Social Justice

[there buster]

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act in an organized manner with others to hold social institutions accountable — whether government or private — to the common good. The “common good comprises the sum total of social conditions which allow people, either as groups or as individuals, to reach their fulfillment more fully and more easily

uh huh.

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fall into the category of working for social justice.

We hosted a gang awareness night for local parents.

Local school principles, county police gang unit was there, health and human services, states attorneys office. The night was about educating parents about local gangs and how parent scan spot the child's involvement with gangs etc.

So, was it being aware of gangs or hosting the night that was social justice?

Or is social justice helping Spotted Owls spot one another so they can be sociable?

And what does one thing have to do with the other?

Do social conditions "allow people" to reach their fulfillment more fully and more easily?

Is making things "easier" automatically good? And if it isn't good, is it still 'just?'

So far, my point is reinforced. Every attempt at defining 'social justice' only ends up in more confusion.

[lazarus]

So far, my point is reinforced. Every attempt at defining 'social justice' only ends up in more confusion.

Confusion for you does not mean confusion for others.

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So, was it being aware of gangs or hosting the night that was social justice?

Social justice is about working for equality. Helping parents to be more aware of the gangs in their community better equips them in their efforts to raise their kids. A child who has a parent who is better able to keep them away from gangs will be able to make better use of the opportunities that come his way. The church is doing its part in the process of promoting social justice by hosting the meeting

[Stan]

Here is some social justice

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35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.

Here is not.

HUNGRY? Why should my money help you out? You should plan better.

THIRSTY? Why should my money help you out? Wasted all your money on WHAT?

STRANGER? Why should my money help you out? Who cares why you came here?

NAKED? Why should my money help you out? Get a JOB

SICK? Why should my money help you out? You could have looked after yourself better.

PRISON? Why should my money help you out?, You deserve prison, and, actually you SHOULD pay for the expense of keeping you there.

Some folks earned their situation, HOWEVER

If we can not be gracious, then how can we accept God's Grace?

[Stan]

Sometimes, social justice is giving things to people even if they do not deserve it.

It rings true, of God's Grace to us.

[there buster]

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Confusion for you does not mean confusion for others.

Actually, more evidence of your confusion. I am not confused, the definition of social justice is confused, as demonstrated by your own words:

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Social justice is about working for equality. Helpings parents to be more aware of the gangs in their community better equips them in their efforts to raise their kids. A child who has a parent who is better able to keep them away from gangs will be able to make better use of the opportunities that come his way. The church is doing its part in the process of promoting social justice by hosting the meeting

Social justice is about working for equality?

The church is doing its part

in the process

of promoting social justice.

We still have no idea what this thing is that is in the process of being promoted.

A child who

has a parent

who is better able to

keep them away from gangs

will be able to

make better use

of the opportunities that come his way.

Lots of verbiage, but still nothing even close to identifying "social justice." The sentences barely parse, much less convey actual meaning. Try diagramming them, and the confusion becomes even more apparent.

As soon as certain topics are raised, the concrete melts into the abstract and no one seems able to think of turns of speech that are not hackneyed: prose consists less and less of words chosen for the sake of their meaning, and more and more of phrases tacked together like the sections of a prefabricated henhouse. George Orwell

Is it about equality? or is it equality?

the slovenliness of our language makes it easier for us to have foolish thoughts. Orwell

[there buster]

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Sometimes, social justice is giving things to people even if they do not deserve it.

That's exactly the point. Justice is about people receiving what they deserve. Mercy/grace are about giving people something something better than they deserve. So 'social justice' is not justice, but something else.

And there's another problem with this. If I give you something of mine that you don't deserve, that's grace. If I take something from someone else to give to you, that is not grace on my part, or on the part of the person from whom it was taken. My taking it is injustice, and calling it 'social justice' compounds the problem.

God's grace doesn't take from anyone else to give to us. God didn't say, I'll kill him so you can live.

[phkrause]

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Sometimes, social justice is giving things to people even if they do not deserve it.

That's exactly the point. Justice is about people receiving what they deserve. Mercy/grace are about giving people something something better than they deserve. So 'social justice' is not justice, but something else.

And there's another problem with this. If I give you something of mine that you don't deserve, that's grace. If I take something from someone else to give to you, that is not grace on my part, or on the part of the person from whom it was taken. My taking it is injustice, and calling it 'social justice' compounds the problem.

God's grace doesn't take from anyone else to give to us. God didn't say, I'll kill him so you can live.

You know personally I think that your not interested in the real answer of what "social justice" is! Your waiting for an answer that suits what you believe it is. You keep saying that no one has defind (sp) the term yet. I think that Stan has quoted a verse from the mouth of Jesus that says it best! (I'm not going to write it here, you can go back and read it, which I'm pretty sure you've already read it) Feeding, clothing etc. is not grace, its helping those in need. When a police officer pulls you over and is ready to write you a $500 ticket for speeding and than says to you "I think I'll let you go" that's grace. When I ask God to forgive me for my sins, and he covers me with his robe of righteousness, that's grace. I also think the things that Lazarus and his church are doing in my book would be under the heading of social justice. God setup a system for the Jews called the year of "Jubilee" just for that purpose. Also read the book of Ruth, you will see this in action. Also the life of Jesus was a life of "Social Justice". Maybe Social Justice is not a good name for it, I don't know, but its the one we have. If you don't agree with the meanings that are presented than by all means tell us what you think it means!

pk

[lazarus]

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Confusion for you does not mean confusion for others.

