Romans 7:14 - 8:2 - The three laws...

[Twilight]

What are they?

And how do you see them fitting into the practical Christian walk?

Over to you...

Mark :-)

[Robert]

law of my mind (will power)

law of sin (our bent to self)

law of the Spirit

[Twilight]

I would say Robert that the summary of the three laws are in the following verses:

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

1. Law of God in the mind.

2. Law of Sin in the flesh.

These are pre-conversion.

At conversion a new law, that is stronger than the old "law of sin in the flesh", is introduced:

3. Law of the Spirit of life.

This new law, now empowers the believer to overcome the old law of sin in ones "flesh".

Your thoughts?

Mark

[Twilight]

If you notice Dgrimm, there are only two laws operating until we are born again.

Profound...

[Twilight]

You are welcome Dgrimm. :-)

[Robert]

1. Law of God in the mind.

2. Law of Sin in the flesh.

These are pre-conversion.

Your thoughts?

Mark

A] After conversion we still have the law of sin in our memebers.

B] Before conversion our minds are not in harmony with God's law. Proof: Rom 8:7

"The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be"

The uncoverted mind hates God's law....The Pharisee's claimed that they loved God's law, but Jesus tells us that everything they did outwardly was to be seen of men. They loved the best seats...to be called Rabbi, etc. They loved their position, but they were totally out of harmony with the law.

The man of Romans 7 loves the law written in the heart (mind). The problem is he hasn't learned to give these desires to live the good life over to God. So he tries to used "the law of (his) mind" to defeat "the law of sin" dwelling in his members. Who wins? The law of sin, but that doesn't mean that he is not converted.

Here's another verse:

Eph 2:3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts.

Note, this is preconversion. The mind and nature are in harmony, not so with the man of Romans 7. His mind has the law written in it, but when it comes to temptation he hasn't learned to give his desires for righteousness over to God. If he did "the law of the Spirit" could defeat "the law of sin" and he could experience genuine fruit.

[Robert]

"The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be"

Rom 7:22 In my mind, I am happy with God's law. [NCV]

"For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man."

That phrase, "inward man", always refers to the converted man.

2 Cor 4:16 Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day.

So again the man of Romans 7 is converted, but he hasn't learned how to walk in the spirit. Is there any condemnation? No! See Romans 8:1

This doesn't deny the importance of walking in the spirit.

[Guest]

This doesn't deny the importance of walking in the spirit.

That's exactly what it does. If it doesn't matter whether you do or not, then it's not important.

Romans 8:1 says there is no condemnation IF you walk in the spirit. And only if. The way you put it, there's no condemnation either way, so it doesn't matter. Hence it is not important.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

This doesn't deny the importance of walking in the spirit.

That's exactly what it does. If it doesn't matter whether you do or not, then it's not important.

Romans 8:1 says there is no condemnation IF you walk in the spirit.

Dude....Read the translations....Everyone with a mind knows that the KJV and one or two others added "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit"

Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Otherwise every time you fail there's condemnation....This is yo-yo salvation typically taught by legalists who love to be looked at as holy joes....Like the Pharisee everything they do is to be seen of men.....

[Guest]

I'm afraid you're wrong about that. And I'm going to assume you have a mind. But I could be wrong. The more liberal translations have taken it out.

Rom 8:1 There is, then, now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit; [Young's Literal Translation]

Rom 8:1 Consequently nothing is condemnation now to those in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to flesh but according to Spirit. {ACV}

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. {UKJV}

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

{KJ2000}

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. {NKJV}

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

{KJV}

Rom 8:1 Ahora, pues, ninguna condenación hay para los que están en Cristo Jesús, los que no andan conforme a la carne, sino conforme al Espíritu. {RVR}

There is therefore now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. {Webster's Bible}

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Messiah Yeshua, who don't walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. {HNV}

[Robert]

I'm afraid you're wrong about that. And I'm going to assume you have a mind. But I could be wrong. The more liberal translations have taken it out.

Rom 8:1 There is, then, now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit; [Young's Literal Translation]

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus....

The word “therefore” immediately tells me that this verse is connected with the previous statements that Paul made. What did Paul say previously to verse 1 of chapter 8? Remember, there were no chapter and verse divisions when Paul wrote. What is he saying? He has just told us in Romans 7:14-25 that there is a problem in his life, a problem in every human life. And that is: sin dwells in us. The law of sin is in our members. And in Romans 7:24 he cries out in desperation:

What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?

I have a body that stands condemned to death because it has sin dwelling in it. Who will deliver me not from my sin, my acts, but from what I am? That is the issue. I want you to know his answer, Romans 7:25:

Thanks be to God — through Jesus Christ our Lord!

Now he didn’t explain any further there. He goes to Romans 8 to explain what he means by, “Thanks be to God — through Jesus Christ our Lord!” In view of this, he says:

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus....

