Doug Batchelor Preaches Against Women Pastors

[teresaq]

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John317:

...The apostle Paul is concerned to preseve male leadership in teaching and governing of the church.

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Tom Wetmore: Then why would Paul specifically refer to Phoebe as a leader for the believers in Rome to listen to and do as she instructed?

Notice that the New King James Version and the NIV refer to her as a "servant [Gk.diakonos, Strong's #1249] of the church in Cenchrea" (Rom. 16: 1). Most Bible scholars believe she was a deaconess. For instance, the Amplified Bible reads, "a deaconness of the church at Cenchreae." The vast majority of the translations show her to have been a "helper [Gk. prostatis, strong's #4368] of many," including Paul. This word only occurs here and is defined as "patroness; protectress."

[John317]

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Tom Wetmore: ...What do you do with the clear historic evidence within the Adventist Church that Tucker speaks of and that Doug is either in denial about or ignorant of?

Our theology can't be based on what has happened in the past but on what the Bible teaches.

I can't speak for Doug Batchelor, but I'm sure he's not ignorant of what Mike Tucker has written. Not everything Mike Tucker wrote is accurate, however. And the fact that there were women in the church who were given ministrial licenses or ordained is well known.

There are legitimate differences in how people understand that "clear historic evidence."

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Tom Wetmore: In proportion to the Church membership and the total number of clergy in the Adventist denomination at that time, there were more women in ministry in EGW's day than there are now. And yes, "John317", women were in fact pastoring churches, doing evangelism, and in leadership roles, both singularly and with husbands.

It's widely known that women were doing evangelism and in various leadership roles in the conferences, and working alongside their husbands. That's not in dispute. The Bible certainly encourages women to be in various kinds of ministries.

Can you name the women-- and the location of their churches-- who were pastoring local congregations in Ellen White's day? Also give the source of your information.

[John317]

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John317: Most Bible scholars believe she was a deaconess. For instance, the Amplified Bible reads, "a deaconness of the church at Cenchreae." The vast majority of the translations show her to have been a "helper [Gk. prostatis, strong's #4368] of many," including Paul. This word only occurs here and is defined as "patroness; protectress."

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teresaq(sda): if you could show where you find that instance of 4368 in regards to phebe...

Sure. It's in Romans 16: 2. It's where Paul says, "[Phoebe] has been a great help to many people, including me" (NIV).

The Voice New Testament (Thomas Nelson, 2008) has, "[Phoebe] has spent her energy and resources helping others, and I am blessed to have her as my benefactor as well."

NASB: "[Phoebe] herself has also been a helper of many, and of myself as well."

[teresaq]

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aldona: So do we, as a denomination, really believe what we preach about the "priesthood of all believers"?

....Either we have the priesthood of all believers, or we do not.

Either all believers (male and female) are priests and kings, or all believers are not.

First, we have to determine whether your inclusion of females in the description, "Priests and kings" is warranted.

A search of John's writings shows that he knew the difference between kings and queens. Therefore, his mention of "priests and kings" in Revelation cannot be assumed to be referring to both sexes.

[teresaq]

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John317: Most Bible scholars believe she was a deaconess. For instance, the Amplified Bible reads, "a deaconness of the church at Cenchreae." The vast majority of the translations show her to have been a "helper [Gk. prostatis, strong's #4368] of many," including Paul. This word only occurs here and is defined as "patroness; protectress."

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teresaq(sda): if you could show where you find that instance of 4368 in regards to phebe...

Sure. It's in Romans 16: 2. It's where Paul says, "[Phoebe] has been a great help to many people, including me" (NIV).

oh, youre just referring to two different cases. what she is, versus what she has done.

Rom 16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:

Rom 16:2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.

like:

Rom 16:3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:

1Co 16:15 I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)

1Co 16:16 That ye submit yourselves unto such, and to every one that helpeth with us, and laboureth.

[Gregory Matthews]

It has been asked if any of these women became local pastors of local congregations. No. In the early days of our denomination the ordained milnisters were not local pastors. They like James White evangelized, raised up congregations and left them in the care of local leaders who were not what we would call ordained ministers. These ordained ministgers also conducted the work of the developing denomination.

