Doug Batchelor Preaches Against Women Pastors

[John317]

Quote:

Tom Wetmore: Yes that is the context, but she clearly is saying that such work is good preparation for pastoral ministry for both men and women. You said, "Conspicuously absent from the list [of ministries for women] is "pastor" or "elder."

Were "pastor" and "elder" on the list of ministries for women at that time? Did any women occupy those ministries?

Is it possible that "pastoral ministry" was understood at that time to include various ministries that today would not be considered pastoring ministry? For instance, I believe that in those times, a wife who went with her pastor-husband to visit women was thought to be working in the pastoral ministry. Such ministry included Bible instructors, or those giving Bible readings, or Bible studies, to women. They also counseled women. These kinds of ministries, of course, were under the supervision of male leadership in the church. this is in harmony with the biblical use of the word, "ministry," which is very broad, as mentioned before. There's a real sense in which "ministry" includes everything believers do to support their church or the spreading of the gospel. We are all called to be "ministers" or "servants" of Christ.

Ellen White wrote the following:

1) "Young men and young women who should be engaged in the ministry, in Bible work, and in the canvassing work should not be bound down to mechanical employment.-- Review and Herald, May 16, 1912" (Colporteur Ministry)

2) "Husband and Wife in a United Work.-- There are women who should labor in the gospel ministry. In many respects they would do more good than the ministers who neglect to visit the flock of God." Ev. 472

3) "There should be selected for the work wise, consecrated men who can do a good work in reaching souls. Women also should be chosen who can present the truth in a clear, intelligent, straightforward manner... We need as workers men and women who understand the reasons for our faith and who realize the work to be done in communicating truth, and who will refuse to speak any words that will weaken the confidence of any soul in the Word of God or destroy the fellowship that should exist between those of like faith." Letter 54, 1909 (Ev. 472)

4) "A Bible Instructor Addresses Congregation.--.... Sister R and Sister W are doing just as efficient work as the ministers; and some meetings when the ministers are called away, Sister W takes the Bible and addresses the congregation. Letter 169, 1900." (Ev. 473)

5) "Teach this, my sister. You have many ways opened before you. Address the crowd whenever you can; hold every jot of influence you can by any association that can be made the means of introducing the leaven to the meal. Every man and every woman has a work to do for the Master... May 9, 1899." Ev. 473

6) "Camp Meeting Bible Class Conducted by Women.-- ... Let short discourses be given, and then let Bible classes be held. Let the speaker be sure to rivet the truth upon minds. Intelligent women, if truly converted, can act a part in this work of holding Bible classes. There is a wide field of service for women as well as for men. Letter 84, 1910." Ev. 473, 474.

7) "BIBLE INSTRUCTOR'S QUALIFICATIONS

Caliber of Women for God's Work.-- Women of firm principle and decided character are needed, women who believe that we are indeed living in the last days, and that we have the last solemn message of warning to be given to the world.... Sisters, God calls you to work in the harvest field and help gather in the sheaves. Review and Herald, Dec. 19, 1878." Ev. 477, 478

NOTE: Do we find anything in the above paragraphs that indicated Ellen White believed that women should be ordained to serve as the pastors or elders of local congregations? Notice that Ellen White speaks of women in the "gospel ministry" who were not actually working as a pastor or elder. In #2, Ellen White is talking about a woman who works alongside of her husband. Some of the quotes are in reference to women who were working as Bible instructors. I don't believe there's any evidence from those quotes that Ellen White was talking about women who were governing churches or in authority over men. All of these women were under the supervision of male leadership in the church. When Ellen White speaks of women in the gospel ministry or in the ministry, she evidently does not mean they are pastors or elders of local congregations. There are many ministries open to women now as there were in Ellen White's day.

Quote:

Tom Wetmore: And when I point out several quotes where sh does in fact include women in the idea of pastoral minsitry you try to say it means something else. You are simply ignoring the plain meaning of what she said.

Do you know of any names of women who were ordained during that time (1860s to 1915) to the position of pastoring local congregations or of being the local church elder?

While these things are interesting to study, they cannot of themselves be the primary basis of the church's decision in regard to women's ministries, because to make it the determining factor would be the same as going to church tradition for our authority. Don't you agree that our church must make its decisions on this matter on the basis of one authority and one authority only, and that is the authority of Scripture?