Do you still have sin dwelling in your members? I’m not talking about performance, I’m talking of sin dwelling in you, in your members. The answer is “yes,” because Christians still have sinful flesh. Do you stand condemned? Not in Christ; there is no condemnation for those in Christ.

Now I would like to say for those of you who have the King James version of the Bible, because you will notice, those of you who have a modern translation like the NIV, Good News Bible, or any contemporary version, the second half of verse one from the King James is not there:

...who do walk not according to the flesh [the sinful nature], but according to the Spirit.

The most reliable manuscripts do not have that second part. I am convinced this is a scribal addition, not mainly because of the textual fact but because if Paul put that statement there in verse 1, he would be contradicting his own theology. Because he would be saying that we are justified because we are doing something, we are walking in the Spirit. He would be making sanctification the means of justification, which Paul condemned.

Yes, sanctification is the fruit of justification, never the means. That part, “walking in the spirit and not in the flesh,” does belong to verse 4 but not to verse 3. All that Paul says in verse 1 is that, “There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ.” Why is there no condemnation for those who are in Christ? The answer is found in verse 2, because something took place in Christ. Romans 8:2:

...Because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

Please notice it’s not through you, but through Christ. Now the words “set me free” are in the past historic tense, the Aorist. It’s something that has already happened in the past. I have and you have already been freed from the law of sin and death, but we have been freed in Christ.

[Musicman1228]

At the creation of Adam (and later Eve) God made no distinction between 'spirit' and 'flesh'. God molded Adam out of clay (the dust of the ground); this became Adam's flesh, blood and bone. Then God added the 'spirit', in Adam's case N'shama-the communicating spirit that allowed Adam to speak with God directly. The other human beings on earth and the animals had 'nephish', the breath that is in all living things. These two together create the 'soul'. When the body dies the spirit leaves and the 'soul' is extinguished as a light when you throw the switch to off. The 'soul' does not go to heaven to 'be with the Lord'; as in 'absent in the body is to be with the Lord'. Paul believed (as do most Christians today) that spirit is equivalent to soul, which is why Paul believed that when you die you go to heaven 'in spirit' to be with the Lord. This is patently wrong (as is predestination) and not supported in either the OT or in the teachings of Jesus.

So to say (as does Paul) that the 'spirit' is righteous and wants to always do good, and the 'flesh' is sinful and always wants to do evil is bunk, and is not supported by what Jesus taught to His own disciples. If Paul is wrong about this could he just possibly be wrong about other things as well?

[Twilight]

When the third law is introduced, then there is no condemnation.

That is clear because 8:2 follows 7:25.

Also, as Richard has pointed out, the text plainly states that there is no condemnation based on two conditions:

1. That they have the Holy Spirit.

2. That they follow the leading of the Holy Spirit.

The fact that the freedom from condemnation comes in 8:1, shows that in Romans 7:14-24 the condemnation is still in place.

Which implies that the man in Romans 7:14-24, was not in fact "in Christ", because he did not have the third law operating.

That 3rd Law is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

If you do not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, bringing Christ into the heart, through your obedience to the leading of the Spirit, then you are condemned.

Mark :-)

[Robert]

Also, as Richard has pointed out, the text plainly states that there is no condemnation based on two conditions:

2. That they follow the leading of the Holy Spirit

You can have the spirit and sin....So # 1 isn't an issue. As to # 2, nothing is said that you must be walking in the spirit to have no condemnation.

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus..."

Why? Because of what the Spirit does in you? No, look at verse 2: because in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

Note, not in you, but "in Christ" the law of Spirit defeated the law of sin and therefore death.

Now you know the truth....

[Guest]

When the third law is introduced, then there is no condemnation.

That is clear because 8:2 follows 7:25.

Also, as Richard has pointed out, the text plainly states that there is no condemnation based on two conditions:

1. That they have the Holy Spirit.

2. That they follow the leading of the Holy Spirit.

The fact that the freedom from condemnation comes in 8:1, shows that in Romans 7:14-24 the condemnation is still in place.

Which implies that the man in Romans 7:14-24, was not in fact "in Christ", because he did not have the third law operating.

That 3rd Law is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

If you do not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, bringing Christ into the heart, through your obedience to the leading of the Spirit, then you are condemned.

Mark :-)

Amen!!

[karl]

You can have the spirit and sin....

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus..."

Why? Because of what the Spirit does in you? No... but "in Christ" the law of Spirit defeated the law of sin and therefore death.

The Spirit is not a covering Presence. It is a transforming Presence. The reason there is no condemnation is because, by the Spirit, we are so imbued with Christ that we follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth.

We are transformed into keepers of the "law of liberty" by the Spirit.

2Cor 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord....

4:2 [We] have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

[Guest]

Amen karl

[Twilight]

The law of the Spirit of life "in" Christ Jesus has set "me" free from the law of sin and death Robert.

I am not quite sure what you are trying to argue here?

[Just*]

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus..."