[Gregory Matthews]

John 317 said:

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What did James White say? Did he conclude that women should be ordained as pastors and elders of the local SDA churches? More importantly, did James White ever ordain and license a woman to be the pastor of a local congregation?

Please see my post above this one. As I said there, the discussion printed in the REVIEW was vigorous. James White participated in that dicussion. His view is available in the public record of the REVIEW.

So is that of U. Smith and others.

[John317]

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teresaq(sda): Rom 16:27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

Yes, this is the last verse of the book of Romans.

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teresaq(sda): Written to the Romans from Corinthus, and sent by Phebe servant of the church at Cenchrea.

This line was not part of the original manuscript but was added many years later by editors. It occurs in the Geneva Bible, first edition published 1560. From there it made its way into the King James Version of 1611.

Many Bible scholars believe that the letter was carried to the Roman believers by Phoebe, "servant, [ or deaconness], of the church at Cenchrea."

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teresaq(sda): Eph 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Eph 6:21 But that ye also may know my affairs, and how I do, Tychicus, a beloved brother and faithful minister in the Lord, shall make known to you all things:

1Th 3:2 And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith:

1Ti 4:6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

What is your conclusion on the basis of the above verses?

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teresaq(sda): G1249 diakonos compare G1377); an attendant, that is, (generally) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties); specifically a Christian teacher and pastor (technically a deacon or deaconess): - deacon, minister, servant.

The above information shows that the word diakonos does not mean the same thing in every verse in which it occurs. It has a very broad meaning, including "one who renders service, an attendant, servant, one who executes a commission, a deputy, a commissioned minister or preacher of the gospel, a servitor, a devoted follower, a deacon, a deaconess. The latter's official duty was to superintend the alms of the Church, with other kindred services." See any standard Greek-English lexicon.

[John317]

Many thanks for your helpful replies, Gregory.

[teresaq]

you left this one out:

Rom 16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:

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teresaq(sda): Eph 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Eph 6:21 But that ye also may know my affairs, and how I do, Tychicus, a beloved brother and faithful minister in the Lord, shall make known to you all things:

1Th 3:2 And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith:

1Ti 4:6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

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teresaq(sda): G1249 diakonos compare G1377); an attendant, that is, (generally) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties); specifically a Christian teacher and pastor (technically a deacon or deaconess): - deacon, minister, servant.

The above information shows that the word diakonos does not mean the same thing in every verse in which it occurs.

What is your conclusion on the basis of the above verses?

i would think people would check it out and draw their own conclusions as opposed to having someone tell them what to think. would you agree that would be the best approach? :)

[John317]

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Tom Wetmore:I recall from previous discussions on this topic that you claimed to have not made up your mind and that you were open-minded about the topic.

I have seen no evidence of that in anything you have ever posted on the topic.

Yes, I am open to Bible evidence on the subject. I could be persuaded to become firmly convinced in regard to one side or another, but it must be based strictly on Bible evidence, and not on anything else. I'm not persauded by socio-pyschological arguments. I believe the issue can only be decided theologically, not historically. I lean towards the belief that women should not be pastors and elders of local congregations, but I'm constantly open to evidence that I'm wrong on this. I'd like to see your best, most solid biblical evidence and the arguments you derive from it.

[John317]

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John317: Most Bible scholars believe she was a deaconess. For instance, the Amplified Bible reads, "a deaconness of the church at Cenchreae." The vast majority of the translations show her to have been a "helper [Gk. prostatis, strong's #4368] of many," including Paul. This word only occurs here and is defined as "patroness; protectress."

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teresaq(sda): if you could show where you find that instance of 4368 in regards to phebe...

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JOHN3:17: Sure. It's in Romans 16: 2. It's where Paul says, "[Phoebe] has been a great help to many people, including me" (NIV).

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teresaq(sda):oh, youre just referring to two different cases. what she is, versus what she has done.

Rom 16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:

Rom 16:2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.

What do you believe Phoebe was-- a deaconess or the pastor? If you believe she was the pastor of the church at Cenchreae, what is your best evidence for this understanding?