[John317]

Quote:

teresaq(sda): so it basically comes down to what one chooses to believe....

G4368 prostatis

Thayer Definition:

1) a woman set over others

2) a female guardian, protectress, patroness, caring for the affairs of others and aiding them with her resources

Part of Speech: noun feminine

A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from a derivative of G4291

If you have Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon, look carefully at the definition it gives for prostatis.

Question: Where do you find the reference to Romans 16: 2? Is it under definition #1 or under definition #2?

You will see it is definition #2. It says plainly that in Romans 16: 2, the word prostatis should be translated "protectress, partoness, female guardian." This agrees with all other Greek-English Lexicons. If you compare NT translations, you will find that over 95% of them translate prostatis in agreement with Thayer's definitions. Most Bible scholars believe Phoebe was a wealthy businesswoman who helped Paul and other believers. She probably carried Paul's letter to Rome.

There is not a single Greek-English Lexicon which says that protastis should be translated at Romans 16: 2 as "a woman set over others."

Quote:

teresaq(sda): G4291 proistēmi

Thayer Definition:

1) to set or place before

1a) to set over

1b) to be over, to superintend, preside over

1c) to be a protector or guardian

This word does not occur in Romans 16: 2, so it is really irrelevant for your purposes of trying to understand what Paul is saying in Romans 16: 2.

What you want to do is stay with Strongs # 4368 (protastis) and not concern yourself with words that are not directly related to the vocabularly used in Romans 16: 2. Those words used elsewhere in the NT will only cause you further confusion. For one thing, the word in Romans 16: 2 is a feminine noun whereas proisteemi (Romans 12: 8; 1 Tim. 5: 17) is a masculine participle.

Quote:

teresaq(sda): 1c1) to give aid

1d) to care for, give attention to

1d1) profess honest occupations

Part of Speech: verb

A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4253 and G2476

Citing in TDNT: 6:700,*

Again, there's no use looking at proisteemi. It doesn't occur in Romans 16: 2. Stay with Strongs #4368, prostatis, definition #2 in Thayer's Lexicon. That is why Thayer says, "b. a female guardian, protectress, patroness, caring for the affairs of others and aiding them with their resources [A.V. succourer]: Ro. xvi. 2." It is also why virtually all translations read in a way that agrees with the definition given by Thayer and ALL other Greek lexicons.

If you haven't studied Greek before, I really encourage you to take it for a year or two. That way you will learn how to read and understand better what the Lexicons are saying. What you don't want to do is think that readers should just pick whatever definition they like. That's definitely not the way it's done.

[John317]

Quote:

teresaq(sda) (quoting Ellen White):

The printed page cannot accomplish alone the work that the living minister can do. He can explain the Scriptures to the people, praying with them and appealing to them, and making effective the truths of the Bible. Not merely one or two men are called to do this work, but many men and women who have ability to preach and teach the Word. {12MR 165.3}

If necessary, let us limit the number of our periodical publications, and let us send forth men and women to labor in faith and consecration for the giving of this last message of mercy to the world. When it is possible let the minister and his wife go forth together. The wife can often labor by the side of her husband, accomplishing a noble work. She can visit the homes of the people and help the women in these families in a way that her husband cannot. {12MR 166.2}

Some will offer themselves for service who are not adapted to this line of work. Direct these to a work that they can do, and encourage them to study the first chapter of 2 Peter. Here is a representation of the experiences that will fit men and women to become efficient workers of God. {12MR 166.3}

Select women who will act an earnest part. The Lord will use intelligent women in the work of teaching. And let none feel that these women, who understand the Word, and who have ability to teach, should not receive remuneration for their labors. They should be paid as verily as are their husbands. There is a great work for women to do in the cause of present truth. Through the exercise of womanly tact and wise use of their knowledge of Bible truth, they can remove difficulties that our brethren cannot meet. We need women workers to labor in connection with their husbands, and we should encourage those who wish to engage in this line of missionary effort. {12MR 166.4}

Elder Haskell and his wife have united their labors in the California Conference. Conditions here demanded the capabilities of both. Let none question the right of Sister Haskell to receive remuneration for her work. Dr. Kress and his wife are likewise capable of uniting in missionary effort. None would question the right of Sister Kress to receive a salary. Laboring thus, Brother and Sister Kress can accomplish more than if they labored separately. {12MR 167.1}

Study the Scriptures for further light on this point. Women were among Christ's devoted followers in the days of His ministry, and Paul makes mention of certain women who were helpers together with him in the gospel (see Philippians 4:2, 3).--Letter 142, 1909, pp. 4-6. (To A. G. Daniells, Oct. 27, 1909)

Php 4:1 Therefore, my brethren dearly beloved and longed for, my joy and crown, so stand fast in the Lord, my dearly beloved.

