The "Nephilim" have arrived!!

[abelisle]

With the publication of Danielle Trussoni's Angelologythe nephilim have arrived in a big way in the consciousness of the secular world.

Genesis Chapter 6, verses 1 through 4 mentions Nephilim:

Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose. Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years." The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.

They are mentioned again in Numbers chapter 13, verses 32–33, in a description of the inhabitants of Hebron:

So they gave out to the sons of Israel a bad report of the land which they had spied out, saying, "The land through which we have gone, in spying it out, is a land that devours its inhabitants; and all the people whom we saw in it are men of great size. There also we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak are part of the Nephilim); and we became like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight.

There are four common views[citation needed] regarding the identity of the Nephilim.

1)They were the hybrid offspring of fallen angels and human women.

2)They were the offspring of descendants of Seth with those of Cain.

3)Webster's 1913 Dictionary defines the word simply as "Giant." Thus, any especially tall, powerful, large, or mighty man would be described in ancient times as Nephilim. Nephilim may simply mean "giant," champion, or strong man.

4)They are not historical figures and are ancient imagery with questionable meaning

Angelology by Danielle Trussoni, a novel about nephilim and reviewed on the first page of the NYTimes Book Review came out yesterday. I have trouble putting it down. It's a fascinating imaginary look at how they would look like, behave and interact socially. Technically speaking, they are fallen angels or as some refer to as "Grigori" - the Watchers who failed to do what they were commanded to do.

The Watchers (from Greek egrḗgoroi (ἐγρήγοροι)) or Grigori are a group of fallen angels told of in Biblical apocrypha who mated with human females, giving rise to a race of hybrids known as the Nephilim, who are also mentioned in Genesis 6:4. The Watchers appear in Biblical apocrypha, in the first and second books of Enoch and Jubilees. The word "Grigori" derives from the Slavonic Second Book of Enoch.

I wonder how many of us believe in guardian angels? and as C.S. Lewis proposed, demonic angels in his "Screwtape Letters"? Why do we have such a fascination with these winged beings? Do we aspire to one day also have wings and be able to fly? But how about the really big question that Bible believers have, which is "How did 1/3 of all the angels manage to screw up in a perfect place (namely heaven)?

So many questions. So few answers.

Any angelologists out there?

Alex

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Sounds like an interesting book. I always thought the Nephilim were the result of fallen angels mating with human females....they could do that.

[oldsailor29]

Sounds like an interesting book. I always thought the Nephilim were the result of fallen angels mating with human females....they could do that.

I think that is correct Pam, and the reason for the flood. And they will do it again.

[Guest]

Who says they will do it again OS?

[John317]

Quote:

abelisle: Do we aspire to one day also have wings and be able to fly?

I believe that "wings" are a symbol to help mankind understand the travel of angels, who do "fly" through space, but we understand now that the speed at which they travel is so fast that it's impossible for "wings" to be the reason for the movement. They travel much faster than the speed of light, so something is involved other than bird-like wings.

Yes, we will travel fast like the angels, and it could be that we will have something that might be called wings, but I'm sure that we will be surprised to find out exactly what it is all about. We probably can't even begin to conceive of the reality.

Quote:

abelisle: But how about the really big question that Bible believers have, which is "How did 1/3 of all the angels manage to screw up in a perfect place (namely heaven)?

You've no doubt read Patriarchs and Prophets and the book Great Controversy about what occurred in heaven. We're not likely to learn any more than what the Bible and those books say about this subject. Why don't those sources give you enough information and "reason"? There was no "cause" for sin. Sin is without "reason." It came as a result of a perfect, extremely intelligent being who freely chose to begin thinking a certain way-- namely, to entertain jealousy, envy, selfishness, and finally dishonesty and murder. He was initially as much like God as any creature could possibly be.

[John317]

Quote:

rudywoofs: Sounds like an interesting book. I always thought the Nephilim were the result of fallen angels mating with human females....they could do that.

Quote:

oldsailor29: I think that is correct Pam, and the reason for the flood. And they will do it again.

That's the stuff of legend but not of biblical history. Jesus indicated that angels can't marry and reproduce. The reason was due to the evil of all mankind at that time, except for very few. Their wickedness was not due to the fact that angels reproduced with women, though.

They obviously don't have reproduction organs. And even if they did have a penis and testicals, it would be impossible for them to produce sperm that would be compatible with the eggs of human women. Angels are a different species of creature, so that it would be like trying to mate a monkey with a pig. It just wouldn't work.