[John317]

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teresaq(sda): you left this one out:

Rom 16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:

Not sure what you mean by "left this out" when I've discussed that verse many times. In your post #347711 on this same thread, you will see that you yourself quoted me saying:

"Notice that the New King James Version and the NIV refer to her as a 'servant [Gk.diakonos, Strong's #1249] of the church in Cenchrea' (Rom. 16: 1)."

Before you came on the Adventist Forum, I posted and discussed every occurrence of the word diakonos in the New Testament, as well as all the other words dealing with the role of women in the NT. I've also discussed Romans 16: 1 earlier on this very thread.

Have you checked out Acts 6: 2, 4?

v. 2 diakoneo (Strong's #1247)= "wait on tables"

v. 4 diakonia (Strongs #1248)= "ministry"

Look carefully at all occurrences of the word diakonos (Strong's #1249) in the NT. See especially how it is translated in Romans 16: 1; Phil. 1: 1; 1 Tim. 3: 8, 12.

[John317]

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teresaq(sda): G1249 diakonos compare G1377); an attendant, that is, (generally) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties); specifically a Christian teacher and pastor (technically a deacon or deaconess): - deacon, minister, servant.

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JOHN3:17: The above information shows that the word diakonos does not mean the same thing in every verse in which it occurs.

What is your conclusion on the basis of the above verses?

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teresaq(sda): i would think people would check it out and draw their own conclusions as opposed to having someone tell them what to think. would you agree that would be the best approach?

Yes, I have checked this material and information out thoroughly many times before. I have drawn my conclusions. My conclusion is that in Romans 16: 1, the word diakonos should be translated "deaconess" or "ministring servant."

I've offered evidence and reasoning in my previous posts regarding Romans 16: 1, 2. I could simply give you my opinion and conclusions, but I think it's best to show one's evidence and reasoning for one's belief. I didn't know that all you wanted was for me to tell you my opinion or conclusion. Most people are interested to see why others have drawn their conclusions as they have.

"Ministry" is a very broad word, stemming from the Greek words diakonia, diakonos, and diakoneo, and these words often convey the idea of "service" and "ministry" in the broadest sense. For instance, Marth was distracted because of her "service" or "ministry" (diakonia), and the "service" being described is prapartion of a meal (Luke 10: 40).

First Peter 4: 10 says that all spiritual gifts are to be used to "minister" (diakoneo) to one another in the church. And Paul says, "There are different kinds of service (diakonia), but the same Lord" (1 Cor. 12: 5). So in this broad sense, anything any Christian does to help the work of the church is a ministry.

[John317]

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Tom Wetmore: And Ellen White urged that there be 20X more women than there were then involved in preaching the gospel truth:

Women can be the instruments of righteousness, rendering holy service. It was Mary that first preached a risen Jesus. In fulfillment of the divine plan, the Son of man came to seek and to save that which was lost. If this work was not beneath the dignity of the world's Redeemer, the Creator of worlds, should it be considered too humiliating for sinful mortals? If Christ taught, and if he wrestled in earnest prayer to his Father in behalf of those he came to save, we should engage in the same work. Those who engage with the Son of God in his work, be they ever so aspiring, can have no greater, no holier work than this. If there were twenty women where now there is one, who would make this holy mission their cherished work, we should see many more converted to the truth. The refining, softening influence of Christian women is needed in the great work of preaching the truth. The Lord of the vineyard is saying to many women who are now doing nothing, "Why stand ye here all the day idle?" Zealous and continued diligence in our sisters toiling for the spread of the truth would be wholly successful, and would astonish us with its results. Through patience and perseverance, the work must be accomplished. In this faithful work is manifested the real devotion to God. He calls for deeds, and not words only. {RH, January 2, 1879 par. 1, Emphasis added}

Doug would seem to be suggesting that EGW and the early leaders of the Adventist Church were wrong to permit any women in ministry?

I'm positive that pastor Doug Batchelor was not saying Ellen White was wrong, certainly not in what she wrote above.

As I've pointed out many times before, the Bible encourages women to work in various gospel ministries, including evangelism. I think it's possible you are misunderstanding what Doug Batchelor is saying.

Notice Ellen White's example of Mary preaching a risen Jesus. Did Mary need to be the pastor or elder of a local congregation in order to do that? The clear answer is, no. Ellen White preached thousands of sermons. Did she need to be the pastor or elder of a local congregation to preach those sermons? No, of course not.

