Doug Batchelor Preaches Against Women Pastors

[John317]

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Tom Wetmore: And I might add that "John317" is painting a picture of a less than forthright, dare I say dishonest, representation of the General Conference and the Michigan conference which had been issuing her ordained ministerial credentials for many years before that.

..... Please read that more carefully before you respond.

I don't claim to know what was in your mind or what your intentions were when you wrote it, so I won't even comment on that. But on the basis of its structure, I am certain of the meaning of the sentence. I will take it for granted, though, that you didn't mean to say what the sentence itself signifies. Personally, it truly doesn't matter to me, anyway, and I hold no hard feelings towards you about it.

However, for the sake of discussion, Tom, let's take a minute or so to look at your sentence.

It essentially says, "So-and-So is painting a picture of a dishonest representation of the General Conference." The sentence is saying the picture is dishonest since the GC had actually been issuing ordained ministerial credentials to Ellen White a long time before James White's death.

I had said that Ellen White only received her ordained ministerial credentials after the death of her husband, in 1881, but you are denying this.

Notice you did not say that my picture is of a General Conference which is less than forthright.

Does your sentence say the GC is dishonest? No. It says so-and-so's painting is dishonest. So the sentence is saying the representation is dishonest-- not the GC itself.

If you were going to say the representation shows a dishonest General Conference, you would have had to say something like, "So-and-so is painting a picture of a General Conference which is less than forthright and honest." But of course that is not what you said.

You are saying the picture I have painted is not a forthright and honest represenation of the GC. It is saying the GC and Michigan conference had actually been issuing her ordained ministerial credentials for many years before James White's death.

Do you know how long before Elder White's death the conference issued the credentials to Ellen White? Can you also show the source of your information?

I'd also be interested to know if, before 1881, the conference(s) gave her any pay for her work as an ordained minister? I have heard from very reliable authorities that they didn't.

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Tom Wetmore: I was in fact sticking to the topic and rebutting the evidence and reasoning that you have offered. It is hardly a personal attack on you. I was specifically addressing the fallacy of the argument you have pressed here. (It isn't new or original with you anyway...) The logic of your argument calls into question the validity of the General Conference and the Michigan Conference before that, even issuing ordination credentials to EGW. Either they mean exactly what they say, or they are nothing but a sham, a false document that means nothing. I am not calling you dishonest. I am saying that the argument you have made is painting the Church as less than honest to issue an ordination credential to someone if they knew she had not in fact been ordained.

Of course the church knew that she had never been ordained by the church. I'm sure they weren't accustomed to issuing such credentials without first ordaining the individual. But Ellen White did not want or ask for the church to ordain her. She did not rely on the church for her ordination, since she knew she was directly called by Christ. See 1 SM 32

I seriously doubt if she would have accepted their offer to ordain her in any case. Why not? Because if the organization could "ordain" her, they could take the ordination away from her. And they had absolutely no right to do that since it was God alone who ordained her and placed her in that position and work.

I'd be really interested in learning from you whether you are certain Ellen White was in fact ordained by the church.

[John317]

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CoAspen: Your position has always been "if you don't accept my evidence than you haven't studied enough or you just don't know or...etc...etc"! Wasn't born yesterday, such tactics get rather boring.

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John3: 17: You are wrong here. I'm trying to engage people in real dialogue and exchanges about biblical evidence and the conclusions this evidence leads to. I have no trouble changing my mind about a topic such as this, but I won't change just because people make cutting remarks about people instead of presenting evidence and showing good reasoning.

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CoAspen: Lighten up...smile a little..live longer...this ain't life and death!!!!

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JOHN3:17: OK, I'm smiling-- I'm smiling. You see my picture? That's how I look all the time. Ask anyone on here who's met me in person. If I met you and talked to you, I'd be smiling and friendly all the time, even if we're disagreeing. Ask our good friends, Norman, Cyberguy, Neil D., Stan, or Taylor.

You're quite right it's not "life and death," but then no one has said it is. But it is an important and interesting topic, don't you agree?

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Neil D: If you are going to invoke my name, you may remember, I had a picture taken of you waving in the wrong direction...remember? IOWs, I got a good shot of your backside....Are you sure that you want to invoke MY name here????

Why not? What's that crazy picture you had the surprised waiter take of you and me and Cyberguy got to do with it? That waiter sure thought it was a nutty idea, didn't he?!

Uh, I wouldn't say that was any kind of "good picture," though.

Oh, and I ain't invoking your name. That sounds a little too much like prayer. lol

[John317]

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Neil D: John-

You will not deny that EGW had a 'pastoral' role in our church, right?

