Doug Batchelor Preaches Against Women Pastors

[John317]

Quote:

teresaq(sda): oh, ok. so paul was a "deaconess" or "ministring servant."

As you can see by studying any Greek-English Lexicon and by looking up all the occurrences of the word diakonos, it does not take the same meaning in every verse.

diakonos [minister] is a very general term. Let's go through those definitions again:

1) One who renders service to another; an attendant, servant, Matt. 20; 26; 22: 13; John 2: 5, 9.

2) One who executes a commission, a deputy, Rom. 13: 4

3) A commissioned minister or preacher of the Gospel, 1 Cor. 3: 5; 2 Cor. 6: 4

4) A minister charged with an announcement or sentence, 2 Cor. 3: 6; Gal. 2: 17; Col. 1: 23

5) A minister charged with a significant characteristic, Romans 15: 8

6) A servitor, devoted follower, John 12: 26

7) A deacon or deaconess, whose official duty was to superintend the aims of the Church, with other kindred services, Romans 16: 1; Phil. 1: 1; 1 Tim. 3: 8, 12.

Quote:

teresaq(sda): i believe the general consensus disagrees with your conclusions, but what would they know?

If you believe so, see the evidence below:

The vast majority of the translations of Romans 16: 1 translate diakonos as "deaconess," "servant," while a minor number of translations have "ministering servant," "helper," "worker," "minister."

Remember that "minister" is a general term and may refer to many different kinds of ministries. Refer to the list above. Therefore if translating diakonos as "minister" causes the reader to be confused, and to think Phoebe was the pastor of the local congregation, it would not be communicating what that verse is actually saying.

All of the Greek-English Lexicons take the position that diakonos should be translated as "deaconess" in Romans 16: 1. See Thayer's Greek Enlish Lexicon, p. 138. Thayer says, "diakonos, a deaconess, a woman to whom the care of either poor or sick women was entrusted, Ro. 16: 1."

A Reader's Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament, at Rom. 16: 1, reads, "diakonos, deaconess, servant." It occurs 4 times in the book of Romans and 29 times throughout the New Testament. (Andrews University Press, Sakae Kubo, 1975)

Gingrich's Shorter Lexicon of the Greek New Testament, p. 49: "diakonos, deaconess Ro 16: 1."

Greek-English Lexicon To the New Testament, p. 43, "diakonos, a deaconess, Rom. 16L 1."

(W. J. Hickie, M.A., The New Testament In Greek, Westcott & Hort, Macmillan Co., New York, 1941)

A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, page 184, "diakonos... b. deaconess... Phoebe as diakonos Rom 16: 1..." (Bauer Arndt Gincrich)

Quote:

teresaq(sda): while Jesus made Himself a servant to man, i for one dont want to put Him in such a lowly state as "deaconess" or "ministring servant."

No one is saying Jesus is a deacon. A "deaconess," of course, is a female deacon, and we know Jesus is a man. But yes, Jesus was a ministering servant. He was a servant of His Father and He ministered to all humanity. The book of Hebrews says Jesus continues to be a "minister of the true sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle..." Heb. 8: 2, 6.

Quote:

teresaq(sda):otherwise it pretty much looks like one is just going on "bias" as to how they choose to label phebe.

Look again:

All of the Greek-English Lexicons take the position that diakonos should be translated as "deaconess" in Romans 16: 1. See Thayer's Greek Enlish Lexicon, p. 138. Thayer says, "diakonos, a deaconess, a woman to whom the care of either poor or sick women was entrusted, Ro. 16: 1."

A Reader's Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament, at Rom. 16: 1, reads, "diakonos, deaconess, servant." It occurs 4 times in the book of Romans and 29 times throughout the New Testament. (Andrews University Press, Sakae Kubo, 1975)

Gingrich's Shorter Lexicon of the Greek New Testament, p. 49: "diakonos, deaconess Ro 16: 1."

Greek-English Lexicon To the New Testament, p. 43, "diakonos, a deaconess, Rom. 16L 1."

(W. J. Hickie, M.A., The New Testament In Greek, Westcott & Hort, Macmillan Co., New York, 1941)

A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, page 184, "diakonos... b. deaconess... Phoebe as diakonos Rom 16: 1..." (Bauer Arndt Gincrich)

Most translations of Romans 16: 1 translate diakonos as "deaconess," "servant," while a minor number of translations have "ministering servant," "helper," "worker," "minister."

Do you really think that Phoebe was a bishop or minister of the local congregation at Cenchrea? How could that happen, given what we know Paul wrote? Paul wrote to the church of Corinth-- only a few miles from Cenchrea, where Tom claims this woman was a "female bishop" and "overseer,"-- that "as in all the congregations of the saints, let your women keep silent in the churches because they are not permitted to speak, but they are to be submissive, as the law also says." How could Paul have written this with a straight face while the main leader of the church was a woman, who had authority over Paul himself, to say nothing of having authority over all the other pastors and elders?

Was this indeed the same Paul who would later go on to write, "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence, because Adam was formed first, then Eve"? 1 Tim. 2: 12-13

[John317]

Quote:

Tom Wetmore: It bears repeating...