Why? Because of what the Spirit does in you? No, look at verse 2: because in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

Note, not in you, but "in Christ" the law of Spirit defeated the law of sin and therefore death.

Now you know the truth....

[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Rom 8:1

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Rom 8:4

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Rom 8:9

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Rom 8:12-14

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. Rom 6:14

Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom 5:18-21

[skyblue888]

There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, for those who are in Christ Jesus are trusting wholly in the all-sufficient merits of His infinite sacrifice to appropriate the blessings of pardon and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. The life will show if indeed they are trusting wholly in the merits of Christ for their salvation and at all times they are acknowledging themselves to be erring, helpless, condemned sinners. Paradox? yes. It is indeed a beautiful Christian paradox!

"Are you in Christ? Not if you do not acknowledge yourselves erring, helpless, condemned sinners." E.G. White, Testimony #31, page 44 (1893 General Conference Bulletin,p.179)

[Twilight]

Amen my friend. :-)

Mark

[WayneV]

I'm afraid you're wrong about that. And I'm going to assume you have a mind. But I could be wrong. The more liberal translations have taken it out.

[Robert]

The Spirit is not a covering Presence. It is a transforming Presence. The reason there is no condemnation is because, by the Spirit, we are so imbued with Christ that we follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth.

I'm sorry, you aren't being true to the end of Romans chapter 7 and Romans 8:1,2. You are adding.... It does not say what you say.

[Robert]

[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Rom 8:1... That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Rom 8:4

You cannot skip verse 2 and be honest with the text. Let's review:

Romans 7:22 For in my inner being [in my spirit...in my inner mind...in my conscience] I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body [i.e., the law of sin - the love of self], waging war against the law of my mind [my converted will power] and making me a prisoner of the law of sin [my bent-to-self] at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death [this body that is dying]? 25 Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! [Note, the man of Romans 7 is thanking God...his faith is in Christ] So then, I myself in my mind [where the principle of love is written] am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature [the law of sin] a slave to the law of sin.

So the man of Romans loves God's law...He thanks Christ for what He has done, but he wants to experience deliverance over his nature. Is there any condemnation for such a believer who loves God's law...who is depending on Christ for his salvation, but who is failing to live the Christian life?

Romans 8:1 1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, [i.e., His imputed righteousness] [why?] 2 because in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

Note, "In Christ" my life from Adam, indwelt with my bent-to-self, was defeated by the law of the Spirit and has legally delivered me from "the law of sin" (in Christ) and hence from death (the 2nd death).

So there's good news for the Christian who is failing....Otherwise, you must be perfectly walking in the Spirit....

EGW states that as long as life shall last we will have besetting sins to overcome....In fact she states that as long as life shall last we will not arrive. Why?

For one the Holy Spirit doesn't automatically take over. You have to learn how to give Him your will power so that He can defeat the law of sin when you are tempted.

This takes time and since no one has it down perfectly then no one has a right to deny the man of Romans 7 salvation based on his failures. It's that simple.

If you do deny him this God given right then you must deny yourselves the same privilege for no one is living Christ's life...a life fully controlled by the Spirit from the cradle to the grave.

[Just*]

You cannot skip verse 2 and be honest with the text. Let's review:

Romans 7:22 For in my inner being [in my spirit...in my inner mind...in my conscience] I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body [i.e., the law of sin - the love of self], waging war against the law of my mind [my converted will power] and making me a prisoner of the law of sin [my bent-to-self] at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death [this body that is dying]? 25 Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! [Note, the man of Romans 7 is thanking God...his faith is in Christ] So then, I myself in my mind [where the principle of love is written] am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature [the law of sin] a slave to the law of sin.

So the man of Romans loves God's law...He thanks Christ for what He has done, but he wants to experience deliverance over his nature. Is there any condemnation for such a believer who loves God's law...who is depending on Christ for his salvation, but who is failing to live the Christian life?

Romans 8:1 1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, [i.e., His imputed righteousness] [why?] 2 because in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

Note, "In Christ" my life from Adam, indwelt with my bent-to-self, was defeated by the law of the Spirit and has legally delivered me from "the law of sin" (in Christ) and hence from death (the 2nd death).

So there's good news for the Christian who is failing....Otherwise, you must be perfectly walking in the Spirit....

EGW states that as long as life shall last we will have besetting sins to overcome....In fact she states that as long as life shall last we will not arrive. Why?

For one the Holy Spirit doesn't automatically take over. You have to learn how to give Him your will power so that He can defeat the law of sin when you are tempted.

This takes time and since no one has it down perfectly then no one has a right to deny the man of Romans 7 salvation based on his failures. It's that simple.

If you do deny him this God given right then you must deny yourselves the same privilege for no one is living Christ's life...a life fully controlled by the Spirit from the cradle to the grave.

...for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not. Rom 7:18...

But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Rom 7:23

For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. Rom 7:5

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So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Rom 8:8-9

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Rom 6:11-15

[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. Rom 8:1-2