No, I wouldn't deny it at all. She was a prophetess of God, but as she herself said on more than one occasion, her work included much more than that of prophet. God put her in her position and in that work. No man or human institution or church had anything to do with installing her in her positions. Check out 1 SM 32.

As I've said before, if every single SDA had rejected her-- or if they all rejected her today-- it wouldn't affect in the slightest the fact that she was a genuine prophet of God. Her authority didn't rest on the church or on any human beings, as does the authority of pastors and elders.

Ministers and elders, on the other hand, are ordained by other church officers, and these in turn can vote to take away their authority. This is what happened to Desmond Ford as well as to A.T. Jones, E.J. Waggoner, Ballanger, and numerous others. Once their authority was taken from them, in the form of their credential, they did not have a job. Their work was over, and they had to go elsewhere. This was never true in the case of Ellen White. Church officers are elected by the church, and therefore they represent the church to the people of God; whereas Ellen White, as a prophet, was God's mouthpiece to His church and to the world. Her authority, unlike the authority of pastors and elders, rested solely upon the decision of God, who selected her-- just as did the authority of Elijah or Samuel.

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Neil D: Your exception to her being an ordained minister is what? What qualifies her to be a minister, but not an ordained minister? Is there a difference between minister, ordained minister, or licensed minister?

I'm just thinking of the Bible's viewpoint. I don't believe the NT allows a woman to govern or rule the local church or to dominate men-- or exercise authority-- within the church.

The Bible uses the word "minister" or "ministry" in quite a few different ways. For instance, according to the NT, a "minister" [Gk. diakonos] is anything from a servant and attendant to a deacon/deaconess or a pastor. As far as women's role in the church is concerned, I see no difference between an ordained minister or a licenssed minister. Those difference are really technical in nature. I don't view the difference between them as anything substanative.

The Bible teaches that women in ministry are not to teach men, or to exercise authority over males.

My objection to women being "ordained ministers" or "ordained pastors" and "ordained elders" is that they are then in positions of authority over males in the church, and this is precisely what the NT prohibits. If we are going to take the NT seriously, we have to deal with-- and accept the authority of-- that inspired text.

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Neil D: Or are we all talking semantics? It looks from this side of the computer that semantics is playing a large part in obscuring the reality of EGW.....

No, I don't see it as primarily semantics, or playing with the meaning of words. If I saw it that way, I don't think it would be worth the bother or the effort.

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Neil D: Either EGW was all messenger of God, and therefore prophet, and pastor and minster, or she was not....which is it?

She was called personally by Jesus Himself to be His messenger when she was a girl, and everything she did in the church afterwards came as a result of-- and was based on-- that personal call by Christ. As she said herself, she was called to do the work of a prophetess but her work included much more than that of prophet. Just because God calls a woman to the position of prophet or judge (as He did in the OT) is no reason for humans to elect women to comparable positions within the church, unless a good, valid reason can be found for doing so in Scripture itself.

[John317]

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Tom Wetmore: ... He [John3:17] is essentially saying that the General Conference was saying that even though she really wasn't a fully qualified and authorized ordained minister with all the privileges and responsibilities of an ordained minister, we will just call her one so that those to whom she may need to present her credentials will think she is one.

How did she become qualified and who authorized and ordained her? This is pivotal.

When I say Ellen White was not given an ordained minister's credential before 1881, I'm not implying in any way that the General Conference, or any other SDA conference, was doing something they knew to be false. In fact, I'm saying just the opposite. The General Conference knew that she was fully qualified and authorized to prophecy [preach] because Jesus Himself had called her to the prophetic ministry. She needed no formal training, nor did she ever need to be ordained by any man in the church. And why not? Because the church aknowledged that Ellen White was different from every other man or woman in the church-- and therefore they made an exception of her by issuing her the credential of an ordained pastor when they knew for a fact that she had NEVER been ordained as every other credentialed man had been.

If this isn't true, please let me know how it's not.

[John317]

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Tom Wetmore: ...She was in fact ordained by the Church, because the General Conference authenticated that fact by issuing the credential. It is self-evident.

Otherwise, we are forced to question all holders of such a credential to be sure they have undergone the ritual blessing before we will accept that they too have really been ordained. That of course is absurd foolishness, just as your arguments minimizing her ordination.

Far from minimizing Ellen White's ordination, I am saying her ordination was from a far higher power than any man or human institution-- it was from Jesus Christ Himself. I'm saying the church recongized that fact and therefore considered it impertinent to think she required them to ordain her. As I said before, her ministry didn't depend on the conferences, as pastors and elders do. There is no pastor or elder who serve in their positions without the authorization of the congregations and conferences. But Ellen White did. She served Jesus Christ as His prophet and His messenger for years without any authorization from the conferences, in the same way that Paul and Peter and John did not require the authorization of any man in order to occupy the positions, and do the work, that Christ had given them.