And not all versions translate diakonos in regard to Phoebe as "servant" or "helper". Darby translates it as "minister" and the Young literal translation translates verses one and two as follows:

And I commend you to Phebe our sister -- being a ministrant of the assembly that [is] in Cenchrea -- that ye may receive her in the Lord, as doth become saints, and may assist her in whatever matter she may have need of you -- for she also became a leader of many, and of myself.

Yes, I have a copy of John Darby's translation and for the most part I like it very much, although it is not smooth reading. Do you own a copy of it yourself? If so, please look at Romans 16: 2 and read the footnote. What does it say? I read, "diakonos; deacon, or deaconess."

I think what you may not be taking into account is the fact that the word diakonos is a word with a very broad meaning, which means that "ministry" is also a broad word. In fact, in the NT, practically anything a believer does in the work of the church may properly be termed "ministry." Therefore, to translate Romans 16: 1 as "minister" does not give us a true or full picture of what Phoebe did in the local church.

As John Darby said in his footnotes, "She did the needed service in the assembly there." She was not a servant properly speaking, and neither was she the pastor of the church. She was a deaconess, just as most translations give it, and as John Darby himself says. Darby translated the word, diakonos, literally as "minister," but he wants the reader to understand what kind of minister Phoebe was-- a deaconess, not a pastor or elder.

Here is evidence showing that I am not simply going by my wishes or prejudices when it comes to the way to correctly translate Romans 16: 2.

All of the Greek-English Lexicons take the position that diakonos should be translated as "deaconess" in Romans 16: 1. See Thayer's Greek Enlish Lexicon, p. 138. Thayer says, "diakonos, a deaconess, a woman to whom the care of either poor or sick women was entrusted, Ro. 16: 1."

A Reader's Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament, at Rom. 16: 1, reads, "diakonos, deaconess, servant." It occurs 4 times in the book of Romans and 29 times throughout the New Testament. (Andrews University Press, Sakae Kubo, 1975)

Gingrich's Shorter Lexicon of the Greek New Testament, p. 49: "diakonos, deaconess Ro 16: 1."

Greek-English Lexicon To the New Testament, p. 43, "diakonos, a deaconess, Rom. 16L 1."(W. J. Hickie, M.A., The New Testament In Greek, Westcott & Hort, Macmillan Co., New York, 1941)

A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, page 184, "diakonos... b. deaconess... Phoebe as diakonos Rom 16: 1..." (Bauer Arndt Gincrich)

Most translations of Romans 16: 1 translate diakonos as "deaconess," "servant," while a minor number of translations have "ministering servant," "helper," "worker," "minister."

Do you really think that Phoebe was a bishop or minister of the local congregation at Cenchrea? How could that happen, given what we know Paul wrote? Paul wrote to the church of Corinth-- only a few miles from Cenchrea, where you claim this woman was a "female bishop" and "overseer,"-- that "as in all the congregations of the saints, let your women keep silent in the churches because they are not permitted to speak, but they are to be submissive, as the law also says."

How could Paul have written this with a straight face while the main leader of the church was a woman, who had authority over Paul himself, to say nothing of having authority over all the other pastors and elders?

Was this indeed the same Paul who would later go on to write, "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence, because Adam was formed first, then Eve"? 1 Tim. 2: 12-13

[teresaq]

Quote:

teresaq(sda): oh, ok. so paul was a "deaconess" or "ministring servant."

As you can see by studying any Greek-English Lexicon and by looking up all the occurrences of the word diakonos, it does not take the same meaning in every verse.

diakonos [minister] is a very general term. Let's go through those definitions again:

1) One who renders service to another; an attendant, servant, Matt. 20; 26; 22: 13; John 2: 5, 9.

2) One who executes a commission, a deputy, Rom. 13: 4

3) A commissioned minister or preacher of the Gospel, 1 Cor. 3: 5; 2 Cor. 6: 4

4) A minister charged with an announcement or sentence, 2 Cor. 3: 6; Gal. 2: 17; Col. 1: 23

5) A minister charged with a significant characteristic, Romans 15: 8

6) A servitor, devoted follower, John 12: 26

7) A deacon or deaconess, whose official duty was to superintend the aims of the Church, with other kindred services, Romans 16: 1; Phil. 1: 1; 1 Tim. 3: 8, 12.

Quote:

teresaq(sda): i believe the general consensus disagrees with your conclusions, but what would they know?

If you believe so, see the evidence below:

The vast majority of the translations of Romans 16: 1 translate diakonos as "deaconess," "servant," while a minor number of translations have "ministering servant," "helper," "worker," "minister."

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: John317

Do I sense unhappiness on your part with the way the Bible has been translated, particularly in verses dealing with women's role in the church? Do you suspect some kind of conspiracy on the part of all (or perhaps most) of the translators and Greek scholars?

... Think what confusion has resulted from the added comma in Luke 23:43. Or the loss of the graphic imagery of our righteousness as merely dirty rags.

...

There's not a conspiracy. It is just the lack of courage to stick one's neck out and differ from the rest of the herd - a lack of the courage of ones convictions.