Php 4:2 I beseech Euodias, and beseech Syntyche, that they be of the same mind in the Lord.

Php 4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

These are all good and important quotes. Which ones, if any, do you believe show that Ellen White believed women should be appointed to be the pastors and elders of local congregations?

[John317]

Quote:

John317:

...The apostle Paul is concerned to preseve male leadership in teaching and governing of the church.

Quote:

Tom Wetmore: This fact of Phoebe's position as a minister and leader of the church in Rome was recognized in the Advent Review and Sabbath Herald in an editorial published by James White way back at the beginning of the Advent movement.

I'm going to do research on this and see exactly what James White said, but do you remember if James White took the position that Phoebe was the pastor of the church? Or did White believe that she was a deaconess?

When you call it a fact that Phoebe was a "minister" and a "leader" of the church at Cenchrea, do you mean that you believe she was the pastor of the church? Or the bishop? What do you believe the bishop did in those days?

Notice that Paul writes that one of the qualifications of the bishops and elders is that they be the husband of one wife. 1 Tim. 3: 1, 2. Another qualification is that bishops must be "apt to teach," i.e., skilled in teaching. 1 Tim. 3: 5 says that bishops are to be men who rule or manage their own households so that they will know how to manage or rule the church of God. Yet elsewhere in the same letter, Paul writes that women are not to be permitted to teach or usurp authority over a man. 1 Tim. 2: 12.

How then could Phoebe be a bishop, since she doesn't fulfill any of the qualifications set forth by the Apsotle? For instance, she (1) isn't a man with one wife; (2) can't teach; (3) and she can't rule the church or have authority over men.

I see another problem with your idea that Phoebe was a bishop or overseer superior in authority to Paul: it seems incredible that if this was the case, there would be no record of her in the NT beyond the brief mention of her in Romans 16: 1, 2.

Your thoughts on these two main questions?

[Tom Wetmore]

The editorial was not written by James White. It had been previously published elsewhere and James White republished it in the Advent Review and Sabbath Herald. It apparently captured his interest enough that he thought it of value to the Adventist believers. I have been trying to find the cite. I believe that all the old back issues are online through the GC Archives website, so when I find it I will post the link. One point of clarification, I have said it suggests she was effectively the first bishop of Rome. The editorial uses the term "Pope."

I believe Phoebe was, as Paul identifies her, the minister of the church at Cenchrea. The way Paul describes her leadership it suggests a wider reach. The fact that he entrusted this letter to her further reinforces her standing as more than local to Cenchrea. That was a bit of a journey for her to make to deliver his letter and one must assume she didn't travel alone as that would not have been customary even for a man. Most likely others, including men, were with her. That Paul appointed her to deliver, (that would include reading it to the Roman believers since many would have been illiterate) also meant she was likely an educated women, also unusual. She was chosen by Paul over other capable men for this mission.

[Tom Wetmore]

karl,

Two quick points.

You are playing a game of semantics that strains and minimizes the plain and clear meaning of what EGW actually says. She was in every way supportive of full ministry of women as pastors, evangelists, deaconess, elders, teachers, and preachers, including paying them from the sacred tithe which was reserved for paying ministers of the gospel.

Pastoral ministry is not about headship. The Church has but one head - Christ. The body can only have one head and Revelation speaks of multi-headed impostors. It is Catholic theology that seeks to establish human headship of the Church. Biblical ministry was a "hand" role to serve others, not a "head" role. That is what diakono is about.

Consider Jesus' answer to James and John's attempt to seek a "headship" position in his kingdom:

Quote:

Jesus called them together and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave- just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

[teresaq]

Quote:

teresaq(sda): here are the geneva notes to that verse.

Rom 16:1 I (1) commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:

(1) Having made an end of the whole discussion, he comes now to familiar commendations and salutations, and that to good consideration and purpose, that is, that the Romans might know who are most to be honoured and to be considered among them: and also whom they ought to set before them to follow: and therefore he attributes to every of them individual and singular testimonies.