Let me know if I'm wrong in any of this. If you know for a fact that Ellen White was ordained by men-- i.e., by the laying on of hands-- please show me the evidence.

By the way, you're right about self-authenticating, because in every case--- except for Ellen White-- the conferences do not issue ordained minister's credential without actually ordaining them. That's the reason Ellen White's situation was so exceptional and significant. And it also shows that her credential was no ordinary credential, and that it was not issued because they viewed her as a "minister." She was a prophet, and they knew it. But they had no credentials made for a prophet. So they gave her the next most appropriate credential, for an ordainted minister.

Any pictures-- or records-- of her credentials prior to 1881?

[John317]

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Tom Wetmore: Just doubling back to dig through the avalanche to see what I might have missed... Not much, really, but a few things sort of popped out at me...

Got some more avalanche, Tom. Maybe I should slow it down?

I guess in response, I could say something like the following, which I know you will find familar:

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This [is] very telling... And it is the problem.

It reinforces my point and Kevin's point made previously that few really have full knowledge and even fewer are willing to take the time necessary to be fully informed of all the evidence. .. I sincerely doubt you read it all... This strategy would be quite like me suggesting to the judge and jury in a murder trial, "Just focus on the autopsy evidence, don't worry about the evidence of the investigating police office or the eye witnesses. We are too busy to take the time to consider that. We just need a quick acquittal here so we can all get back to our lives."

Later I'll repost some of those questions and pieces of information you evidently skipped over or at least did not treat seriously.

[olger]

This should help us stay focused.

"The greatest want of the world is the want of men,--men who will not be bought or sold; men who in their inmost souls are true and honest; men who do not fear to call sin by its right name; men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole; men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall" (Education, p. 57).

"If married men go into the work, leaving their wives to care for the children at home, the wife and mother is doing fully as great and important a work as the husband and father. Although one is in the missionary field, the other is a home missionary, whose cares and anxieties and burdens frequently far exceed those of the husband and father. Her work is a solemn and important one--to mold the minds and fashion the characters of her children, to train them for usefulness here and fit them for the future, immortal life" (5T, 594).

"Eve had been perfectly happy by her husband's side in her Eden home; but, like restless modern Eves, she was flattered with the hope of entering a higher sphere than that which God had assigned her. In attempting to rise above her original position, she fell far below it. A similar result will be reached by all who are unwilling to take up cheerfully their life duties in accordance with God's plan. In their efforts to reach positions for which He has not fitted them, many are leaving vacant the place where they might be a blessing" (AH, 115).

[John317]

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Tom Wetmore: OK "John317". Who is attacking who here?!?!?

You are misrepresenting what I said and the context of why I said it to karl. And what is most of the above post but a personal attack against me within a personal rebuke to CoAspen for his justifiable expression of frustration with the endless merry-go-round of this debate.

Please copy and paste the sentences or paragraphs that you believe are "personal attacks." If they are indeed personal attacks, I will apologize to you and edit them, Tom.

If people are frustrated by a thread, it may be better if they stay away. No one makes them come to a thread and read the posts. If the posts seem a waste of time, people are free to go to discussions where they don't feel that way. But members need to be courteous and let others post what they consider to be serious discussions of a subject, even if the frustrated member feels that nothing is being accomplished.

If I truly believed that this "debate"-- which I view as an exchange or conversation-- was "an endless merry-go-round," I honestly wouldn't take part in it.

Truth often emerges most clearly out of a dialectic, but I realize that a dialectical method may seem to some people to be an endless merry-go-round. Yet since you are an attorney and know the art of rhetoric and language pretty well, you're probably aware that there's much more going on here than a merry-go-round. I've learned a lot from it already. How much you learn from something like this depends on how close one's ear is to the ground and how closely one's listening. I listen plenty closely and my ear is right down on the ground.

[Gregory Matthews]

John 317 said:

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She was a prophet, and they knew it. But they had no credentials made for a prophet. So they gave her the next most appropriate credential, for an ordainted minister.

If the church had thought that she should be issued the credential of a prophet, the chuch could have done so. It is the church that decided to issue nmissionary credentials, commissioned minister credentials and others. In fact, it is the chruch that decided to issue ordained milnister credentials.

In our early history we did not have commissioned minister credentials. These came at a later time. At one time we did not have missionary credentials. These came at a later time.

EGW was issued the credentials of an ordained minister because they believed that God had ordained her and that those credentials fit the role and function that she was given by God. That is clear from the reading of the long-ago historical records of the discussions that took place related to the credentials that she was given.