For a comprehensive look at the issues and the facts - http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/wo/index.htm

If you are willing to consider all the evidence, read it all.

yes, the fact that so many times the mistakes, or bias, of the translators has been pointed out makes the question rather ridiculous in my opinion.

unless of course we believe the translators to be infallible, or on an equal inspiration wise? i certainly hope that is not the case.

our pioneers were willing to investigate all beliefs and to adopt scripture at great risk of ridicule and going against the grain.

its sad to see that we, their descendants, are not so motivated.

[Tom Wetmore]

"John317",

For someone that has repeatedly claimed to be open-minded about this topic and open to Biblical evidence contrary to your admitted bias against women in ministry, you sure do expend huge quantities of words fighting against any such evidence. I do not recall you ever conceding a point made in favor of women in ministry, even on Biblical grounds.

That said, you need to read and comprehend more carefully...

Can you find a single translation of Romans 16: 2 in which the word

is translated "a woman set over others"?

In the very same post I quoted from Young's literal translation and repeated it above before your very long post. And you subsequently to that question re-quoted it. The word used in Young's was leader. When used in direct context about a woman, that single word captures quite well the definition of prostatis - "a woman set over others". (The Greek prefix "pro" literally means "before" and sometimes is translated as "above" and statis is where we get the word status. So her status was above or before that of others.)

And you seem to want to greatly minimize or ignore the evidence of the closely related verb, proistemi from which the noun prostatis is derived. Your dismissive approach to that verb's frequent translation as "to rule" of "be over" is bafflingly incomprehensible. Of course it is not used in Romans 16:2. The noun form is used to identify one who does what the verb describes. That verb is used specifically in reference to the role of elders and other leaders of the church.

Part of the problem as I see it is that you are vigorously striving to maintain consistency with the literal meaning of diakonos as simply a servant while ignoring its full meaning and common usage in the NT and attempting to reconcile prostatis to that narrow lowly status. That is looking at it backwards and forces a strained meaning in the context of all the rest of what Paul says about Phoebe in verses 1 and 2. Describing her as merely a helper and humble servant is inconsistent with the admonition to the Roman believers to regard and treat her as a saint and do as she asked, or in other words, to serve her, instead of the other way around.

You do not sound like someone open to contrary evidence that might persuade you to change your mind. I'm just saying...

[Tom Wetmore]

The more I delve deeply into the meaning of the original Greek words used by Paul to describe Phoebe in those first two verses of Romans 16, the more convinced I am that this was a woman of great significance within the NT church.

Verse 1 - "Commend" from the Greek word synistemi which means not merely a formal word of introduction but a putting together with approval. That suggests that Paul is doing more than merely identifying and introducing the letter carrier. He is making an assignment that Phoebe is now to be put together with the church in Rome as one now to be a part of it.

Verse 2 - "that you may receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints..." The word "receive" from the Greek word prosdechomai means receive and accept what is given.

Accepting her "in the Lord" has the connotation of accepting ones position or standing in relationship to the Lord which Paul describes as "in a manner worthy of the saints". The word "saints" is from the Greek word hagios which means "holy ones" or literally "reverend" or "worthy of veneration".

That in addition to his singular reference to her as a prostatis speaks of one for whom Paul has the highest regard and respect.

This is simply no ordinary introduction of a fellow believer of equal or lower standing within the church. Paul doesn't build many others up in similar fashion, using so many accolades and terms of respect and standing. This is unusual.

[John317]

Quote:

teresaq(sda): oh, ok. so paul was a "deaconess" or "ministring servant."

Paul was obviously not a deaconess.

Quote:

JOHN3:17: As you can see by studying any Greek-English Lexicon and by looking up all the occurrences of the word diakonos, it does not take the same meaning in every verse.

diakonos [minister] is a very general term. Let's go through those definitions again:

1) One who renders service to another; an attendant, servant, Matt. 20; 26; 22: 13; John 2: 5, 9.

2) One who executes a commission, a deputy, Rom. 13: 4

3) A commissioned minister or preacher of the Gospel, 1 Cor. 3: 5; 2 Cor. 6: 4

4) A minister charged with an announcement or sentence, 2 Cor. 3: 6; Gal. 2: 17; Col. 1: 23

5) A minister charged with a significant characteristic, Romans 15: 8

6) A servitor, devoted follower, John 12: 26

7) A deacon or deaconess, whose official duty was to superintend the aims of the Church, with other kindred services, Romans 16: 1; Phil. 1: 1; 1 Tim. 3: 8, 12.

Quote:

teresaq(sda): i believe the general consensus disagrees with your conclusions, but what would they know?

Quote:

JOHN3:17: If you believe so, see the evidence below:

The vast majority of the translations of Romans 16: 1 translate diakonos as "deaconess," "servant," while a minor number of translations have "ministering servant," "helper," "worker," "minister."

Quote:

teresaq(sda): well, if you believe paul and Jesus to be "deacons" so be it.

Of course neither Jesus nor Paul were deacons. As I've shown already, the word diakonos is a general word for ministry, the meaning of which is quite broad. I encourage you to study all the occurrences of diakonos in the NT. See above for the list of 7 different meanings in the New Testament. Look up the references in the Bible and see for yourself that not all uses of diakonos mean the same thing.