Actually, more evidence of your confusion. I am not confused, the definition of social justice is confused, as demonstrated by your own words:

Oh man, you got me! I'm glad I don't need well constructed sentences to do what Jesus asked me to. It's all very simple. If you REFUSE to see there's not much I can do.

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much less convey actual meaning.

That's just so obviously not true but it needs to be true for you to stay where you are. PK is of course right.

[lazarus]

the slovenliness of our language makes it easier for us to have foolish thoughts. Orwell

Ouch, got me again.

So the parenting class starts April 7th, will you help me put the chairs out?

[doug yowell]

Here is some social justice

Quote:

35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.

Here is not.

HUNGRY? Why should my money help you out? You should plan better.

THIRSTY? Why should my money help you out? Wasted all your money on WHAT?

STRANGER? Why should my money help you out? Who cares why you came here?

NAKED? Why should my money help you out? Get a JOB

SICK? Why should my money help you out? You could have looked after yourself better.

PRISON? Why should my money help you out?, You deserve prison, and, actually you SHOULD pay for the expense of keeping you there.

Some folks earned their situation, HOWEVER

If we can not be gracious, then how can we accept God's Grace?

Stan, don't you agree that all of the examples that you listed above COULD,at times, be reasons NOT to help?Doesn't God specifically say that IF a brother will not work they should not eat? And the same with some widows? And to not help out laziness? Are you trying to say that "social justice" (??)demands that all must give with NO regard to circumstance or response? Since Tom forbids going political, doesn't the SDA church involve itself in all these ministries? I'm trying to understand where we as SDA's fit in.

[there buster]

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You know personally I think that your not interested in the real answer of what "social justice" is! Your waiting for an answer that suits what you believe it is. You keep saying that no one has defind (sp) the term yet. I think that Stan has quoted a verse from the mouth of Jesus that says it best!

Despite all your ad hominem speculation, you are quite mistaken. I would be quite happy for a cogent, coherent definition of social justice. We have one for justice, but the more people attempt to define social justice, the murkier it gets.

Lots of people "just know" what it is, but cannot explain it in a coherent fashion. A perfect example is your own "life of Jesus was a life of "Social Justice"."

So, was it working in the carpenter shop for thirty years? That was the majority of his life. Was it teaching parables? Was it condemning Pharisees? Was it withering the fig tree? Was it turning water into wine? Were all those things "social justice?" If so, how? If not, why?

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If you don't agree with the meanings that are presented than by all means tell us what you think it means!

As indicated in an earlier post, I've been seeking one for a number of years. Even from supposedly sophisticated sources like Sojourners, the definitions are vague and confused.

I don't know what social justice means. Still searching.

What Orwell says, however, is true: the slovenliness of our language makes it easier for us to have foolish thoughts.

QED

[there buster]

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35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.

Fuzzy thinking doesn't produce clear principles. These are said to individuals, not to societies. But what is a virtue for an individual, can easily be a vice for a society.

Example: I need some work done on my house. I pay more than the going rate to my brother-in-law because I want to help him out.

As a public or even church official, if I do the same thing with church or public money, that is malfeasance.

Inability to face or understand this results in a great deal of 'well-meaning' corruption and tyranny.

[there buster]

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I'm sure, by now, you have noticed how some of the posts are trying to find ways to not help others and using the Bible for their reinforcement.

Imputing motives to those you disagree with is evil.

[bonnie]

HUNGRY? Why should my money help you out? You should plan better.

You are creating questions as if this has been the stated wish of those that disagree with you.

THIRSTY? Why should my money help you out? Wasted all your money on WHAT?

Nope,in your imagination only

STRANGER? Why should my money help you out? Who cares why you came here?

Nope.The question is usually asked when those coming here do not work,make demands and find fault with most everything in the country they came to willingly.

NAKED? Why should my money help you out? Get a JOB

Wrong again.Most of us believe in helping others and are willing to do so. If help is given and they still insist on not working and being naked it would be helpful if they in fact did get a job.

SICK? Why should my money help you out? You could have looked after yourself better.

Wrong again.Any that are sick are offered our medical services.Besides the hospital we have free clinics. Take advantage of them

Even dental services are given here twice a year for those unable to pay.

PRISON? Why should my money help you out?, You deserve prison, and, actually you SHOULD pay for the expense of keeping you there.

Those confined to jail is generally short term. Most are repeat offenders of drunk driving,spousal abuse,bad checks etc.

Most do deserve their sentence. If they had to pay board and room they may alter their behavior that put them there.

Can't think of anything better than those in prison for serious crimes work. To bad there is not enough industry to make that feasible. A portion of wage go to those they have harmed,their families in any and to pay a portion of the cost of their incarceration.

If we can not be gracious, then how can we accept God's Grace?