The focus on ordained ministers needing to be local congregational pastors fails to reflect the reality of the role and function that men filled who were issued such credentials.

[John317]

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Neil D:

So are you saying that "women[a] will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety."??? If not, why isn't this statement on par with your emphasis that women "shall not have authority over men"?

Tell me about this verse-

They [women] are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.

What law are we talking about? Where in the OT does this say this? What specifically is Paul talking about in this sentence?

As for the passage that you quoted in I Corinth, the passage talks about "God is not a God of disorder...and end with "everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way"...How is it that a process places women in 2nd class positions when God "does not show favoritism"...?

These are all excellent and interesting questions, Neil. I'll be glad to answer them after church. I've been up pretty much all night and must now go to bed so I can get up in a few hours for church.

Real quickly the answer to the question about the law is that Saint Paul is not referring to any particular law or verse in the law but is speaking of the law as a whole-- that it shows a pattern of male headship, that men are called to lead and render judgment in matters in the home and in the church in the wilderness. I'll go into greater detail later on.

[Gregory Matthews]

John 317 said:

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I am saying her ordination was from a far higher power than any man or human institution-- it was from Jesus Christ Himself. I'm saying the church recongized that fact and therefore considered it impertinent to think she required them to ordain her.

Yes, her ordination came from God. The denominationation recognized that by granting her the credentials of an ordained minsiter.

In her role and function, she was placed in a position of leadership over men. She reproved them. She corrected them. She instructed them. On one level, she had the same role and function as the males who also were granted the credentials of an ordained minister and she functioned on that level. Like the males who were granted the credentials of an ordained minister, in those early days, did not serve as local pastors. Those who served in charge of local congregations, in those early days, were what we would probably call local elders, and in some cases deacons. It shouldd be noted that we ordain women as local elders, and as deacons (deaconness).

In another aspect she functioned on on a higher level than any of the males.

[Neil D]

Church officers are elected by the church, and therefore they represent the church to the people of God; whereas Ellen White, as a prophet, was God's mouthpiece to His church and to the world. Her authority, unlike the authority of pastors and elders, rested solely upon the decision of God, who selected her-- just as did the authority of Elijah or Samuel.

[Tom Wetmore]

...For both of you, your comments regarding 'you are attacking me' is a side issue that needs to be dropped...

Without a doubt, I am good with that.

Originally Posted By: Neil D

...You guys are talking past each other...

You are absolutely correct. That is a great frustration, speaking for myself personally, with this topic and many of the other hot topics. We all must make a much better effort to very intentionally listen with the expectation of learning rather than lecturing with the intent to teach the other a lesson.

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Neil D

...You guys are talking past each other...

You are absolutely correct. That is a great frustration, speaking for myself personally, with this topic and many of the other hot topics. We all must make a much better effort to very intentionally listen with the expectation of learning rather than lecturing with the intent to teach the other a lesson.

Ok, so, we got that out in the open to heal up....

Now, I got one more favor to ask of you both....

Don't stop talkin' about it...There are some good points by both sides...And I am realizing that not all points need to be settled IMMEDIATELY...so I am willing to let a few things hang without support....

[Neil D]

The following letter was written by the president of the British Union Conference (BUC), Don McFarlane, and dated March 30, 2010. He writes specifically to the pastors and first elders of the BUC to affirm women in ministry. We are posting the whole letter below. Click here if you'd like to download a copy of the original. Note: All bold emphasis came with the letter.

Dear Brothers and Sisters in Ministry

Re: Women in Ministry

From time to time we need to remind ourselves of our values and beliefs as a church and why we hold to them. There are a number of things in my church which I wish I could change but there are certain practices and processes in the church that I admire and feel proud to be associated with.

One is the manner in which we arrive at our doctrinal and ethical positions. Usually years are spent studying a subject from the Old and New Testament before a conclusion is reached. Whatever that conclusion is, it is usually submitted to the entire church in session for discussion and decision. This is done with a seriousness that matches the importance of the mission of our church.

The role of women in ministry is one of the many subjects that the church has spent a considerable amount of time on. Let me share with you certain developments in our church regarding women in ministry over the years that, hopefully, will prove informative:

As early as 1881 the General Conference Session resolved, “That females possessing the necessary qualifications to fill that position, may, with perfect propriety, be set apart by ordination to the work of the Christian ministry (The Review and Herald, December 20, 1881, page 392). Following the resolution, the matter was referred to the three-member General Conference Committee. There is no record of further action or implementation of the resolution. If there was, the church most likely would not be discussing it today.

The 1975 Spring Meeting of the General Conference made provision for the ordination of deaconesses and women elders “where the division found it applicable, or possible, or profitable in their situation.” The General Conference Session later that year affirmed “our purpose to bring qualified women into a broader participation in church leadership and into increasing responsibilities for implementation of church programs.”

