Romans 7:14 - 8:2 - The three laws...

[Robert]

for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not. Rom 7:18...But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Rom 7:23

Yes, "to will is present with me"....That's the law of my mind.....It's the human will.

What Paul is saying is with the human will I can say no at the mental level, but when the rubber meets the road I fail. Why? Again, the man in Romans 7 is using his will power to defeat sin. Unbelievers love to sin; the man of Romans 7 wants to do good, but he can't because he is trying to say no to "the law of sin" (the power of sin, which is the love of self) using "the law of his mind" (the power of the will) instead of learning to let "the law of the Spirit" (the power of the Spirit) to defeat the law of sin dwelling in him.

The question is - is there any condemnation to the believer who is failing because he hasn't learned to walk in the spirit? The answer is "no". Why? Because of the imputed righteousness of Christ - what Christ did in our humanity 2000 years ago. Again, Rom 8:2 clarifies Rom 8:1

Romans 8:1 say there's no condemnation, period. Other versions have added "who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit." But again, Romans 8:1 tells us there is no condemnation to the struggling believer. Then it answers why:

because in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me [my humanity] free from the law of sin and death.

This is only true in the humanity of Christ. In Christ I was delivered not only from the power of sin, but from the sin nature. Read Paul again: "Set me free from the law of sin"

Are you free from the sin nature? Are you free from indwelling sin? NO! So this can only apply to what is true of us "in Christ".

When you become a believer your sin nature remains....It doesn't improve...it remains as sinful as ever. So if we insist that we have no sin nature after we become Christians, EGW would tell us we are teaching the heresy of the "holy flesh doctrine"

[Just*]

Yes, "to will is present with me"....That's the law of my mind.....It's the human will.

What Paul is saying is with the human will I can say no at the mental level, but when the rubber meets the road I fail. Why? Again, the man in Romans 7 is using his will power to defeat sin. Unbelievers love to sin; the man of Romans 7 wants to do good, but he can't because he is trying to say no to "the law of sin" (the power of sin, which is the love of self) using "the law of his mind" (the power of the will) instead of learning to let "the law of the Spirit" (the power of the Spirit) to defeat the law of sin dwelling in him.

[Robert]

[This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. Gal 5:16

Apparently none of us are fully walking in the Spirit or we would be living Christ's life.* Hence our experience is a mixture of the man of Romans 7 & 8. Is there condemnation because we experience Romans 7?

* earthly life, however long, honored, or useful it may be, is but childhood, frail, imperfect, and undeveloped. Manhood, with its full, perfect, glorious development, will come, [when?] when, freed from the taint of sin [i.e., the law of sin], we stand among the redeemed throng. Then we shall enjoy a life which measures with the life of God, and through everlasting ages we shall go on increasing in wisdom and knowledge. [EGW]

Why "then"? will "we shall enjoy a life which measures with the life of God"? Why not now? The reason EGW gives is "the taint of sin". What does that mean? The same as "the law of sin". To be tainted with sin means to be defiled or polluted with sin.

Jack puts it this way: Because man by nature is “shapen in iniquity,” all the righteousness produced by him through his own efforts [the law of my mind] is like filthy rags before God, because it is polluted with self-love [sin].

[Just*]

Because man by nature is “shapen in iniquity,” all the righteousness produced by him through his own efforts [the law of my mind] is like filthy rags before God, because it is polluted with self-love [sin].

"Even John, the beloved disciple, the one who most fully reflected the likeness of the Saviour, did not naturally possess that loveliness of character. He was not only self-assertive and ambitious for honor, but impetuous, and resentful under injuries. But as the character of the Divine One was manifested to him, he saw his own deficiency and was humbled by the knowledge. The strength and patience, the power and tenderness, the majesty and meekness, that he beheld in the daily life of the Son of God, filled his soul with admiration and love. Day by day his heart was drawn out toward Christ, until he lost sight of self in love for his Master. His resentful, ambitious temper was yielded to the molding power of Christ. The regenerating influence of the Holy Spirit renewed his heart. The power of the love of Christ wrought a transformation of character. This is the sure result of union with Jesus. When Christ abides in the heart, the whole nature is transformed. Christ's Spirit, His love, softens the heart, subdues the soul, and raises the thoughts and desires toward God and heaven." {SC 73.1}

[Robert]

Day by day his heart was drawn out toward Christ, until he lost sight of self in love for his Master.

Okay, it doesn't matter what John did, what's your experience? EGW tells us that in heaven, "none will think of self", instead we "will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132]

Here everything we do, be it sports, education...is primarily for our benefit. That's a lot of thinking about self. So it comes back to we experience the man of Romans 7. Are we condemned?

[Just*]

Here everything we do, be it sports, education...is primarily for our benefit. That's a lot of thinking about self. So it comes back to we experience the man of Romans 7. Are we condemned?

"Among the followers of our Lord today, as of old, how widespread is this subtle, deceptive sin! How often our service to Christ, our communion with one another, is marred by the secret desire to exalt self! How ready the thought of self-gratulation, and the longing for human approval! It is the love of self, the desire for an easier way than God has appointed that leads to the substitution of human theories and traditions for the divine precepts. To His own disciples the warning words of Christ are spoken, "Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees."

The religion of Christ is sincerity itself. Zeal for God's glory is the motive implanted by the Holy Spirit; and only the effectual working of the Spirit can implant this motive. Only the power of God can banish self-seeking and hypocrisy. This change is the sign of His working. When the faith we accept destroys selfishness and pretense, when it leads us to seek God's glory and not our own, we may know that it is of the right order. "Father, glorify Thy name" (John 12:28), was the keynote of Christ's life, and if we follow Him, this will be the keynote of our life. He commands us to "walk, even as He walked;" and "hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments." 1 John 2:6, 3. {DA 409.3}

[Robert]

Only the power of God can banish self-seeking...

True, now is all self-seeking gone from your life or do you still have the man of Romans' 7 experience? Are you free from your bent-to-self?

[Just*]

Originally Posted By: Just*

Only the power of God can banish self-seeking...

True, now is all self-seeking gone from your life or do you still have the man of Romans' 7 experience? Are you free from your bent-to-self?

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom 6:11

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. Rom 6:6

[Robert]

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom 6:11 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. Rom 6:6

You didn't answer my question.

[Just*]

Originally Posted By: Just*

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom 6:11 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. Rom 6:6

You didn't answer my question.

Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. 2 Cor 4:10

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. Col 3:3

[Robert]

Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. 2 Cor 4:10 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. Col 3:3

Okay...you aren't interested in having a intelligent discussion....Goodbye....

[Just*]

Originally Posted By: Just*

Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. 2 Cor 4:10 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. Col 3:3

Okay...you aren't interested in having a intelligent dis pals cussion....Goodbye....

I do not speak English pals

[Guest]