Quote:

JOHN3:17: Was this indeed the same Paul who would later go on to write, "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence, because Adam was formed first, then Eve"? 1 Tim. 2: 12-13

Quote:

teresaq(sda):and that pretty much does away with the ministry of ellen white. we cant have it both ways with verbal gymnastics.

Do you really think that Paul's inspired instructions in 1 Tim. 2: 12-13 and 1 Cor. 14: 34-38 would prohibit Ellen White's prophetic ministry?

No, it does not do away with Ellen White's ministry. I'm a strong believer in Ellen White's prophetic ministry. Remember that there were female prophets in the Old Testament as well as in the NT church. 1 Cor. 11: 5 shows that women both prayed and preached pubically in the NT church.

Ellen White's work and ministry therefore did not violate any principle set forth in the New Testament. God would not have inspired her to do that. She was very careful in her ministry to show that she abided by the whole Bible.

[Gregory Matthews]

John 317 said:

Quote:

Ellen White work and ministry therefore did not violate any principle set forth in the New Testament. God would not have inspired her to do that. She was very careful in her ministry to show that she abided by the whole Bible.

O.K.

1) EGW accepted the credentials of an ordained minister and accepted being listed as such in the YEARABOOK.

2) EGW reproved male denominational leaders and therefore stood in a position of authority over them.

3) EGW did the work of an evangilist.

4) In many ways EGW did the same work as the male ordained ministers during the early organizational years of this denominaiton. NOTE: In those early years, James White was ordained but not a congregational pastor. Such pastors were what we typically call local elders today.

In no time did EGW ever object to holding the credentials of an ordained minister. and as you say, she was careful to abide by the Bible and the counsel of God.

[teresaq]

The more I delve deeply into the meaning of the original Greek words used by Paul to describe Phoebe in those first two verses of Romans 16, the more convinced I am that this was a woman of great significance within the NT church.

Verse 1 - "Commend" from the Greek word synistemi which means not merely a formal word of introduction but a putting together with approval. That suggests that Paul is doing more than merely identifying and introducing the letter carrier. He is making an assignment that Phoebe is now to be put together with the church in Rome as one now to be a part of it.

Verse 2 - "that you may receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints..." The word "receive" from the Greek word prosdechomai means receive and accept what is given.

Accepting her "in the Lord" has the connotation of accepting ones position or standing in relationship to the Lord which Paul describes as "in a manner worthy of the saints". The word "saints" is from the Greek word hagios which means "holy ones" or literally "reverend" or "worthy of veneration".

That in addition to his singular reference to her as a prostatis speaks of one for whom Paul has the highest regard and respect.

This is simply no ordinary introduction of a fellow believer of equal or lower standing within the church. Paul doesn't build many others up in similar fashion, using so many accolades and terms of respect and standing. This is unusual.

here are the geneva notes to that verse.

Rom 16:1 I (1) commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:

(1) Having made an end of the whole discussion, he comes now to familiar commendations and salutations, and that to good consideration and purpose, that is, that the Romans might know who are most to be honoured and to be considered among them: and also whom they ought to set before them to follow: and therefore he attributes to every of them individual and singular testimonies.

[teresaq]

John 317 said:

Quote:

Ellen White work and ministry therefore did not violate any principle set forth in the New Testament. God would not have inspired her to do that. She was very careful in her ministry to show that she abided by the whole Bible.

O.K.

1) EGW accepted the credentials of an ordained minister and accepted being listed as such in the YEARABOOK.

2) EGW reproved male denominational leaders and therefore stood in a position of authority over them.

3) EGW did the work of an evangilist.

4) In many ways EGW did the same work as the male ordained ministers during the early organizational years of this denominaiton. NOTE: In those early years, James White was ordained but not a congregational pastor. Such pastors were what we typically call local elders today.

In no time did EGW ever object to holding the credentials of an ordained minister. and as you say, she was careful to abide by the Bible and the counsel of God.

this might help in the discussion:

To the Jew this form was a significant one. When a Jewish father blessed his children, he laid his hands reverently upon their heads. When an animal was devoted to sacrifice, the hand of the one invested with priestly authority was laid upon the head of the victim. And when the ministers of the church of believers in Antioch laid their hands upon Paul and Barnabas, they, by that action, asked God to bestow His blessing upon the chosen apostles in their devotion to the specific work to which they had been appointed. {AA 162.1}

At a later date the rite of ordination by the laying on of hands was greatly abused; unwarrantable importance was attached to the act, as if a power came at once upon those who received such ordination, which immediately qualified them for any and all ministerial work. But in the setting apart of these two apostles, there is no record indicating that any virtue was imparted by the mere act of laying on of hands. There is only the simple record of their ordination and of the bearing that it had on their future work. {AA 162.2}

according to this we each one of us need to be "ordained".

[John317]

Quote:

Tom Wetmore:

For someone that has repeatedly claimed to be open-minded about this topic and open to Biblical evidence contrary to your admitted bias against women in ministry, you sure do expend huge quantities of words fighting against any such evidence. I do not recall you ever conceding a point made in favor of women in ministry, even on Biblical grounds.