Between 1977 and 1984 various study commissions were convened, one result of which was provision for the election and ordination of women to serve as local church elders. The 1985 General Conference Session reviewed the ordination of women and concluded that more study be done. The 1990 General Conference Session voted that women should be given wide participation in all church activities, including soul winning and pastoral duties, but that “in view of the possible risk of disunity, dissension, and diversion from the mission of the Church” the Session approved the Annual Council’s recommendation that ordination of women to the gospel ministry not be authorised.

The 1995 General Conference Session in Utrecht considered and rejected a request from the North American Division “that the General Conference in session adopt provisions on ordination as outlined below:

"The General Conference vests in each division the right to authorize the ordination of individuals within its territory in harmony with established policies. In addition, where circumstances do not render it inadvisable, a division may authorize the ordination of qualified individuals without regard to gender. In divisions where the division executive committee takes specific actions approving the ordination of women to the gospel ministry, women may be ordained to serve in those divisions."

Since 1995, unions that have employed women in ministerial or pastoral functions have used the policy on Commissioning, issuing commissioned minister’s licenses and/or credentials to these women.

While present at the Annual Council of the church last October, the president of the Northern Asia-Pacific Division reported on the growth of the church in China, emphasising that the work was going forward in a powerful manner and that it was women who were the primary pastoral and evangelistic leaders there. China seems to have been oblivious to the debate on women’s ordination going on in other parts of the world and went ahead and ordained their female pastors. Today, the largest Seventh-day Adventist church in the world is in China and is being led by a female pastor.

At the GC Council on Evangelism and Witness in October last year, Cindy Tutsch, of the EG White Estate, presented a paper with the title “Ellen White on the Role of Women in Evangelism”. In that presentation she offered the following quotations:

“‘The Lord desires His ministering servants to occupy a place worthy of the highest consideration. In the mind of God, the ministry of men and women existed before the world was created.’ (E. White, Manuscript Releases 18:380).

“What is needed in the Adventist church today are women of the calibre of [early Adventist female evangelists] Lulu Wightman, Minnie Sype, or Jessie Weiss Curtis; church members who will embrace them; and administrators who will hire them and urge them to excellence.” (Douglas Tilstra, "Encounters with Adventist Women Planting Churches, Ministry, April, 2004, p. 29)

Let me also add a couple quotes from the writings of Ellen White:

“...Women who are willing to consecrate some of their time to the service of the Lord should be appointed to visit the sick, look after the young, and minister to the necessities of the poor. They should be set apart to this work by prayer and laying on of hands.”(Review & Herald, July 9, 1895.)

“All who desire an opportunity for true ministry, and who will give themselves unreservedly to God, will find in the canvassing work opportunities to speak upon many things pertaining to the future, immortal life. The experience thus gained will be of the greatest value to those who are fitting themselves for the ministry. It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors to the flock of God.”(Testimonies, vol. 6, p. 322.)

A sermon was preached recently on 3ABN about women in ministry that has elicited a range of emotions from incredulity to righteous indignation, not just on the part of women but also on the part of a number of men. The British Union supports the position of the world church on the subject as voted in session and does not wish to identify with that sermon. Instead, we wish to affirm all our female leaders in the church and express appreciation for the good work that they do in connection with the fulfilment of the gospel commission. Our understanding of scripture leads us to believe that what qualifies us for leadership in the church is not our gender but the gifts provided by the Holy Spirit.

The doctrine of spiritual gifts (see Romans 12:4-8; 1 Corinthians 12:1-28; Ephesians 4:8, 11-16; Acts 6:17; 1 Peter 4:10, 11) teaches that God gives gifts for service to all without respect to race or gender. Included among the gifts are those of evangelist, prophet, teacher, and pastor. Seventh-day Adventists understand ordination to be the Church’s recognition and affirmation of a person’s gifts for spiritual leadership. Unlike the Roman Catholic “Apostolic Succession” view of ordination, the Seventh-day Adventist view holds that ordination does not confer an added gift or infusion of grace which bestows an authority from God that is not already present before the ceremony of ordination.

The general position of the Church on the ordination of women is that the Bible does not encourage it or discourage it, in which case we are left as a church to apply the great principles in scripture of how God deals with His people. Our understanding is that male and female stand before God as equals, Christ having broken down the wall of separation and alienation between Jews and Gentiles, bond and free, male and female.

I am aware that some members will point to certain texts in Paul’s writings that seem to exclude women from certain activities in the church. Those texts need to be understood in the same way that we understand Paul’s injunction that slaves were to obey their masters. I know of no Seventh-day Adventist who believes that slavery is right. They understand the text to mean that Paul was merely addressing the common order as it existed at the time, without saying whether slavery was wrong or right. Many of the texts that appear to exclude women from a certain type of ministry in the church must be similarly understood.