Sure, I can agree with those comments. The comments above refer to all the commendations in chapter 16 and not only to those concerning Phoebe.

Notice that the notes in the Geneva Bible do not even suggest that Phoebe was a bishop or that she was over Paul, nor do they mention anything about her possibly being the pastor of the church in Cenchrea.

Also notice that Romans 16: 1, 2 in the Geneva Bible refers to Phoebe as a "servant" in verse 1 and says in verse 2 that she has "given hospitality to many," and to Paul also. This is in harmony with the thinking of most NT scholars.

[Neil D]

NOTE: Do we find anything in the above paragraphs that indicated Ellen White believed that women should be ordained to serve as the pastors or elders of local congregations? Notice that Ellen White speaks of women in the "gospel ministry" who were not actually working as a pastor or elder. In #2, Ellen White is talking about a woman who works alongside of her husband. Some of the quotes are in reference to women who were working as Bible instructors. I don't believe there's any evidence from those quotes that Ellen White was talking about women who were governing churches or in authority over men. All of these women were under the supervision of male leadership in the church. When Ellen White speaks of women in the gospel ministry or in the ministry, she evidently does not mean they are pastors or elders of local congregations. There are many ministries open to women now as there were in Ellen White's day.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

Yes that is the context, but she clearly is saying that such work is good preparation for pastoral ministry for both men and women. You said, "Conspicuously absent from the list [of ministries for women] is "pastor" or "elder."

And when I point out several quotes where sh does in fact include women in the idea of pastoral minsitry you try to say it means something else. You are simply ignoring the plain meaning of what she said.

There IS clear directive from EGW, published in Testimonies to the Church, about women not trying to move above the position God appointed them to. And this counsel is given specifically in the context of God appointing men the headship role (EGW uses the word "superior" but it seems that term gives WO advocates apoplexy.)

[teresaq]

As a personal commentary, I think that any man who is not secure in his maleness will display some very distinct manipulative characteristics, ie insists that his wife learns from him first and foremost [Hey, it's biblical].

Just my opinion, folks...just my opinion...

my 60 year experience has to agree with that!!

i had the privilege of associating with a certain group of non-americans for many years and being treated as an absolute equal was so....different...that i am shocked at the behavior of certain americanized men, not all, but certain ones....

[karl]

Originally Posted By: Neil D

As a personal commentary, I think that any man who is not secure in his maleness will display some very distinct manipulative characteristics, ie insists that his wife learns from him first and foremost [Hey, it's biblical].

Just my opinion, folks...just my opinion...

my 60 year experience has to agree with that!!

i had the privilege of associating with a certain group of non-americans for many years and being treated as an absolute equal was so....different...that i am shocked at the behavior of certain americanized men, not all, but certain ones....

More ad hominem attacks.

This is pretty rich, teresa. In the SDA church, it is the western church (which you insinuate is full of MCPs,) that is pushing for WO. The non-Western part of the world church, (which you insinuate is treating women as equals,) is voting out WO at our GC meetings.

You need to identify who your supporters are.

[teresaq]

Quote:

Tom Wetmore: Yes that is the context, but she clearly is saying that such work is good preparation for pastoral ministry for both men and women. You said, "Conspicuously absent from the list [of ministries for women] is "pastor" or "elder."

Do you know of any names of women who were ordained during that time (1860s to 1915) to the position of pastoring local congregations or of being the local church elder?

[teresaq]

As a personal commentary, I think that any man who is not secure in his maleness will display some very distinct manipulative characteristics, ie insists that his wife learns from him first and foremost [Hey, it's biblical].

Just my opinion, folks...just my opinion...

[karl]

karl,

Two quick points.

You are playing a game of semantics that strains and minimizes the plain and clear meaning of what EGW actually says.

You, sir, are dodging the question.

Why do you think that the references to women in the ministry you have dredged up are so difficult to find? Why do you think God's default choices are male for leadership in His church?

Why do you think Christ came as a man?

Why are you concentrating on finding a mouse when the elephant is staring you in the face?

[teresaq]

Quote:

teresaq(sda): so it basically comes down to what one chooses to believe....