[John317]

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Gregory Matthews: As I said there, the discussion printed in the REVIEW was vigorous. James White participated in that dicussion. His view is available in the public record of the REVIEW.

So is that of U. Smith and others.

Excellent. I'll read it. They should have it at the Heritage Room in Loma Linda.

Meantime, could you please give a brief summary of what you understand was said there by James White?

[Nan]

I have followed most of this discussion, and it has basicly remained civil.

I wonder if anyone's previously held opinion has changed by said discussion.

[John317]

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Tom Wetmore:

Regarding Phoebe, consider all the evidence.

I agree that we need to consider ALL the evidence concerning Phoebe, as well as all the other texts related to the organization of the NT church.

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Tom Wetmore: There is a mountain of tradition that colors the translations.

Do I sense unhappiness on your part with the way the Bible has been translated, particularly in verses dealing with women's role in the church? Do you suspect some kind of conspiracy on the part of all (or perhaps most) of the translators and Greek scholars?

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Tom Wetmore: Within the NT, it is only in this one instance with regard to a woman that diakonos is translated as "servant" or "helper".

Why? Can you tell why the word diakonos [diakonon] is different here in Romans 16: 1 as compared to other occurrences?

The same word is translated as "servant" in Matt. 23: 11; Mark 9: 35; John 12: 26; Romans 16: 1 (KJV).

Notice that many translations translate the same word [diakonos] as "deacon" or "deacons" in Romans 16: 1; Phil. 1: 1; 1 Tim. 3: 8, 12.

Deacons are church helpers, which is the reason that some translators choose to translate it as "helper."

Romans 16: 1, The Holy Bible, English Version for the Deaf, has "special helper;" The New Century Version, The New Life Version, and Edgar J. Goodspeed's An American Translation all render diakonos as "helper." In Phil. 1: 1, Goodspeed translated the same word as "assistants."

[Gregory Matthews]

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Gregory Matthews: As I said there, the discussion printed in the REVIEW was vigorous. James White participated in that dicussion. His view is available in the public record of the REVIEW.

So is that of U. Smith and others.

Excellent. I'll read it. They should have it at the Heritage Room in Loma Linda.

Meantime, could you please give a brief summary of what you understand was said there by James White?

My study of the ancient records was many years ago. To summ up as I recall it, everybody was pretty much as people are today in regard to what the Bible taught. That is how it was argued. I.E. The same Biblical arguements that are being made today.

[John317]

Thank you for that. I'm always very interested in James White's views on anything, but also Uriah Smith, although far more so with White.

[teresaq]

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teresaq(sda): G1249 diakonos compare G1377); an attendant, that is, (generally) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties); specifically a Christian teacher and pastor (technically a deacon or deaconess): - deacon, minister, servant.

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JOHN3:17: The above information shows that the word diakonos does not mean the same thing in every verse in which it occurs.

What is your conclusion on the basis of the above verses?

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teresaq(sda): i would think people would check it out and draw their own conclusions as opposed to having someone tell them what to think. would you agree that would be the best approach?

Yes, I have checked this material and information out thoroughly many times before. I have drawn my conclusions. My conclusion is that in Romans 16: 1, the word diakonos should be translated "deaconess" or "ministring servant."

oh, ok. so paul was a "deaconess" or "ministring servant."

Eph 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Col 1:23 .. whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

i believe the general consensus disagrees with your conclusions, but what would they know?

Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

while Jesus made Himself a servant to man, i for one dont want to put Him in such a lowly state as "deaconess" or "ministring servant.".

otherwise it pretty much looks like one is just going on "bias" as to how they choose to label phebe.

[teresaq]

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Tom Wetmore: Within the NT, it is only in this one instance with regard to a woman that diakonos is translated as "servant" or "helper".

Why? Can you tell why the word diakonos [diakonon] is different here in Romans 16: 1 as compared to other occurrences?

The same word is translated as "servant" in Matt. 23: 11; Mark 9: 35; John 12: 26; Romans 16: 1 (KJV).

Notice that many translations translate the same word [diakonos] as "deacon" or "deacons" in Romans 16: 1; Phil. 1: 1; 1 Tim. 3: 8, 12.