Thank you for taking the time to read this long letter. I trust that it helps, even to a small degree, to explain why the church has taken the position it has on women in ministry. Please take time to affirm all women who occupy positions of leadership in your church.

Yours sincerely

Don W McFarlane

President

[Nan]

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM - what does one say? Good on the Poms?

[John317]

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Gregory Matthews: EGW was issued the credentials of an ordained minister because they believed that God had ordained her and that those credentials fit the role and function that she was given by God. That is clear from the reading of the long-ago historical records of the discussions that took place related to the credentials that she was given.

Do you know if she was ordained by the church?

Also when did she receive her first ordained minister's credential?

I'm sure I can read those records, and get this information, at the Heritage Room in Loma Linda. I didn't know such historical records of the discussions existed. They'll be interesting to read, I'm sure.

I agree that those credentials were the closest to anything they had which fit her situation.

I think we have to acknowledge that the church saw a clear difference between Ellen White and the pastors and elders in the church. It is shown by the fact that even though they believe men are called by God to the pastoral ministry, the church has always gone ahead and ordained them. They didn't do this in the case of Ellen White.

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The focus on ordained ministers needing to be local congregational pastors fails to reflect the reality of the role and function that men filled who were issued such credentials.

How would you describe the role and fuction of the men who were issued the ordained minister's credential during those early years of our church?

Were they charged with the responsibility of "tending the flock of God" (1 Peter 5: 1-2)?

Were the congregations expected to obey and submit to them (Heb. 13: 17)? Were they "governing," "ruling," or "directing" or watching over the churches (Acts 20: 17, 28; 1 Tim.3: 2, 4-5; 5: 17; Titus 1: 5-7)?

Were they "pastor-teachers" (Eph 4: 11) and able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to confute those who contradict it (Titus 1: 9)?

[John317]

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Neil D: How do you all treat this statement by EGW-

R&H July 9, 1895

Women, who are willing to consecrate some of their service to the Lord, should be appointed to visit the sick, look after the young, minister to the necessities of the poor. They should be set apart to this work by prayer and the laying on of hands. In some cases, they will need to counsel with the [local] church officers or the [conference] minister; but if they are devoted women, maintaining a vital connection with God, they will be a power for good in the church. This is another means of strengthening and building up the church. We need to branch out more in our methods of labor. Not a hand should be bound, not a soul should be discouraged, not a voice should be hushed; let every individual labor, privately or publically, for this grand work.

In the aftermath of this statement, at least 3 women were ordained as deaconesses in the Australian conference in the 1890s.

If women can be ordained as deaconesses, why not elders and ministers? Would that not also include ordaining women as ministers?

Sure. Notice the work and the responsibilities given to the women. They were ministering to the needs of the poor and the sick. This is exactly the kind of duties assigned to the women in the early Christian church. Notice, too, this was the work they were ordained by the early SDA church to do through prayer and the laying on of hands. In this biblical sense, these women were ordained ministers. But as you can see, it's a different type of ministry than we ordinary think of when we think of the work of an "ordained minister." But in the NT, "minister" has a very broad meaning. See the discussion below of the difference between elders and deacons.

Here are the verses and descriptions of the work of pastors, elders, and bishops:

They are charged with the responsibility of "tending the flock of God" (1 Peter 5: 1-2)?

The congregations are expected to obey and submit to them (Heb. 13: 17).They "govern," "rule," or "direct" and watch over the churches (Acts 20: 17, 28; 1 Tim.3: 2, 4-5; 5: 17; Titus 1: 5-7)?

They are "pastor-teachers" (Eph 4: 11) and able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to confute those who contradict it (Titus 1: 9).

The duties and responsibilities of the deacons/deaconess' are described in 1 Tim. 3: 8-13; Acts 6: 1-6. The main difference between the deacons and the elders/pastors/bishops is that in the NT the deacons do not have ruling authority over the church as the elders have, nor are deacons ever required to be able to teach Scripture or sound doctrine.

Compare the qualifications of elders in 1 Tim. 3: 2-7; Titus 1: 6-9, with those of deacons in 1 Tim. 3: 8-13.

[karl]

You didn't say anything about the interpretive insertion of the words "local" and "conference."

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In some cases, they will need to counsel with the [local] church officers or the [conference] minister;

This insertion changes the meaning dramatically. To me, it is clear from the original text that these women are to be neither church officers nor ministers.

[John317]

Yes, indeed, it does. Very glad you pointed this out.