G4368 prostatis

Thayer Definition:

1) a woman set over others

2) a female guardian, protectress, patroness, caring for the affairs of others and aiding them with her resources

Part of Speech: noun feminine

A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from a derivative of G4291 G4291 proistēmi

Thayer Definition:

1) to set or place before

1a) to set over

1b) to be over, to superintend, preside over

1c) to be a protector or guardian

1c1) to give aid

1d) to care for, give attention to

1d1) profess honest occupations

Part of Speech: verb

A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4253 and G2476

Citing in TDNT: 6:700,*

[color:#FF0000]You will see it is definition #2. It says plainly that in Romans 16: 2, the word prostatis should be translated "protectress, partoness, female guardian."

as i said it comes down to what one chooses to believe and what one wishes to take into consideration. :)

[teresaq]

Quote:

teresaq(sda) (quoting Ellen White):

The printed page cannot accomplish alone the work that the living minister can do. He can explain the Scriptures to the people, praying with them and appealing to them, and making effective the truths of the Bible. Not merely one or two men are called to do this work, but many men and women who have ability to preach and teach the Word. {12MR 165.3}

If necessary, let us limit the number of our periodical publications, and let us send forth men and women to labor in faith and consecration for the giving of this last message of mercy to the world. When it is possible let the minister and his wife go forth together. The wife can often labor by the side of her husband, accomplishing a noble work. She can visit the homes of the people and help the women in these families in a way that her husband cannot. {12MR 166.2}

Some will offer themselves for service who are not adapted to this line of work. Direct these to a work that they can do, and encourage them to study the first chapter of 2 Peter. Here is a representation of the experiences that will fit men and women to become efficient workers of God. {12MR 166.3}

Select women who will act an earnest part. The Lord will use intelligent women in the work of teaching. And let none feel that these women, who understand the Word, and who have ability to teach, should not receive remuneration for their labors. They should be paid as verily as are their husbands. There is a great work for women to do in the cause of present truth. Through the exercise of womanly tact and wise use of their knowledge of Bible truth, they can remove difficulties that our brethren cannot meet. We need women workers to labor in connection with their husbands, and we should encourage those who wish to engage in this line of missionary effort. {12MR 166.4}

Elder Haskell and his wife have united their labors in the California Conference. Conditions here demanded the capabilities of both. Let none question the right of Sister Haskell to receive remuneration for her work. Dr. Kress and his wife are likewise capable of uniting in missionary effort. None would question the right of Sister Kress to receive a salary. Laboring thus, Brother and Sister Kress can accomplish more than if they labored separately. {12MR 167.1}

Study the Scriptures for further light on this point. Women were among Christ's devoted followers in the days of His ministry, and Paul makes mention of certain women who were helpers together with him in the gospel (see Philippians 4:2, 3).--Letter 142, 1909, pp. 4-6. (To A. G. Daniells, Oct. 27, 1909)

Php 4:1 Therefore, my brethren dearly beloved and longed for, my joy and crown, so stand fast in the Lord, my dearly beloved.

Php 4:2 I beseech Euodias, and beseech Syntyche, that they be of the same mind in the Lord.

Php 4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

These are all good and important quotes. Which ones, if any, do you believe show that Ellen White believed women should be appointed to be the pastors and elders of local congregations?

what exactly does that mean to you, john? what kind of "authority" do you see coming with those postions? keeping in mind,

Luk 22:24 A dispute also arose among them as to which one of them was to be regarded as the greatest.

Luk 22:25 But he said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those in authority over them are called benefactors.

Luk 22:26 But not so with you; rather the greatest among you must become like the youngest, and the leader like one who serves.

Luk 22:27 For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one at the table? But I am among you as one who serves.

1Pe 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder,...1Pe 5:3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.

[John317]

Quote:

teresaq(sda): as i said it comes down to what one chooses to believe and what one wishes to take into consideration.

Yes, you did say it but saying it and repeating it does not make it true.

Show your evidence and reasoning, please. All you are doing is stating this as an unsupported opinion. This does not help your case at all.

Answer this simple question: In Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon, on the word, prostatis, where do you find the reference to Romans 16: 2? Is it under definition #1 or under definition #2?

Have you checked out the Lexicon of Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, p. 726? It gives "protectress, patroness, helper." The line "prostatis pallon egeneethee kai emou autou" is translated as "'she has been of great assistance to many, including myself' Ro 16: 2."