However, it is true that demons have something like "sex" with human women, but they don't ejaculate any fluid into them. I communicated with a former member of the Adventist Forum who told me that she had "sex" with demons-- she called him her "lover" and believed it to be "Lucifer"-- and I know that there are many other women who have had the same kind of experiences. But there is no indication that these experiences have ever resulted in pregnancy or even in a fallen angel putting a sex organ inside a woman. All that is apparently happening is that these demons manipulate the woman's mind and body so that they have sexual pleasure.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

They obviously don't have reproduction organs. And even if they did have a penis and testicals, it would be impossible for them to produce sperm that would be compatible with the eggs of human women. Angels are a different species of creature, so that it would be like trying to mate a monkey with a pig. It just wouldn't work.

However, it is true that demons have something like "sex" with human women, but they don't ejaculate any fluid into them.

**snip**

But there is no indication that these experiences have ever resulted in pregnancy or even in a fallen angel putting a sex organ inside a woman. All that is apparently happening is that these demons manipulate the woman's mind and body so that they have sexual pleasure. It's a stupid, foolish, very dangerous thing to do.

You don't know that for certain. It is only supposition on your part.

[John317]

Quote:

abelisle: I wonder how many of us believe in guardian angels? and as C.S. Lewis proposed, demonic angels in his "Screwtape Letters"?

Yes, I do believe in guardian angels, as well as "recording angels." God assigns them to believers and to those who are seeking God. They actually influence our thinking and feelings when we want them to or when they know we are sincerely seeking for truth. They work together with the Holy Spirit to enlighten our minds and help us understand the Bible-- but they don't do it unless people accept the urging of the Holy Spirit and want more truth.

C.S Lewis' book is excellent. He had some great insights. It is almost as if he had read what Ellen White wrote about the evil angels.

Quote:

abelisle: Why do we have such a fascination with these winged beings? .... So many questions. So few answers.

Have you read Ellen White's compilation on angels, called, The Truth About Angels? It a wonderful, even an exciting, book for anyone interested in this subject. Angels used to wake up Ellen White in the early morning and tell her to write the things that God had shown her. That was in Northern California and only about 100 years ago!!

[John317]

Quote:

rudywoofs:

You don't know that for certain. It is only supposition on your part.

Don't know what for certain? What points are you referring to?

Tell what you know. Present your evidence and show your reasoning. If I am wrong-- and I could be-- I will change my thinking about it.

[abelisle]

I think John is referring to the "incubus" and "succubus" - terms used for demonic angels who specialize in sexual temptations, seduction and behavior. What is interesting is that as far as I know, the official Adventist exegetical analysis of this simply refers to the men being of Cain's lineage cohabiting with females from the "good' side (Seth and Enoch?)

But what it fails to explain is the other references to "the heroes of old, men of renown" and the giants of Bashan and Og?

Plus one more thing - do we really believe in the real preternatural presence of angels, good ones and demonic ones? And if so, how do they play into our understanding of possession (MPD's?) and other forms of mental illness?

Alex

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I'm referring to the parts I highlighted.

I'm not allowed to post my "evidence"... and *I* could be wrong, as well. But I don't think so.

[abelisle]

"Yes, I do believe in guardian angels, as well as "recording angels." God assigns them to believers and to those who are seeking God. They actually influence our thinking and feelings when we want them to or when they know we are sincerely seeking for truth. They work together with the Holy Spirit to enlighten our minds and help us understand the Bible-- but they don't do it unless people accept the urging of the Holy Spirit and want more truth" John317

What are the Biblical references for this? I've always been curious about this.

Alex

[abelisle]

Pam,

In light of what you are intimating, I think of Heb 13:2 Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by this some have entertained angels without knowing it.

Since this is possible, what would stop angels from having sexual relations with humans? Didn't Lot attempt to protect angels in the form of men who were desired sexually by the inhabitants of Sodom?

Alex

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Pam,

In light of what you are intimating, I think of Heb 13:2 Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by this some have entertained angels without knowing it.

Since this is possible, what would stop angels from having sexual relations with humans? Didn't Lot attempt to protect angels in the form of men who were desired sexually by the inhabitants of Sodom?

Alex

Alex, that quote from Hebrews is one that I have thought about, too, when thinking of the possibility of angels having sexual relations with human women resulting in the Nephilim. The angels with Lot ate food, and presumably did other human functioning, ergo demonic angels could also assume the guise of humanity. There's no reason to think that demonic angels could *not* have sexual relations with humans, with resultant "mutant" beings created. Demons can have sexual prowess. And I know that for a fact.

Persons with MPD usually know who their alters are. Not always, but usually. They can tell the difference between an alter and a demon.

[olger]

That's messed up,

oG

[John317]

Quote:

abelisle: ..Plus one more thing - do we really believe in the real preternatural presence of angels, good ones and demonic ones?