Maybe that's because you haven't given me any such "point" from the Bible evidence. Most of your "points" have been of an historical nature, not biblical. I don't consider your idea that Paul recognized Phoebe as a superior, or, as you said, "a female bishop," to be valid biblical evidence. It's a theory but it goes against everything Paul ever wrote.

By the way, I'm not opposed to "women in ministry." I've repeatedly stated on this Forum that the Bible encourages women to be in various ministries. I am, however, "biased" against women becoming pastors and elders of local congregations. But that is not the same as being against women in ministry. As I've shown before, "ministry" is a broad word in the Bible. Women can be in all kinds of ministries without being ordained and being pastors and elders of local congregations.

I won't "fall" for your personal remarks about anything. Anyone can say such stuff and go back and forth that way. I really do not care if you or anyone else believes that I am open to biblical evidence on this or on any other topic. I'm not here to try to persuade you to think that I am. I state what I believe and how I feel, and you can do what you want to do with it.

As for huge quantities of writing-- if you check my posts, you will see that I expend huge amounts quantities of words on anything I'm interested in, whether it's prophecy, history, literature, philosophy, psychology, ideas, photography, art, etc. I love to study, do research and write. They're hobbies. So, now I am writing about church organization, and tomorrow I'll go back to writing "huge quantities of words" about the end-times.

Can you show the biblical evidence favoring women's ordination as pastors and elders of local congregations?

[karl]

By the way, I'm not opposed to "women in ministry." I've repeatedly stated on this Forum that the Bible encourages women to be in various ministries. I am, however, "biased" against women becoming pastors and elders of local congregations. But that is not the same as being against women in ministry.

There is a long list of various ministries EGW recommends for "our sisters' in the December 12th and 19th, 1878, issue of Review and Herald.

Conspicuously absent from the list is "pastor" or "elder."

Although she is often made out to be one, EGW was not a women's libber. She discouraged Adventist women from getting involved in the women's lib movement.

"I do not recommend that woman should seek to become a voter or officeholder; but as a missionary, teaching the truth by epistolary correspondence, distributing reading matter, conversing with families and praying with the mother and children, she may do much and be a blessing."-- Signs of the Times, Sept. 16, 1886.

Below, EGW puts home missionary work at the top of the list.

"Sisters, God calls you to work in the harvest field and to help gather in the sheaves.... In the various lines of home missionary work the modest, intelligent woman may use her powers to the very highest account."--Review and Herald, Dec. 10, 1914.

Note carefully the sentence in red below. This paragraph is speaking about work women can do for Christ.

"Christian women are called for. There is a wide field in which they may do good service for the Master. There are noble women who have had moral courage to decide in favor of the truth from the weight of evidence. They have tact, perception, and good ability, and could make successful Christian workers. There is work neglected or done imperfectly that could be thoroughly accomplished through the help that they are able to give. They could reach a class that ministers cannot reach. There are offices in the church that they could fill acceptably, and many branches of the church work that they could attend to if properly instructed." {ST, September 16, 1886 par. 5}

[John317]

Quote:

Tom Wetmore: That said, you need to read and comprehend more carefully...

JOHN3:17 said, Can you find a single translation of Romans 16: 2 in which the word

is translated "a woman set over others"?

Tom Wetmore: (The Greek suffix "pro" literally means "before" and sometimes is translated as "above" and statis is where we get the word status. So her status was above or before that of others.)

Pretty close, Tom. But "pro" is not a suffix; it's a prefix.

Here's the definiton of "suffix:"

Quote:

Suffixes are groups of letters placed after a word to modify its meaning or change it into a different word group, from an adjective to an adverb, etc.

EG: gladly (the suffix -ly changes the word from an adjective to an adverb)

approached (the suffix -ed changes the verb from the present to the past)

Example of suffix and prefix:

1) Suffix: ouran-ios---- the suffix is "ios" making the noun ouranos (heaven) into an adjective, heavenly

2) Prefix: a-dikos--- the prefix is "a" and it changes "just," dikaios, into "unjust."

Could you tell me where "pro" means "above" as in someone's status being above someone else? It is translated "above" in James 5: 12 and 1 Peter 1: 20, but in those verses, it also means "before" and does not refer to anything or anyone being in a superior position.

The text reads, "But above all things, my brethren, do not be swearing..."

It could just as easily be, and is, translated, "Now before all, my brethren, do not be swearing..." (Concordant Literal Translation).

Again, "And before all things, my brethren, do not swear..." (Young's Literal Translation).

Therefore, it really is not true that "pro" ever means "above" in the New Testament, at least in terms of being in a superior position over something or someone. Any standard Greek grammar will tell you that its primary meaning is "before," and nothing else. Of course, as you must know, the usual preposition and prefix for "over" & "above" is huper. (See, for example, Matt. 10: 24.) For instance, huperano means "far above" in Eph. 4: 10, and huperballontos means "above measure" in 2 Cor. 11: 33.

