over ambition.

In my 50-year observation, one of premiere reasons that progressives extol humanitarian outreach is that they find themselves embarrassed by theological outreach. Aberrant cases exist, I am the son of a humanitarian legend. And Dad was not supportive of the social gospel at all, giant though he was.

best,

oG

[teresaq]

instead of patting ourselves on the back for what we are doing, and instead of worrying about whether homosexuals are "getting" that they are living "wrong",

why dont we see what more needs to be done...

Quote:

About six weeks ago, a large earthquake devastated Haiti and killed over 200,000 people. Saturday, a huge earthquake releasing 500 times more energy, devastated Chile and killed hundreds.

So why did the smaller earthquake kill so many more people? And why the sudden spate of disastrous earthquakes in the Americas?

...The real answers, for those comfortable with science and the Enlightenment, are tectonics and poverty.

Of the many revolutions of the 1960s, the one that really mattered to geologists was the revolution of plate tectonics. Tectonics is the word geologists use to describe the process by which mountains move and rocks squeeze and crunch.

In the sixties, new data from research cruises and from earthquake seismometers led to the realization that tectonics makes mountains slide sideways long distances. Earth scientists discovered that the Earth has a patchy skin of mobile plates a hundred miles thick and thousands of miles across, and that they move horizontally at a slow but irresistible pace. It's where they collide that our problems begin.

South America is a prime example of this process, one that geologists call "subduction." It's why we have the long chain of mountains called the Andes and it's why countries like Chile and Peru suffer giant, destructive earthquakes every few decades.

Off the coast of Chile is a tectonic plate called the Nazca Plate. Unseen by most, it has been inching its way towards the South American continent, and sliding underneath it,... Since the day that Magellan first rounded Tierra del Fuego it has encroached by 130 feet in a roughly east-north-east direction.

The Nazca plate doesn't slide under the South American plate in an orderly fashion though. It moves in fits and starts, sometimes sticking and sometimes slipping, sometimes here and sometimes there. Along the coast of Chile, patches can get stuck for over a hundred years. When they do finally slip, they go with a bang. All that squeezing energy is released in seconds and an earthquake happens.

On Saturday a patch roughly the size of Maryland came unstuck, unleashing one of the most powerful tremors ever recorded. Fifty years ago, a patch four times bigger and with an area of about 50,000 square miles, the size of Louisiana, slipped and triggered the Valdivia earthquake. Its magnitude has been estimated as at least 9.5, making it the largest earthquake of modern times.

... this tectonic squeezing has formed the Andes and raised the high desert known as the Altiplano. Elsewhere it has created the Alps, the Rockies, the Himalayas, and Tibet. It has also created and distorted some of the islands of the Caribbean, including Haiti.

So that's why some parts of the world suffer from big earthquakes that strike with irregular frequency, while other regions are seismically quiet: it all depends on where the plates meet and how fast they are running into each other.

Knowing this helps us assess seismic risk and mitigate it. It helps us know where the strongest earthquake shaking will hit and roughly how often. Predicting when the shaking will hit is a much greater challenge, and geophysicists are working hard to reach that goal. In any case, prediction is not the real problem: poverty is.

Poverty is what ultimately kills most people during an earthquake. Poverty means that little or no evaluation is made of seismic risk in constructing buildings and no zoning takes place. It means that building codes are not written, and even if they do exist they are difficult, or impossible, to enforce. It means the choice between building robustly or building cheaply is not a choice at all.

Haiti is a tragic illustration of this. Weak building materials and poor construction standards share much of the blame for the grotesque numbers of fatalities, injured and internally displaced people.

Of course it's complicated. Earthquake shaking is a complex process and the chain of causation from earthquake source magnitude through infrastructural damage to human harm involves factors like the type of earthquake fault, its orientation, the hardness of bedrock or presence of wet soil, and so on. A lot also depends on the time of day the earthquake strikes in terms of how many people are inside buildings that could collapse. Population density, distance from the epicenter, and the depth of the rupture are the most important factors of all.

Nevertheless, those countries most at risk of seismic tragedy are not simply those on tectonic plate boundaries, but also those with the least money to spend on protecting themselves.

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Colin Stark.

[John317]

Quote:

Tom Wetmore: What if ALL really took Jesus' words in Matthew 25 seriously? What if ALL Christians treated sexual sinners as Jesus did?

I agree that we all ought to treat sexual sinners the same as Jesus did. How did He treat them? He didn't condemn them or tell them they were forever lost, but He also didn't ignore their sins. He gave them courage that God would help them overcome their sins so they wouldn't have to keep practicing them. He said that those who practice sin are slaves of sin and that He came in order to give us freedom from sin.

There's a real sense in which Jesus' words are also found in the writings of Paul and John. They are just as legitmate instructions to the church on the treatment of sexual sinners as the words of Jesus that are recorded in the Gospels. The Holy Spirit inspired those letters to the church in order to help the church understand how to deal with all kinds of situations, including sexual sins in the church.

I have two brothers who had severe sexual problems for many years. One of them served time in jail for them, and the other should have served time. I also have struggled with sexual sins for over 30 years, and have only been free of them for the last 4 or so years now. I just began to be free only a few months before coming to the Adventist Forum. I can honestly say that during all the years that I was struggling with sexual sins, no one in the church ever made me feel condemned or that God didn't love me. In fact, except for my parents, no one ever said anything to me about it.

How, then, should we treat sexual sinners? We should talk to them as we would to anyone else, treat them with respect and love, and pray for them. When we have their trust and confidence, we could talk to them about their problems if they want to talk about them. Invite them to your home and let them see that you genuinely care for them and are interested in them as individuals and as brothers in Christ.