The Analytical Greek Lexicon, p. 344, shows that prostatis is the feminine form of prostatees. It gives, "a patroness, protectress, Ro 16: 2."

The book, Refresh Your Greek, which is the entire Greek NT with many of the words parsed, says, "prostatis, nominative singular feminine prostatis, protectress, patroness, helper, assistant; predicate nominative of egeneethee."

A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, prepared by Barclay M. Newman, Jr., and published in the United Bible Society's third edition of the Greek New Testament, says, "prostatis, feminine helper, good friend."

A Readers Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament, (Andrews University Press), says, "prostatis, protectress, patroness, helper." (This lexicon is written by Sakae Kubo, a well-known teacher of Greek and an SDA Bible scholar.)

Gincrich's Shorter Lexicon of the Greek New Testament, p. 187 (University of Chicago Press), says, "prostatis, protectress, patroness, helper Ro 16: 2."

I have many more authoritative sources of the meaning of the word, but if you want to believe it does not mean what those sources say it means, 100 more sources would not persuade you to believe differently than you believe now.

The way I always approach the Bible, as I do any other intellectual endeavor, is that I study all the evidence before I draw a conclusion. That's the inductive way of studying, and it is best because it is not based on what we want but on what the evidence points to. I don't let issues like this become emotional. I try to be as objective as possible and I am always willing to change my mind if I am persuaded to do so by the evidence. But I am not persuaded by people's personal attacks or comments or by their improper use of evidence or logic, and I don't believe in something because it's popular or politically correct. Those things have absolutely no influence on me. As with all Bible doctrines, I care only about one thing: is it supported by clear Bible evidence?

What is your answer? Show me with legitimate, valid biblical evidence. I'm very interested in the history and practices of the SDA church, yet in the final analysis, the question of women and men's roles in the church must be settled by the Bible, theologically, and not by church tradition or by what society considers right.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

karl,

Two quick points.

You are playing a game of semantics that strains and minimizes the plain and clear meaning of what EGW actually says.

You, sir, are dodging the question.

Why do you think that the references to women in the ministry you have dredged up are so difficult to find?

thats funny. using the "search" function brings up quite a bit, otherwise "difficult" would mean to mean to me, having to read each and everything written....

[teresaq]

Quote:

teresaq(sda): as i said it comes down to what one chooses to believe and what one wishes to take into consideration.

All you are doing is stating this as an unsupported opinion.

[Tom Wetmore]

You, sir, are dodging the question.

Why do you think that the references to women in the ministry you have dredged up are so difficult to find? Why do you think God's default choices are male for leadership in His church?

Why do you think Christ came as a man?

Why are you concentrating on finding a mouse when the elephant is staring you in the face?

I'm afraid all the dodging and weaving is happening on the other side of the argument.

Those references were not difficult to find if you just look. They have in fact been published repeatedly. This debate is as old as the Church itself. James White and Uriah Smith were among those advocating for women to be recognized as qualified to preach and teach the gospel as minister/evangelists/pastors of the Church in their day. And women were so recognized and licensed by the Church back in those days.

Here is a treasure trove of information on the topic - http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/wo/index.htm Start reading and when you have read it all let's talk.

There were more women ministers in the Adventist Church per capita in EGW's time than there are now. Why are we going backwards? For the narrowest conservative concession of what EGW say is the role of women being minsters to fellow women, more than half of our pastors should be women since more than half of our membership are women. Why not at least ordain them to that?

As for God's choice of men for leadership, it wasn't exclusively men. Remember Deborah, a judge of Israel? But God knew his audience which was a patriarchal society. It fit the time and culture to have men predominately in leadership. But there is no Biblical prohibition for women in leadership for all time in all circumstances. Deborah refutes that as even possible because one excpetion disproves that idea.

And yes, I saw the elephant in the corner and she said keep looking - there is buried treasure yet to be found. (And the answer can be found with that little mouse under your right hand...) Yes the elephant in the corner on this whole matter is a woman - a woman name Ellen G. White. We have a woman called by God to help lead and guide this Church as His special messenger, especially for this time. What do I mean by that? That it's the end time? Yes, but it is more than that. In EGW's time it was the birth of the women's movement. We have come a long way, baby, from that time even. Women are now accepted in practically all areas of profession and leadership, even in some third world countries. Hardly anyone blinks at women in those roles now. It is accepted and normative. EGW was a women just ahead of her time, a time now when women are not the exception in leadership or business or the professions. Coincidence? No, all in God's good time, he chose a woman. That we have a women as our denomination's founder and prophet is indeed a most ironic elephant in the corner while we are still debating more than 150 year later what a women can be called to do in the Church!