Deacons are church helpers, which is the reason that some translators choose to translate it as "helper."

Romans 16: 1, The Holy Bible, English Version for the Deaf, has "special helper;" The New Century Version, The New Life Version, and Edgar J. Goodspeed's An American Translation all render diakonos as "helper." In Phil. 1: 1, Goodspeed translated the same word as "assistants."

oh, ok. so paul was a "deaconess" or "ministring servant."

Eph 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Col 1:23 .. whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

i believe the general consensus disagrees with your conclusions, but what would they know?

Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

while Jesus made Himself a servant to man, i for one dont want to put Him in such a lowly state as "deaconess" or "ministring servant.".

otherwise it pretty much looks like one is just going on "bias" as to how they choose to label phebe.

[Tom Wetmore]

Do I sense unhappiness on your part with the way the Bible has been translated, particularly in verses dealing with women's role in the church? Do you suspect some kind of conspiracy on the part of all (or perhaps most) of the translators and Greek scholars?

Not unhappiness, just disappointment that translators tend to rely more heavily on centuries of church tradition, a conservative characteristic, rather than ancient Greek language and cultural scholarship to determine real world meaning in the context of the 1st Century. Much is lost in translation. I think most English translations endeavor to meet a 6th grade reading level and lose much of the fullness of the meaning and/or nuances of the original Greek. And yes, I think in a number of areas of Scripture the "dummying down" and sensitivities to tradition or theological bias lead to significant translation errors, and not just in the area of the role of women. Think what confusion has resulted from the added comma in Luke 23:43. Or the loss of the graphic imagery of our righteousness as merely dirty rags.

And yes, translating prostatis as "helper" is a very poor translation, no matter how you look at it. It is as accurate as saying Tiger Woods looked at another woman. True, but far from the complete or correct story.

There's not a conspiracy. It is just the lack of courage to stick one's neck out and differ from the rest of the herd - a lack of the courage of ones convictions.

Originally Posted By: John317

It's widely known that women were doing evangelism and in various leadership roles in the conferences, and working alongside their husbands. That's not in dispute. The Bible certainly encourages women to be in various kinds of ministries.

Can you name the women-- and the location of their churches-- who were pastoring local congregations in Ellen White's day? Also give the source of your information.

First of all, Gregory makes a valid point that local pastors as we know them now were not common or typical in 19th Century Adventism. But trying to differentiate preacher/evangelists from pastors is a distinction without a real difference.

What is clear historically is that in role and function, the women were doing the same things as the men in the early Adventist Church. Women were evangelists the same as men. Women were in leadership roles both locally and at the conference level. Women were baptizing and officiating in marriages. Women were organizing churches. Women were as much pastors as were the men.

For a comprehensive look at the issues and the facts - http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/wo/index.htm

If you are willing to consider all the evidence, read it all.

[Tom Wetmore]

It bears repeating...

...And not all versions translate diakonos in regard to Phoebe as "servant" or "helper". Darby translates it as "minister" and the Young literal translation translates verses one and two as follows:

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And I commend you to Phebe our sister -- being a ministrant of the assembly that [is] in Cenchrea -- that ye may receive her in the Lord, as doth become saints, and may assist her in whatever matter she may have need of you -- for she also became a leader of many, and of myself.

The second Greek term prostatis means much more than the words you have selectively chosen. Just the complete Strong's and Thayer's definition is:

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1) a woman set over others

2) a female guardian, protectress, patroness, caring for the affairs of others and aiding them with her resources

The Greek lexicon also notes that it is a specific derivative of the verb proistemi which means:

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1) to set or place before

a) to set over

to be over, to superintend, preside over

c) to be a protector or guardian

1) to give aid

d) to care for, give attention to

1) profess honest occupations

And Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words says:

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It is a word of dignity, evidently chosen instead of others which might have been used (see, e.g., under HELPER), and indicates the high esteem with which she was regarded, as one who had been a protectress of many. Prostates was the title of a citizen in Athens, who had the responsibility of seeing to the welfare of resident aliens who were without civic rights. Among the Jews it signified a wealthy patron of the community.