In the case of prostatis, the prefix, pro, means "before," and the stem, "statis" is from the Greek word, stasis (Strong's #4714), meaning "to stand, have stability, a standing, a state" (See its use in Hebrews 9: 8, "... the first tabernacle was still standing.")

One who stands before someone else is a "protector" or "defender." Thus prostatis, particularly as it is used in Romans 16: 2, is always defined in the Greek lexicons as "a female guardian; a protector, Ro xvi (RV a succourer)" (Greek English Lexicon To the New Testament, W. J. Hickie, M.A.,p. 165).

"prostatis-- a patroness, protectress, Ro 16: 2" (Interlinear, William D. Mounce, p. 884).

"prostatis-- protectress, patroness, helper" (A Reader's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Sakae Kubo, page 147)

Therefore, many excellent translations render the verb and noun, "has given protection" (Charles B. Williams' NT); "became a benefactress" (Kenneth S. Wuest); "became a patroness" (Concordant Literal NT); "hath been a helper" (American Standard Version, 1901); "has become a protector" (William F Beck, The Holy Bible); "has proved to be a defender" (J. B. Rotherham); "has been a benefactor" (Richmond Lattimore, Acts and Letters of the Apostles); "has been a benefactor" (The New Testament, St. Paul Catholic Edition); "has rendered much assistance" (Boyce W. Blackwelder, Letters From Paul); "has assisted" (from the Latin, Confraternity Version); "ayudo" [Engl. "has been a help"] (Santa Biblia); "has been a help" (Lamsa's translation from ancient Aramaic Peshitta texts); "has been of great assistance" (J.P. Phillips); "has been a great help" (The New Translation); "has been a help" (James Moffatt); and "has been a helper" (The New King James Version). I could give about 45 more translations but the above gives the good sampling of what experts in biblical Greek understand Paul to be saying by the word, prostatis.

By the way, Richmond Lattimore was the world's foremost translator of Greek texts, having taught Greek for decades at top universities, including Bryn Mawr College, and also having translated and taught most of the Greek classics. His translations are among the finest ever produced and are still widely available.

Richmond Alexander Lattimore (May 6, 1906 - February 26, 1984) was an American poet and translator known for his translations of the Greek classics, especially his versions of the Iliad and Odyssey, which are generally considered as among the best English translations available. Richmond was a Rhodes Scholar at Christ Church, Oxford and received his B.A. in 1932, then received a Ph.D. from the University of Illinois in 1934. He joined the Department of Greek at Bryn Mawr College the following year, and spent the rest of the next three decades teaching the Greek classics and translation at Bryn Mawr College, with periodic visiting positions at other universities, until his retirement in 1971.

He translated the Revelation of John in 1962. A 1979 edition by McGraw-Hill Ryerson included the four Gospels. Lattimore completed translating the New Testament, which was published posthumously in 1996 with the title The New Testament.

Interestingly enough, Lattimore translated prostatis in Rom. 16: 2 as, "has been a benefactor." After doing independent research into this word, I'm pretty sure he got this one right.

Rotherham's translation is probably the most consistently dependable and literal translations of the Bible I know of among my 65+ translations. It reads, "hath proved to be a defender."

I'll add to this post in a few hours after I get up. It's time to hit the sack for a while.

[John317]

I very much appreciate your post with its good and practical information. Thank you. Later I'll respond in greater detail.

[Tom Wetmore]

Pretty close, Tom. But "pro" is not a suffix; it's a prefix.

Here's the definiton of "suffix:...

OK, it was a silly typo... I corrected it. No need to throw the encyclopedia at it...

[Tom Wetmore]

...There is a long list of various ministries EGW recommends for "our sisters' in the December 12th and 19th, 1878, issue of Review and Herald.

Conspicuously absent from the list is "pastor" or "elder."...

Are you familar with her encouragement that women be trained and prepared for pastoral ministry? that she also said that women can manage (elder's role and function...) the local church? You may want to add these to the "long list"...

She said it is the "accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors of the flock of God." - RH, Jan 15, 1901, emphasis added.

“…introducing our publications into families, conversing, and praying with and for them is a good work, AND ONE WHICH WILL EDUCATE MEN AND WOMEN TO DO PASTORAL LABOR." -- RH, April 4, 1882, emphasis added.

"The Lord has given Christ to the world for ministry. Merely to preach the Word is not ministry. The Lord desires His ministering servants to occupy a place worthy of the highest consideration. In the mind of God, the ministry of men and women existed before the world was created." - Ellen White, Diary entry March 12, 1891, Ms 23-1891, emphasis added.

"she has a ministerial license and bears many burdens of their church at Napier. She speaks to the people, is intelligent and every way capable." -- Mss 22, 1893.

"It is not always men who are best adapted to the successful management of a church. If faithful women have more deep piety and true devotion than men, they could indeed by their prayers and their labors do more than men who are unconsecrated in heart and in life." Letter 33, 1879, p. 2.

[karl]

She said it is the "accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors of the flock of God." - RH, Jan 15, 1901, emphasis added.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: John317

By the way, I'm not opposed to "women in ministry." I've repeatedly stated on this Forum that the Bible encourages women to be in various ministries. I am, however, "biased" against women becoming pastors and elders of local congregations. But that is not the same as being against women in ministry.