[olger]

Indeed.

Jesus didn't tell the adulterous woman that she could continue her moral failures as long as she volunteered at the soup kitchen.

[John317]

Quote:

Tom Wetmore:

Why don't we want to talk about poverty?

It sounds like you want to tell us why we don't want to talk about poverty. I'd really like to hear your thoughts about that, Tom.

First off, who is it that you beleive doesn't want to talk about it?

[doug yowell]

Quote:

Tom Wetmore:

Why don't we want to talk about poverty?

It sounds like you want to tell us why we don't want to talk about poverty. I'd really like to hear your thoughts about that, Tom.

First off, who is it that you beleive doesn't want to talk about it?

Yup. Looks like you're not making yourself very clear on this. Tom. Are you sure you understand exactly the point you're trying to get across? You say, yes. I say, no. You say, why. I say, I don't know.

[teresaq]

Quote:

Tom Wetmore:

Why don't we want to talk about poverty?

Originally Posted By: John317

It sounds like you want to tell us why we don't want to talk about poverty. I'd really like to hear your thoughts about that, Tom.

First off, who is it that you beleive doesn't want to talk about it?

Yup. Looks like you're not making yourself very clear on this. Tom. Are you sure you understand exactly the point you're trying to get across?

im not real sure why people think insults win the argument.

all it tells me is that the person does not have a leg to stand on, so they have to resort to insults.

[teresaq]

back to the topic:

Men despise the unfortunate and the poor. They do not appreciate the fact that it is moral worth that makes men of value with God. God estimates character with a different measure from the world. Some men are lifted up with pride when they attain positions of honor. They act as though they were the lords of creation, but a man in the sight of heaven is one who is connected with Christ, who walks in humility of mind, and serves God from the principle of love. He knows who are committing robbery toward him in withholding their means from his cause, or in withholding their tact and ability from his service. He knows who have buried their talents in the earth.{RH, October 1, 1889 par. 8}

By beholding, we become changed. Through close study and earnest contemplation of the character of Christ, his image is reflected in our own lives, and a higher tone is imparted to the spirituality of the church. If the truth of God has not transformed our character into the likeness of Christ,

all our professed knowledge of him and the truth is but as sounding brass and a tinkling cymbal. {RH, August 4, 1891 par. 3}

"Hear the word of the Lord, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah. To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt-offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand to tread my courts? Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them. And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you; yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood. Wash ye, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: but if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword; for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it." {RH, August 4, 1891 par. 4}

[phkrause]

Not wanting to be confrontational, but really haven't read anyone saying any insulting words.

pk

[olger]

olger informs Teresa that he observes no insults, and returns to painting the trailer walls.

blesings,

oG

[Dr. Shane]

I have just spent my Sunday helping a poor family add on to their home so they can adopt their nieces who are in foster care. Actually, our entire Sabbath School class is doing this project. This is the third Sunday I have spent. Next Sunday and we should have it finished.

I have also worked with gay people in the past. I see no reason why a person cannot help gay people learn about Christ and help poor people at the same time.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I have just spent my Sunday helping a poor family add on to their home so they can adopt their nieces who are in foster care. Actually, our entire Sabbath School class is doing this project. This is the third Sunday I have spent. Next Sunday and we should have it finished.

I have also worked with gay people in the past. I see no reason why a person cannot help gay people learn about Christ and help poor people at the same time.

Why didn't you spend time on the Sabbath AND Sunday helping add on to the home? It could have been done in half the time.

[doug yowell]

I have just spent my Sunday helping a poor family add on to their home so they can adopt their nieces who are in foster care. Actually, our entire Sabbath School class is doing this project. This is the third Sunday I have spent. Next Sunday and we should have it finished.

I have also worked with gay people in the past. I see no reason why a person cannot help gay people learn about Christ and help poor people at the same time.

Shane, I think that if you spent less time helping the poor you'd have more time to consider what you're not doing for the poor. At least I think that's what this thread is trying to convey??? And if the poor you are helping are also gay then forget it altogether.Get your priorities straight!or something.

[teresaq]

reminds me of that saying, "methinks he doth protest too much". there must have been a lot of evidence for it.

[lazarus]

In my 50-year observation, one of premiere reasons that progressives extol humanitarian outreach is that they find themselves embarrassed by theological outreach.

The interesting the thing, however, is that many conservatives abhor humanitarian outreach and will "preach" their hearts out but remain ineffective. Clearly, Jesus combined the two.

In almost every community there are large numbers who do not listen to the preaching of God's word or attend any religious service. If they are reached by the gospel, it must be carried to their homes. Often the relief of their physical needs is the only avenue by which they can be approached.

[Dr. Shane]

I don't know who these "conservatives" are that abhor humanitarian outreach. Seventh-day Adventists are very active in humanitarian outreach and have been for many years.

[bonnie]

I don't know who these "conservatives" are that abhor humanitarian outreach. Seventh-day Adventists are very active in humanitarian outreach and have been for many years.

Statistically conservatives give more and earn less.I believe they even donate more blood

[doug yowell]

The interesting the thing, however, is that many conservatives abhor humanitarian outreach and will "preach" their hearts out but remain ineffective.

Name two.

[lazarus]

Originally Posted By: lazarus

The interesting the thing, however, is that many conservatives abhor humanitarian outreach and will "preach" their hearts out but remain ineffective.

Name two.

I'll give you two when we get the names of the progressives embarrassed by theological outreach.

[jasd]

>>...progressives embarrassed by theological outreach.<<

Heavens!—indeed, should that “theological outreach” constitute ‘liberation theology’, yes?

Oh my! :-o