Satan would love nothing more than for you to disbelieve in his existence. But yes, we do really believe in real angels, both good and bad ones-- just like the Bible teaches. At least I do, as do most Christians in general and Seventh-day Adventists in particular. I've lived most of my life in Loma Linda where about 40% of the town is SDA, and I have never met an SDA here who didn't believe in God and the angels.

Quote:

And if so, how do they play into our understanding of possession (MPD's?) and other forms of mental illness?

There's a big difference between possession and mental illness. Sometimes the possessed are mentally ill but they are two different things. Satan does take advantage of people's mental and emotional weaknesses, though.

[John317]

In light of what you are intimating, I think of Heb 13:2 Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by this some have entertained angels without knowing it.

Since this is possible, what would stop angels from having sexual relations with humans? Didn't Lot attempt to protect angels in the form of men who were desired sexually by the inhabitants of Sodom?

How does that follow? Why does Heb. 13: 2 mean to you that angels would or could have sexual relations with humans? You mean because they can appear in human form?

Just because the loyal angels are beautiful doesn't mean they are interested in sex with humans. They are not really human anyway, nor would a good angel even think of doing something like that. Good angels are pure in their thinking and completely loyal to God. But they are also of an entirely different species. It's about the same difference as between humans and non-human animals. People could have sex with a pig or sheep, but of course there would no progeny. It's the same with the evil angels. They might do evil things with women but they can't impregnate one. God didn't make them with the equipment, although Satan could make it appear they they were men with normal male bodies. But it wouldn't be genuine, which of course means they couldn't reproduce.

[abelisle]

A couple of things:

1) I'd still like to get that Biblical reference for what you said about "guardian" and "recording" angels. Is our belief more traditional, anecdotal and EGW?

2) I agree that angels and humans are probably different species of created beings but that wouldn't stop them from having sexual relations, just no progeny. There's too much literary and historical anecdotal evidence that describes these relationships. Ex. "incubi", "succubi"

3) Considering our(Adventist) strong belief in angels, why haven't we done more research into angelology? The Bible suggests a hierarchal structure for angels i.e. archangels, cherubim, seraphim, principalities, powers etc.

4) If angels can easily morph into humans, what roles will they play in last day events. We might not have modern day "nephilim" walking around but it seems there is an abundance of demonic angels who are more than capable of altering everyday events?

5) Lastly, I'm predicting that when this book Angelology is made into a movie (there's a big fight going on right now as I am writing this, for the movie rights to this book) It will be as big or bigger than The DaVinci Code. There was quite a piqued interest in the secular community about what is for them such fascinating esoteria. Even Adventists will be pulled into this as some where when Dale Brown's fictional work was being actively deconstructed.

Alex

[abelisle]

This is what I've found. I wish we had more solid Biblical references.

Ellen G. White Estate, Devotional for November 2

Visit us at http://www.whiteestate.org

-----------------------------------------------------------

We shall Meet Our Guardian Angels

He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.

Ps. 91:11.

Not until the providences of God are seen in the light of eternity shall

we understand what we owe to the care and interposition of His angels.

Celestial beings have taken an active part in the affairs of men. They

have appeared in garments that shone as the lightning; they have come as

men, in the garb of wayfarers. They have accepted the hospitalities of

human homes; they acted as guides to benighted travelers. They have

thwarted the spoiler's purpose and turned aside the stroke of the

destroyer.

Though the rulers of this world know it not, yet often in their councils

angels have been spokesmen. Human eyes have looked upon them. Human ears

have listened to their appeals. In the council hall and the court of

justice, heavenly messengers have pleaded the cause of the persecuted

and oppressed. They have defeated purposes and arrested evils that would

have brought wrong and suffering to God's children. To the students in

the heavenly school, all this will be unfolded.

Every redeemed one will understand the ministry of angels in his own

life. The angel who was his guardian from his earliest moment; the angel

who watched his steps, and covered his head in the day of peril; the

angel who was with him in the valley of the shadow of death, who marked

his resting place, who was the first to greet him in the resurrection

morning--what will it be to hold converse with him, and to learn the

history of divine interposition in the individual life, of heavenly

co-operation in every work for humanity!

With the word of God in his hands, every human being, wherever his lot

in life may be cast, may have such companionship as he shall choose. In

its pages he may hold converse with the noblest and best of the human

race, and may listen to the voice of the Eternal as He speaks with men.

As he studies and meditates upon the themes into which "the angels

desire to look" (1 Peter 1:12), he may have their companionship.

>From Maranatha - Page 314

Alex

[abelisle]

But this next reference can easily supply ammunition for the Arians among us:

One Superior to Angels

Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance

obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said

he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I

will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he

bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he said, And let all the

angels of God worship him. Heb. 1:4-6.

[John317]

Quote:

abelisle: This is what I've found. I wish we had more solid Biblical references.