[John317]

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Neil D: Most persons who are trained to run are called a special name...If we say that women are dainty people, 'the weaker sex', and if we have a number of them who normally outruns most males, even in competition, are not called "Athletes", but only "runners"...are we being fair? If they fulfill the office of runner, and athlete, why are we so scared of saying so?

I wrote for over an hour answering this entire post, but then my wireless connection had trouble, and the whole thing was lost. So I will rewrite it but will divide the posts up so that if I lose anything, it won't mean the loss of an hour's work.

I don't think it's a matter of what people are called but of whether the church is going to follow the Bible. Actually, it would be possible to invent new names or call them anything we want, and it wouldn't make any real difference as far as the name is concerned. The only important thing is whether the church is going to follow what God has revealed through the Bible.

The church is faced, then, with 3 primary questions in regard to this issue:

1) Does the Bible support women being pastors and elders, and if it does, where do we find it in Scripture? (Notice that the question is not what has the church done in the past. While it's an interesting and even important question, we can't find the answer to the question by searching history because it's the same as looking to church tradition.)

2) If the Bible doesn't support women being pastors and elders, will the church decide to abide by the Bible or will the church ignore the Bible and go ahead and appoint women as pastors and elders anyway?

3) No matter how the church decides this issue, how is the church going to communicate its decision to the world church, and how will it affect the church members? In other words, will the church be persuaded the decision is a good one so that everyone will accept the decision?

[John317]

The following letter was written by the president of the British Union Conference (BUC), Don McFarlane, and dated March 30, 2010. He writes specifically to the pastors and first elders of the BUC to affirm women in ministry. We are posting the whole letter below. Click here if you'd like to download a copy of the original. Note: All bold emphasis came with the letter.

Dear Brothers and Sisters in Ministry

Re: Women in Ministry

....As early as 1881 the General Conference Session resolved, “That females possessing the necessary qualifications to fill that position, may, with perfect propriety, be set apart by ordination to the work of the Christian ministry (The Review and Herald, December 20, 1881, page 392). Following the resolution, the matter was referred to the three-member General Conference Committee. There is no record of further action or implementation of the resolution.

Questions that need to be answered in regard to this paragraph are:

1) What did the GC session mean by "the work of the Christian ministry"? (As has been pointed out numerous times, "Christian ministry" has a very broad meaning in the Bible and in church history. Christian ministry includes the work of deaconesses, Bible instruction, evangelism, and many different ministries, such as working with the poor, the sick, and with children and women.)

2) Why was there no further action? Was it because Bible study showed the leaders that they didn't have the support of Scripture to ordain women to the pastoral ministery? It seems to me that if the church had seen clear evidence that women are to be made pastors and elders, there would have been no reason not to ordain them to such positions. I think we can safely assume that since they didn't do it at that time, they didn't believe they had Bible authority. Of course it is also possible that the reason they didn't move forward on it was out of fear the church wouldn't stand behind their decision. But if they saw good Bible reason for it, why not publish their findings?

It would be interesting to see what they studied and the conclusions they came to after their study and discussion.

[John317]

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JOHN3:17: The Bible teaches that women in ministry are not to teach men, or to exercise authority over males.

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Neil D: Now we have a problem with "When" does a male cease being a child and becomes a man...According to my understanding, when a boy becomes a man was thru a ceremony at age 12. A teen becomes a man....at this point, a woman can not excercise her authority over the wrong choices of a male because he is a man...This is the logical outcome of your conclusion....to which, I would be fearful for you of many a mother of teens.... teehe

That is not a problem, Neil. The NT instructions don't affect a mother's right to teach her children, whether males or females. It also does not affect teachers in schools. Paul is talking about "in all the churches of the saints" (1 Cor. 14: 33b-34).

It goes without saying that the apostle isn't saying women can't talk in church under any circumstances. See 1 Cor. 11:5.

[John317]

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John317: The Bible uses the word "minister" or "ministry" in quite a few different ways. For instance, according to the NT, a "minister" [Gk. diakonos] is anything from a servant and attendant to a deacon/deaconess or a pastor. As far as women's role in the church is concerned, I see no difference between an ordained minister or a licensed minister. Those difference are really technical in nature. I don't view the difference between them as anything substanative.

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Neil D: Ok, so when the bible says that Pheobe was a deaconess, or a minister or a servant to God's work, she also was recognized by a [male] Apostle [who we both agree was ordained by God] that she also was set apart for God's work and was fulfilling God's work....right?

If she was a deaconess, she was no doubt recognized by the elders, the pastor, and the bishop in the local church as well. Phoebe wouldn't have been a deacon or minister of any kind without the support of the officers in the church. No one occupies any of those positions on their own, without being appointed by the church. If that wasn't the case, it would be possible for two or more people to believe they each had the right to preach the sermon that morning or to do other duties which possibly another person believed was his/her responsibility.