We shouldn't even have to ask these questions again with so obvious an answer right under our noses.

[John317]

Quote:

teresaq(sda): i had the privilege of associating with a certain group of non-americans for many years and being treated as an absolute equal was so....different...that i am shocked at the behavior of certain americanized men, not all, but certain ones....

What behavior to you refer to? Are you talking about beliefs based on the Bible-- or do you mean behavior, as in what men do?

It seems to me you are using the old trick of attacking the man, or attacking the messenger, instead of attacking the message by showing it to be wrong on the basis of evidence and reason. I'm sure you wouldn't do this if your argument or position was strong on its own. You are doing what people often do when they have no other recourse and see that they have lost the argument or debate.

This is one reason I have serious doubts about the scholarly and biblical support that can be shown for your position-- because of these kinds of remarks, instead of dealing with the biblical evidence.

What you evidently don't know or are ignoring is the fact that there are also many SDA women who don't believe the Bible supports women as pastors or elders of local congregations. The Bible certainly calls for all Christian women to be in ministries and missions of some kind, but they do not need to be "official," or in positions where they ruling or governing or managing the church.

How do you account for Paul's writing of 1 Cor. 14: 33b-40 and 1 Tim. 2: 11-14? I would really like to hear your understanding of those verses.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

: i had the privilege of associating with a certain group of non-americans for many years and being treated as an absolute equal was so....different...that i am shocked at the behavior of certain americanized men, not all, but certain ones....

What behavior to you refer to? Are you talking about beliefs based on the Bible-- or do you mean behavior, as in what men do?

It seems to me you are using the old trick of attacking the man, or attacking the messenger, instead of attacking the message by showing it to be wrong on the basis of evidence and reason.

-------

well, again my brother, you are definitely entitled to your opinion.

other than that i was responding to neils comment and i guess it could be said it was somewhat "off-topic". if i had wished to be more specific i would have been...but please do note the bolded words in my statement....

and if the shoe dont fit, why dont you and karl, and anyone else choosing to take offense, stop putting it on? :)

[Woody]

Quote:

It seems to me you are using the old trick of attacking the man, or attacking the messenger, instead of attacking the message

So then ... tell me what your thoughts are about a gay minister who preaches all the 28 Fundamentals yet fails in his personal life. Are you going to listen to his true message or to the man's sins in his personal life?

[karl]

Here is a treasure trove of information on the topic - http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/wo/index.htm Start reading and when you have read it all let's talk.

[John317]

JOHN3:17: It seems to me you are using the old trick of attacking the man, or attacking the messenger, instead of attacking the message

Quote:

Woody: So then ... tell me what your thoughts are about a gay minister who preaches all the 28 Fundamentals yet fails in his personal life. Are you going to listen to his true message or to the man's sins in his personal life?

What do you mean by "gay minister"? Are you talking about an SDA minister who is practicing homosexuality? Or are you talking about a man who used to practice homosexuality but who has overcome those sins by God's grace?

I am gay myself but I don't practice those sins any more. Obviously I would listen to a person who used to practice homosexuality, but if you are asking me if I would listen to a "pastor" who's currently a practicing homosexual, the answer is no. Nor would I listen to someone who claims to be a pastor, but who is living in an adulterous relationship or who is a drug dealer or a whoremonger. The SDA church doesn't need or want those kinds of "pastors." Jesus called such people "wolves" in sheep's clothing.

I deliberately made the decision to leave the SDA ministry in the late 1970s because I didn't want to be working in the ministry at the same time that I was practicing homosexuality. I met others who were doing it, but I didn't want to join them. It was very hard for me to give up living that way of life. I wanted both Christ and homosexuality, and it was only about 2004 that I stopped fence-sitting and gave my homosexual practices over to Jesus Christ. So with His power I stopped the practices, something that I thought could NEVER happen. I know Jesus did it because if it had just been up to me, I would never have stopped. But Christ could do it only because after 35 wasted years I finally surrended my whole life to Him and gave Him permission to do what He had wanted to do all those years.