There is a long list of various ministries EGW recommends for "our sisters' in the December 12th and 19th, 1878, issue of Review and Herald.

Conspicuously absent from the list is "pastor" or "elder."

Although she is often made out to be one, EGW was not a women's libber. She discouraged Adventist women from getting involved in the women's lib movement.

"I do not recommend that woman should seek to become a voter or officeholder; but as a missionary, teaching the truth by epistolary correspondence, distributing reading matter, conversing with families and praying with the mother and children, she may do much and be a blessing."-- Signs of the Times, Sept. 16, 1886.

Below, EGW puts home missionary work at the top of the list.

"Sisters, God calls you to work in the harvest field and to help gather in the sheaves.... In the various lines of home missionary work the modest, intelligent woman may use her powers to the very highest account."--Review and Herald, Dec. 10, 1914.

Note carefully the sentence in red below. This paragraph is speaking about work women can do for Christ.

"Christian women are called for. There is a wide field in which they may do good service for the Master. There are noble women who have had moral courage to decide in favor of the truth from the weight of evidence. They have tact, perception, and good ability, and could make successful Christian workers. There is work neglected or done imperfectly that could be thoroughly accomplished through the help that they are able to give. They could reach a class that ministers cannot reach. There are offices in the church that they could fill acceptably, and many branches of the church work that they could attend to if properly instructed." {ST, September 16, 1886 par. 5}

All who wish an opportunity for true ministry, and who will give themselves unreservedly to God, will find in the canvassing work opportunities to speak upon many things pertaining to the future immortal life. The experience thus gained will be of the greatest value to those who are fitting themselves for the work of the ministry. It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors to the flock of God. ... {RH, January 15, 1901 par. 5}

Rom 16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:

Rom 16:2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.

Rom 16:3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:

[teresaq]

...but they should also feel the importance of spending a portion of their money in supporting the living preacher in the cities where labor wisely expended will be very effective. {12MR 165.2}

The printed page cannot accomplish alone the work that the living minister can do. He can explain the Scriptures to the people, praying with them and appealing to them, and making effective the truths of the Bible. Not merely one or two men are called to do this work, but many men and women who have ability to preach and teach the Word. {12MR 165.3}

As the messengers of God teach the Word, and live themselves by its truths, heavenly angels will set home the words to minds and hearts. One living discourse to a congregation of hearers may do a work that many publications could not accomplish. The minister's words, spoken under the Holy Spirit's guidance, his example in his association with the people, will accomplish a work that our publications of themselves cannot do. {12MR 166.1}

If necessary, let us limit the number of our periodical publications, and let us send forth men and women to labor in faith and consecration for the giving of this last message of mercy to the world. When it is possible let the minister and his wife go forth together. The wife can often labor by the side of her husband, accomplishing a noble work. She can visit the homes of the people and help the women in these families in a way that her husband cannot. {12MR 166.2}

Some will offer themselves for service who are not adapted to this line of work. Direct these to a work that they can do, and encourage them to study the first chapter of 2 Peter. Here is a representation of the experiences that will fit men and women to become efficient workers of God. {12MR 166.3}

Select women who will act an earnest part. The Lord will use intelligent women in the work of teaching. And let none feel that these women, who understand the Word, and who have ability to teach, should not receive remuneration for their labors. They should be paid as verily as are their husbands. There is a great work for women to do in the cause of present truth. Through the exercise of womanly tact and wise use of their knowledge of Bible truth, they can remove difficulties that our brethren cannot meet. We need women workers to labor in connection with their husbands, and we should encourage those who wish to engage in this line of missionary effort. {12MR 166.4}

Elder Haskell and his wife have united their labors in the California Conference. Conditions here demanded the capabilities of both. Let none question the right of Sister Haskell to receive remuneration for her work. Dr. Kress and his wife are likewise capable of uniting in missionary effort. None would question the right of Sister Kress to receive a salary. Laboring thus, Brother and Sister Kress can accomplish more than if they labored separately. {12MR 167.1}

Study the Scriptures for further light on this point. Women were among Christ's devoted followers in the days of His ministry, and Paul makes mention of certain women who were helpers together with him in the gospel (see Philippians 4:2, 3).--Letter 142, 1909, pp. 4-6. (To A. G. Daniells, Oct. 27, 1909)

Php 4:1 Therefore, my brethren dearly beloved and longed for, my joy and crown, so stand fast in the Lord, my dearly beloved.

Php 4:2 I beseech Euodias, and beseech Syntyche, that they be of the same mind in the Lord.

Php 4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

[teresaq]

Quote:

Tom Wetmore: That said, you need to read and comprehend more carefully...

JOHN3:17 said, Can you find a single translation of Romans 16: 2 in which the word

is translated "a woman set over others"?

Tom Wetmore: (The Greek suffix "pro" literally means "before" and sometimes is translated as "above" and statis is where we get the word status. So her status was above or before that of others.)

....

Could you tell me where "pro" means "above" as in someone's status being above someone else? It is translated "above" in James 5: 12 and 1 Peter 1: 20, but in those verses, it also means "before" and does not refer to anything or anyone being in a superior position.