If Paul had actually meant merely that Phoebe was just a helper, he would have used boethos which clearly and only means "helper". Or he could have chosen the term signifying a worker of equal standing who helps - sunergos. But he chose instead a term signifying someone of higher standing, a woman that is in a position over others, a supervisor, a female overseer - a female bishop.

If Phoebe was merely a servant, why did Paul instruct the the Roman believers to help her in whatever she asked of them? To confirm the reason they should do as she said, Paul emphasized the point by caller her a prostatis. And Paul acknowledged that he regarded her as his superior.

Tom

[John317]

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Tom Wetmore:

The second Greek term prostatis means much more than the words you have selectively chosen. Just the complete Strong's and Thayer's definition is:

1) a woman set over others

Tom, can you give me a single example in the NT or the LXX or in the papyri or non-literary sources where prostatis refers to a "woman set over others"?

Also, please show the literal meaning of prostatis.

In other words, what does "pro" mean, and what does "statis" signify? If you can tell this, you will know the meaning of the word as it is used in Romans 16: 2.

Since you appear to admire and agree with Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon, do you also agree with it that the word diakonos should be translated as "deaconess" in Romans 16: 1. (See page 138, #1249, No. 2.)

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Tom Wetmore (quoting from lexicon, defining prostatis): 2) a female guardian, protectress, patroness, caring for the affairs of others and aiding them with her resources

This word (Strong's #4368) occurs only once in the NT, in Romans 16: 2.

Could you please tell me whether Thayer's Lexicon says prostatis in Ro. 16: 2 signifies definition #1 or #2?

That is, does Thayer's Lexicon define prostatis as "a woman set over others" or does it define prostatis as "female guardian, patroness," etc.?

What do you think?

Can you find a single translation of Romans 16: 2 in which the word

is translated "a woman set over others"?

No, you can't. In over 65 translations of Rom. 16: 2, not a single one translates it as "a woman set over others." And why not?

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Tom Wetmore: The Greek lexicon also notes that it is a specific derivative of the verb proistemi which means:

1) to set or place before

Strong's # 4291 occurs only 8 times in all the New Testament.

The lexicon gives no examples in the NT of this meaning.

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Tom Wetmore: a) to set over

No examples in NT where this is used.

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Tom Wetmore: to be over, to superintend, preside over

Used in 1 Tim. 5: 15; 1 Thess. 5: 12; 1 Tim. 3: 4, 5, 12

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Tom Wetmore: c) to be a protector or guardian

Romans 12: 8.

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Tom Wetmore: 1) to give aid

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Tom Wetmore: d) to care for, give attention to

Titus 3: 8, 14-- "to maintain"

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Tom Wetmore: 1) profess honest occupations

Titus 3: 8, 14 "profess honest occupations"

Please notice that the Lexicon (on Strong's #4291) does not give any of these meanings to the word used in Romans 16: 2, although it lists the texts which use this masculine verb, proisthmi, and therefore all of your definitions are irrelevant for understanding the meaning of the feminine noun, prostatis, as it occurs in Romans 16: 2.

The definitions that are closest to prostatis are 2b and 2c.

Notice that definition 2a, "to be over, to superintend, preside over," applies to 1 Tim. 5: 17 ("direct"); 1 Thess. 5: 12("who are over"); and 1 Tim. 3: 4("to manage"). No lexicon or Greek dictionary indicates that this word applies to Romans 16: 2.

The eight occurrences of this word, proisteemi, are as follows:

Romans 12: 8-- he that ruleth, with diligencce

1 Thess. 5: 12-- and are over you in the Lord

1 Tim. 3: 4-- One that ruleth well his own house

1 Tim. 3: 5-- if a man know not how to rule his

1 Tim. 3: 12-- ruling their children and their own

1 Tim. 5: 17-- Let the elders that rule well be

Titus 3: 8-- be careful to maintain good works

Titus 3: 14-- learn to maintain good works

Conclusion: the word proisteemi does not apply to Romans 16: 2. If it did, we would see it listed with the above verses.