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Neil D: So whether she was ordained or not, she was recognised by God, thru Paul, as being a deaconess...My understanding is that when it comes to ordination, the church only recognizes the obvious character of the person fulfilling the duties of the office. It 'ordains' as a legal document for the world. It sanctions the person as a legitimate and paid worker within the Church.

The church ordains for the benefit of the church, so that the members know that the ordained individual is acknowledged by the church and are speaking or working with the support of the church. Without that, the person would be speaking on their own. After they're ordained, they represent the church to the congregations.

In the case of Ellen White, she was never ordained by man or by the church. She spoke authoriatively as a messenger from God, giving His messages. The reason she wasn't ordained by the church is that her authority didn't derive from the church but was directly from Jesus Christ Himself who personally called her to be His messenger and gave her about 2,000 dreams and visions over a period of about half a century.

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Neil D: So when EGW was given a certificate of ordination, the church recognised an obvious work in the person of EGW.

Ellen G. White was recognized by the church for a long time before she was issued a credential, and she was never actually ordained by the church or by any man. She wouldn't, in any case, have accepted such an ordination. Her authority and her work didn't at all depend upon her credential. See 1 SM 32, 33

[John317]

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Neil D (quoting Don W McFarlane):

The 1975 Spring Meeting of the General Conference made provision for the ordination of deaconesses and women elders “where the division found it applicable, or possible, or profitable in their situation.” The General Conference Session later that year affirmed “our purpose to bring qualified women into a broader participation in church leadership and into increasing responsibilities for implementation of church programs.

While the provision to ordain women to work as deaconesses is clearly supported by the Bible, where's the evidence that the NT authorizes or supports the ordination of women to become elders? Is there a single example in the NT of a woman being made an elder? The church can't make a legitimate rule in opposition to the teachings of the Bible. Or can it?

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Don W McFarlane: Between 1977 and 1984 various study commissions were convened, one result of which was provision for the election and ordination of women to serve as local church elders. The 1985 General Conference Session reviewed the ordination of women and concluded that more study be done.

This is saying that through 1984, after many and various study commissions by many highly trained theologians and Bible students, the church still decided that it needed "more study [to] be done." That's after the church has studied the issue for over a hundred years. No one evidently was yet able to write a persuasive article showing the world church that God's will is for women to be elders and pastors. Doesn't this tell us that the Bible evidence must be sparse indeed, if not entirely lacking?

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Don W McFarlane: The 1990 General Conference Session voted that women should be given wide participation in all church activities, including soul winning and pastoral duties, but that “in view of the possible risk of disunity, dissension, and diversion from the mission of the Church” the Session approved the Annual Council’s recommendation that ordination of women to the gospel ministry not be authorised.

The answer to the question of why this occurred is found in the previous paragraph: the study groups, after years and years of study, still couldn't find clear Bible evidence for women to be ordained to the gospel ministry.

The reason given is that it would risk disunity and dissension, but if it is supported clearly from Scripture-- and if the church could write a persuasive paper showing such support from Scripture-- there would be no reason for the disunity and dissension.

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Don W McFarlane: The 1995 General Conference Session in Utrecht considered and rejected a request from the North American Division that the General Conference in session adopt provisions on ordination as outlined below:

"The General Conference vests in each division the right to authorize the ordination of individuals within its territory in harmony with established policies. In addition, where circumstances do not render it inadvisable, a division may authorize the ordination of qualified individuals without regard to gender. In divisions where the division executive committee takes specific actions approving the ordination of women to the gospel ministry, women may be ordained to serve in those divisions."

So, despite all the decisions of the GC against making women pastors and elders, the North American Division still attempted to find a way for the churches in North America to ordain women to become pastors and elders. They asked if each division could do it independently. But their attempt failed. The request was denied by the General Conference in session. The world church of SDAs had spoken. Or had it?

My impression is that the people making the requests will never stop asking until they get what they want, and if they don't get it, they will do it anyway.

Isn't it apparent after all those years of study groups, that the Bible doesn't give support to women as elders and pastors? If the support was there, and it was clear, wouldn't they have discovered it and shown the world church already? But the question is-- does it really matter? The answer is, no, clearly it does not matter. See the next paragraph, which shows that some of the unions have skirted the decisions of the General Conference in session and done what they have long been determined to do, despite the fact that the studies have never produced clear evidence that the Bible supports women as pastors and elders.

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Don W McFarlane: Since 1995, unions that have employed women in ministerial or pastoral functions have used the policy on Commissioning, issuing commissioned minister’s licenses and/or credentials to these women.