Ellen G. White Estate, Devotional for November 2

Visit us at http://www.whiteestate.org

-----------------------------------------------------------

We shall Meet Our Guardian Angels

He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.

Ps. 91:11.

Yes, that's good. I don't know about you but after studying both the Bible and Ellen White's life and writings, I have no doubt but that both were inspired of God. He showed Ellen White over 2000 dreams and visions. But each person must persuaded of this in his own mind.

She wrote a great deal more about angels. If are you interested, there's a whole book of her writings on angels, called, The Truth About Angels. I believe I mentioned it earlier on this thread. I just got it a couple of weeks ago, and find it full of exciting things about them.

Reading fiction about angels is different, of course, than reading sources that tell the truth about them. It depends on how realistic it is and how much of the fiction is based on what the Bible says, rather than on mythical stories or merely someone's imagination. I enjoy the classics and good fiction, since I graduated at CA State U in English Lit, but for the last few years, I haven't read much of it because of my increased interest in the Bible.

I try to write a lot on the Forum, but lately I've had some problems with my diabetes that prevent me from being able to spend as much time at the computer as I'd like. Otherwise, I'd have been glad by this time already to try and answer all your questions about angels. I'll try to do that over the next few days as I have opportunity.

[John317]

Quote:

abelisle: But this next reference can easily supply ammunition for the Arians among us:

One Superior to Angels

Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance

obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said

he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I

will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he

bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he said, And let all the

angels of God worship him. Heb. 1:4-6.

The words, "Being made," is a single Greek participle that is usually translated, "having become." It may appear to refer to Christ's having been "made" or "created," but that is not the idea here.

I'll come back to this as I can, but for now, I'd like to point out that in verse 6, God is represented as commanding all the angels to worship Christ. God would not do that if Christ were a creature, since elsewhere the Bible prohibits the worship of any created beings. Heb. 1: 2, 3 (among others) also shows us that Chirst is actually God-- equal with the Father. It is by Christ's own power that He uphold the universe, and the original language (as you can see by reading some good translations) says that Christ is an exact copy of the Father's nature, or essence. John 1: 1 shows us that there was never a time when the pre-existent Christ was not in close association with the Deity.

[BobRyan]

That's the stuff of legend but not of biblical history. Jesus indicated that angels can't marry and reproduce. The reason was due to the evil of all mankind at that time, except for very few. Their wickedness was not due to the fact that angels reproduced with women, though.

... Angels are a different species of creature, so that it would be like trying to mate a monkey with a pig. It just wouldn't work.

That much is true.

Even non-SDA Bible scholars are aware that the Genesis 6 discussion is about being "unequally yoked" with unbelievers. Nothing at all there about angels or fallen angels (demons) mating with humans.

in Christ,

Bob

[oldsailor29]

Originally Posted By: John317

That's the stuff of legend but not of biblical history. Jesus indicated that angels can't marry and reproduce. The reason was due to the evil of all mankind at that time, except for very few. Their wickedness was not due to the fact that angels reproduced with women, though.

... Angels are a different species of creature, so that it would be like trying to mate a monkey with a pig. It just wouldn't work.

That much is true.

Even non-SDA Bible scholars are aware that the Genesis 6 discussion is about being "unequally yoked" with unbelievers. Nothing at all there about angels or fallen angels (demons) mating with humans.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob - are you implying that non-SDA Bible scholars are more authoritative that SDAs? Unequally yoked is a good homily, but hardly an exegetical interpretation. At the time of the flood, there were only one class of being which were referred to as sons of God. Sons of God were the beings which God created, not their offspring. After Adam died, there were only one group of beings on earth which were referred to as sons of God.

While it is true that we can be called sons of God, that declaration came much later in our history.

Another reason the "sons of God" were not the descendants of Seth, the actions of these "sons of God" were not actions of righteous men. Righteous men would not be unequally yoked, and would not just take wives without their consent. And unrighteous men wouldn't be called "sons of God." Only the fallen angels could accurately be known as "sons of God."

The dainty sensitivities of God's chosen people had to be protected, so the Bible copying and reading priesthood used several euphemisms to make some of the stories more civil. And the interpretation of this story was made more acceptable by saying "sons of God" referred to descendants of Seth.

So John317 - some legends are history, and I believe this is one of them. An inability to breed must not have been that to which Jesus referred, when he said we would be like the angels. And whether angels and mankind can crossbreed is not known for sure. We should not pretend to know that. And I know several OT scholars who interpret Gen 6 this way. Name one? sure. Michael Heiser.

http://www.logos.com/academic/bio/heiser

[BobRyan]

Bob - are you implying that non-SDA Bible scholars are more authoritative that SDAs?