Quote:

Tom Wetmore: And Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words says:

It is a word of dignity, evidently chosen instead of others which might have been used (see, e.g., under HELPER), and indicates the high esteem with which she was regarded, as one who had been a protectress of many. Prostates was the title of a citizen in Athens, who had the responsibility of seeing to the welfare of resident aliens who were without civic rights. Among the Jews it signified a wealthy patron of the community.

Sure, Vine's good.

Quote:

Tom Wetmore: If Paul had actually meant merely that Phoebe was just a helper, he would have used boethos which clearly and only means "helper".

boeethos, a noun, only occurs one time in the whole NT, in Heb. 13: 6, "The Lord is my helper..."

Quote:

Tom Wetmore: Or he could have chosen the term signifying a worker of equal standing who helps - sunergos.

sunergos is used to total of 13 times in the NT, as follows:

1) Romans 16: 3-- Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus

2) Rom. 16: 9-- Salute Urbane, our helper in Christ

3) Rom. 16: 21-- Timotheus my workfellow, and

4) 1 Cor. 3: 9-- For we are labourers together with God

5) 2 Cor. 1: 24-- but are helpers of your joy

6) 2 Cor. 8: 23-- my partner and fellowhelper concerning you

7) Phil. 2: 25-- my brother, and companion in labor

8) Phil. 4: 3-- (with) other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life

9) Col. 4: 11-- These only (are my) fellowworkers unto

10) 1Thess. 3: 2-- our fellowlabourer in the gospel

11) Philem 1-- our dearly beloved, and fellowlabourer

12) Philem 24-- Demas, Lucas, and my fellowlabourers

13) 3 John 8-- might be fellowhelpers to the truth

Here's why Paul chose the word prostatis and not the other words:

There seems to be a play on words between the word prostatis and the previous verb, paristemi, in 16: 2. Paul says to help (paristemi) Phoebe because she has been a help (prostatis) to many, including to Paul himself. It fits the context better to understand Paul as saying "help Phoebe because she has been such a help to others and to me."

Quote:

Tom Wetmore: But he chose instead a term signifying someone of higher standing, a woman that is in a position over others, a supervisor, a female overseer - a female bishop.

The proof that this theory is nonsense, Tom, is that Paul wrote to the church of Corinth-- only a few miles from Cenchrea, where you claim this woman was a "female bishop" and "overseer,"-- that "as in all the congregations of the saints, let your women keep silent in the churches because they are not permitted to speak, but they are to be submissive, as the law also says." How could Paul have written this with a straight face while the main leader of the church was a woman, who had authority over Paul himself, to say nothing of having authority over all the other pastors and elders?

Was this indeed the same Paul who would later go on to write, "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence, because Adam was formed first, then Eve"? 1 Tim. 2: 12-13

Quote:

Tom Wetmore: If Phoebe was merely a servant, why did Paul instruct the the Roman believers to help her in whatever she asked of them? To confirm the reason they should do as she said, Paul emphasized the point by caller her a prostatis. And Paul acknowledged that he regarded her as his superior.

If Phoebe was a bishop and overseer, why would her inferior, Paul, be instructing people to do as she said? Doesn't the superior tell people to do what an inferior says? Yet here you say the inferior is telling people to do what his superior says.

That Phoebe is being called a leader here is improbable for three reasons:

(1) It is highly improbable that Paul would say that Phoebe held a position of authority over him. He says that about no one except Christ, not even the Jerusalem apostles (Gal. 1: 6-7, 11), so confident is he of his high authority as an apostle (cf. 1 Cor. 14: 37-38; Gal. 1: 8-9; 2 Thess. 3: 14).

(2) There seems to be a play on words between the word prostatis and the previous verb, paristemi, in 16: 2. Paul says to help (paristemi) Phoebe because she has been a help (prostatis) to many, including to Paul himself. It fits the context better to understand Paul as saying "help Phoebe because she has been such a help to others and to me."

(3)Although the related masculine noun prostates can mean "leader," the actual feminine noun (prostatis)does not take the meaning "leader" but is defined as "protectress, patroness, helper." Gingrich's Lexicon of the New Testament reads, "prostatis, protectress, patroness, helper Ro 16: 2." Sakae Kubo's Reader's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament reads the same. The Greek-English Lexicon in Westcott & Hort's Greek NT reads, "prostatis, a female guardian; a protector, Rom 16: 2."