What does gracious have to do with realizing the consequences of behavior?

I'm sure, by now, you have noticed how some of the posts are trying to find ways to not help others and using the Bible for their reinforcement. I would say they are an apt illustration of the above text and the issue Christ was addressing. Instead of Christ followers finding more ways of showing compassion they attempt to find a way out.....which begs the point...are we really followers of Christ when we do that!! The answer given by Christ would say no, plain and simple. For everyone claiming to follow Christ, your list is a very good summation of the meaning of Christs words.

This is simply a false statement

[abelisle]

Let me take a stab at defining "social justice".

How about doing the right thing according to Biblical principles (or in a pinch what one's conscience deems right) for all members of society.

I seem to detect that the conversation has shifted from theology to politics and in so doing has revealed personal hesitancy to provide care for the underclasses due to one's interpretation of how good government should be implemented and or a hesitancy to help people who are captives of our welfare system?

I read James to clarify my understanding of what true religion is because I see it as being synonymous with a true understanding of social justice i.e "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress . . ." James 1:27

Alex

[there buster]

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the conversation has shifted from theology to politics

Not insofar as I am concerned. I'm asking for a definition.

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has revealed personal hesitancy to provide care for the underclasses

No, that is the conclusion which has been leaped to.

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a hesitancy to help people who are captives of our welfare system

Actually I do that virtually every day. No hesitancy here.[

quote]true religion is . . . synonymous with a true understanding of social justice

[karl]

So social justice = "to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world."

Interesting definition. I would be happy with that one, but have doubts that it actually covers the territory.

I'm good with looking after orphans and widows in their distress, also. I am perfectly willing to do this, but not on somebody else's schedule or demand.

This will not fly:

"We want to help out Frankie because, you know, he's having a rough time. But we used up all of our money at the movies. We decided that because you didn't waste your money on the movies you could pay for Frankie to have a milkshake with the rest of us."

[Bravus]

So, all of you are telling me that you really, really do support the widows and orphans in a real, tangible way. If so, fantastic! But bonnie already listed all the reasons why quite a large swathe of the widows and orphans don't actually deserve and shouldn't get that support. I don't see the word 'deserving' anywhere in Matthew 25, though... or in most of the other 3000 texts on this topic. They're accountable to God, not us, for their choices - we're accountable to God, not them (and not the government) for what we do for them.

That's what we're saying, that's all we're saying: and I have already specified here in the past the very specific, tangible ways I help those in need.

[olger]

If your benevolence is according to God's will, then why do you eye your brethren so much? Fulfill your duty to God, and pray for one another, so much more as we see the Day approach.

og

[bonnie]

So, all of you are telling me that you really, really do support the widows and orphans in a real, tangible way. If so, fantastic! But bonnie already listed all the reasons why quite a large swathe of the widows and orphans don't actually deserve and shouldn't get that support.

Why not try sticking to what was said instead of what you wished had been said.

[Bravus]

olger: fair enough. I'll stick to exhorting for the good (which I think is every believer's duty) without pointing to particular folk. It'd be lovely if everyone would do the same... but I'm only accountable for me.

bonnie: how can your list be read as anything other than a list of those who we don't have to help? As far as I can tell, that *is* what was said.

[there buster]

A lot of evil surmising about motives, but still no coherent definition of social justice. No addressing of the well-known problem that private virtue can be public vice. Just a lot of feel-good emoting.

[doug yowell]

So, all of you are telling me that you really, really do support the widows and orphans in a real, tangible way. If so, fantastic! But bonnie already listed all the reasons why quite a large swathe of the widows and orphans don't actually deserve and shouldn't get that support. I don't see the word 'deserving' anywhere in Matthew 25, though... or in most of the other 3000 texts on this topic. They're accountable to God, not us, for their choices - we're accountable to God, not them (and not the government) for what we do for them.

That's what we're saying, that's all we're saying: and I have already specified here in the past the very specific, tangible ways I help those in need.

ITim.5:3-16 IIThes.3:10-12 Prov.6:6-11. Read the bigger picture,Bravus. There is no Biblical carte blanche.

[Stan]

Doug Y

In response to your comment re 348131

I had responded, and then lost the entire post.

I know there are times that folks are not strengthened when they end up becoming dependent on others to take care of their needs.

We do have to be careful not to starve 99 sheep because one sheep does not do what is needed.

If we are going to err, it needs to be one the side of Grace.

I would hope that the focus here is more than long-time street people.

[karl]

"Social Justice" proponents: Let's cut through all the beautiful rhetoric and get to it.

What, exactly, is it that gives you or anyone else the right to someone else's life/property?

I'm not asking what gives you, or anyone else, the right to give your/their life/property away. I'm in favor of that.

I'm asking what gives you the right to take life/property from anyone by force? For any reason.

It surely seems to me you are proposing that the end justifies the means. I'm wondering where THAT is written in the Bible?

John Rawls, in "A Theory of Justice" (1971) proposed that, "Each person possesses an inviolability founded on justice that even the welfare of society as a whole cannot override. For this reason justice denies that the loss of freedom for some is made right by a greater good shared by others."