.....

Therefore, it really is not true that "pro" ever means "above" in the New Testament, at least in terms of being in a superior position over something or someone. ...

so it basically comes down to what one chooses to believe....

G4368 prostatis

Thayer Definition:

1) a woman set over others

2) a female guardian, protectress, patroness, caring for the affairs of others and aiding them with her resources

Part of Speech: noun feminine

A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from a derivative of G4291

G4291 proistēmi

Thayer Definition:

1) to set or place before

1a) to set over

1b) to be over, to superintend, preside over

1c) to be a protector or guardian

1c1) to give aid

1d) to care for, give attention to

1d1) profess honest occupations

Part of Speech: verb

A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4253 and G2476

Citing in TDNT: 6:700,*

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: John317

Pretty close, Tom. But "pro" is not a suffix; it's a prefix.

Here's the definiton of "suffix:...

OK, it was a silly typo... I corrected it. No need to throw the encyclopedia at it...

i think most of us knew you have a life and cant always proofread... :)

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

She said it is the "accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors of the flock of God." - RH, Jan 15, 1901, emphasis added.

Context is everything. This is specifically referring, not to church pastors, but to canvassers.

"Context is everything."

how true! please note:

All who wish an opportunity for true ministry,

and who will give themselves unreservedly to God,

will find in the canvassing work opportunities to speak upon many things pertaining to the future immortal life.

The experience thus gained will be of the

greatest value to those who are fitting themselves for the

work of the ministry.

It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers,

both men and women,

to become pastors to the flock of God. {RH, January 15, 1901 par. 5}

there is no dispute that this particular article is discussing canvassing work. what is at dispute is what this paragraph is saying.

i cant help but read it to say that the canvassing work would be a great learning experience for men and women wishing to enter ministerial work by becoming pastors.

[Tom Wetmore]

karl,

there is no dispute that this particular article is discussing canvassing work. what is at dispute is what this paragraph is saying.

i cant help but read it to say that the canvassing work would be a great learning experience for men and women wishing to enter ministerial work by becoming pastors.

What she said...

Yes that is the context, but she clearly is saying that such work is good preparation for pastoral ministry for both men and women. You said, "Conspicuously absent from the list [of ministries for women] is "pastor" or "elder."

And when I point out several quotes where sh does in fact include women in the idea of pastoral minsitry you try to say it means something else. You are simply ignoring the plain meaning of what she said.

[John317]

Quote:

teresaq(sda): here are the geneva notes to that verse.

Rom 16:1 I (1) commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:

(1) Having made an end of the whole discussion, he comes now to familiar commendations and salutations, and that to good consideration and purpose, that is, that the Romans might know who are most to be honoured and to be considered among them: and also whom they ought to set before them to follow: and therefore he attributes to every of them individual and singular testimonies.

Sure, I can agree with those comments. The comments above refer to all the commendations in chapter 16 and not only to those concerning Phoebe.

Notice that the notes in the Geneva Bible do not even suggest that Phoebe was a bishop or that she was over Paul, nor do they mention anything about her possibly being the pastor of the church in Cenchrea.

Also notice that Romans 16: 1, 2 in the Geneva Bible refers to Phoebe as a "servant" in verse 1 and says in verse 2 that she has "given hospitality to many," and to Paul also. This is in harmony with the thinking of most NT scholars.

[karl]

Yes that is the context, but she clearly is saying that such work is good preparation for pastoral ministry for both men and women. You said, "Conspicuously absent from the list [of ministries for women] is "pastor" or "elder."

And when I point out several quotes where sh does in fact include women in the idea of pastoral minsitry you try to say it means something else. You are simply ignoring the plain meaning of what she said.

Not at all. You are reading into it what you want to be there. That is: the preparation for a headship position in a church. The context and the message is for canvassers. This is only a passage about women's ordination in the minds of WO proponents, and then only because they are really, really wanting it to be.

Tom, there are so many instances of EGW directing the church with a clear message from God - even in things that are to come (like the worsening health effects of flesh foods.) There is no clear, positive directive regarding women in church pastoral headship positions. One must surmise any such counsel to get it. Same with the Bible. One must find some kinda sorta allusion to it. Some obscure reference to Phoebe must be focussed upon when the truth is an elephant in the room.

There IS clear directive from EGW, published in Testimonies to the Church, about women not trying to move above the position God appointed them to. And this counsel is given specifically in the context of God appointing men the headship role (EGW uses the word "superior" but it seems that term gives WO advocates apoplexy.)

The recent assumption here on this thread that the apostle John also meant "queens" when he wrote "kings" and that he also meant "priestesses" when he wrote "priests" is unwarranted. John knew the difference.

I cannot say that some of my favorite preachers are women or that there's a woman heading up a ministry I support regularly. Can't throw you that bone, but there is no question that this church is very beholden to women and their dedicated service. If we start ordaining women to head up churches, I'm not going to leave the Adventist church, but I think it is VERY clear that the only use God has made of women in headship positions has been the rare exception to His standard practice.

Why do you suppose that is, Tom?