Insights from other sources than the Bible

[cardw]

Here is a quote that really expresses the application of compassion in a way that transcends much of the trite proof texting done in the name of "wisdom."

Quote:

The function of compassion in the Work is not to reduce

hurt; its function is to lead to the truth. Much of the time,the truth is

painful or scary. Compassion makes it possible to tolerate that hurt and

fear. It helps us persist in our search for truth. Truth will ultimately

dissolve the hurt, but this is a by-product and not the major purpose of

compassion.

In fact, it is only when compassion is present that people allow themselves

to see the truth. Where there is no compassion, there is no trust. If

someone is compassionate toward you, you trust him enough to allow yourself

to be vulnerable, to see the truth rather than reject it. The compassion

doesn't alleviate the pain, it makes the pain meaningful, makes it part of

the truth, makes it tolerable.

There has been so many claims that Christianity is superior to all other ways and yet there are traditions that express insights into the human condition that artfully reveal these practical understandings in ways we rarely see in Christian writing.

People don't write these things from a vacuum. They come from the direct experience of the healing work of compassion.

If the Bible was filled with this type of insight I think it would have more credibility. Instead it is a story of god's violence toward humanity followed up with the insights of Jesus, violence toward Jesus, and the final violence toward humanity.

How is that better?

[phkrause]

I like that quote, who exactly wrote or said that?

pk

[LifeHiscost]

Here is a quote that really expresses the application of compassion in a way that transcends much of the trite proof texting done in the name of "wisdom."

Most, if not all, of what men think or say about the Word, comes from what's inside man. God is Light and if we have chosen darkness to be our guide, there is no hope until we draw the conclusion that to walk in darkness is foolish.

To see reasonable men act with compassion and not give God the credit is to make gods of the men we admire, and while the beginning of decency may appear to be Light, unless and until those same compassionate individuals admit to the true Source of their compassion, they are doomed to the same eternal darkness those who follow them are headed.

"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works." 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 NKJV

That , of course, does not mean that all who are ignorant of Jesus and perform admirably out of the compassion of their heart, fit the above description. It merely makes clear that those who accept adoration from others, as well as those who give that adoration for their apparent goodness, without acknowledging it derives from other than their own inner goodness, will eventually fall into the same pit.

An example of those who serve Jesus, without knowing or knowingly becoming acquainted with Him before pursuing deeds of righteousness, were pointed out by Jesus long before we of this perverse generation acknowledged the righteousness of some that weren't knowingly disciples of Christ.

"“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’

“Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’

“And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!’"Matt 25:34-40 NLT

This reveals the obvious truth that not all righteous acts down here are recognized by the participants as acts done for the glory of God. However the following Word seems clear that it is wise to give credit where credit is due.

" “Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons. For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’

“Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’

“And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’

“And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.”"Matt 25:41-46 NLT

I hold a premise that those who are of the first school of behavior, will say to Jesus upon their initial face to face encounter with Him, "I have been waiting so long to meet You!!".

Regards!

[cardw]

Most, if not all, of what men think or say about the Word, comes from what's inside man. God is Light and if we have chosen darkness to be our guide, there is no hope until we draw the conclusion that to walk in darkness is foolish.

Show me what part of that quote is darkness.

[cardw]

To see reasonable men act with compassion and not give God the credit is to make gods of the men we admire, and while the beginning of decency may appear to be Light, unless and until those same compassionate individuals admit to the true Source of their compassion, they are doomed to the same eternal darkness those who follow them are headed.

It is only Christians that make this comparison. Many of the non believers I associate with could care less if they got "credit" because that's not what they are looking for.

It is simply compassion and nothing else. No one is trying to make it to heaven.

[cardw]

I like that quote, who exactly wrote or said that?

pk

It is by A. Hameed Ali a physicist turned spiritual teacher.

[phkrause]

Very insightful....it is the essence of what Christ taught, but is not practiced by way to many calling themselves followers of Christ....hence the bad name for religion.

I have no fault with that statement and have great admiration for those that practice it.

I agree with you CoAspen, you can see or should I say read that on this Forum how this is definitely not a practice of the so-called followers of Christ.

I did notice that this person that wrote this has become a spiritual leader, very interesting.

pk

[TWNolan]

If the Bible was filled with this type of insight I think it would have more credibility. Instead it is a story of god's violence toward humanity followed up with the insights of Jesus, violence toward Jesus, and the final violence toward humanity.

How is that better?

Who says it isn't filled with this insight?

OH, I know, those who do not have a true LOVING relationship with Jesus

[olger]

Quote from Rob Bell -

"This is part of the problem with continually insisting that one of the absolutes of the Christian faith must be a belief that “Scripture alone” is our guide. It sounds nice, but it is not true. In reaction to abuses by the church, a group of believers during a time called the Reformation claimed that we only need the authority of the Bible.

But the problem is that we got the Bible from the church voting on what the Bible even is… When people say that all we need is the Bible, it is simply not true. (067, 068)"

olger

[TWNolan]

you agree with that olger??

[olger]

[TWNolan]

good....

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

If the Bible was filled with this type of insight I think it would have more credibility. Instead it is a story of god's violence toward humanity followed up with the insights of Jesus, violence toward Jesus, and the final violence toward humanity.

How is that better?

Who says it isn't filled with this insight?

OH, I know, those who do not have a true LOVING relationship with Jesus

That's the problem. If this type of insight was in the Bible you would have posted it. The commentary is more often rather severe, filled with threats of death, gnashing of teeth, and other graphic visions of extreme suffering.

You have to pull the "nice" quotes out of context and add a lot of commentary to pull these insights out of the Bible.

[cardw]

OH, I know, those who do not have a true LOVING relationship with Jesus

I want to address this separately since it really demonstrates the shallowness of the dialog that comes out of many Christian views.

You basically use a couple of undefined memes like "true" "loving relationship" and fit the name of Jesus in there to give it some credibility to the choir.

It is also rather judgmental and pretends to know who I am and what I am about.

I think the dancing banana really expresses how serious I should take this response.

[abelisle]

When I want to gather comfort and insight from another source other than the Bible I read Thich Nhat Hanh:

Quoted from "Living Buddha, Living Christ" by Thich Nhat Hanh

To me, religious life is life. I do not see any reason to spend one's whole life tasting just one kind of fruit. We human beings can be nourished by the best values of many traditions. (p.2)

It is good that an orange is an orange and a mango is a mango. The colors, the smells, and the tastes are different, but looking deeply, we see that they are both authentic fruits. Looking more deeply, we can see the sunshine, the rain, the minerals, and the earth in both of them...If religions are authentic, they contain the same elements of stability, joy, peace, understanding, and love. The similarities as well as the differences are there. They differ only in terms of emphasis. Glucoise and acid are in all fruits, but their degrees differ. We cannot say that one is a real fruit and the other is not. (p194-195

If you haven't read any of his books , you should. Just as EGW helps to both illuminate and fill in the gaps, he too I feel has been inspired.

Alex

[olger]

So This Naht Hanh has the spirit of prophecy?

whew,

oG

[LifeHiscost]

It is only Christians that make this comparison. Many of the non believers I associate with could care less if they got "credit" because that's not what they are looking for.

It is simply compassion and nothing else. No one is trying to make it to heaven.

I'm happy to hear that you're aware that no non-Christians are making no effort to get to heaven, which I don't find difficult to believe of someone who doesn't believe there is such a place as heaven. My knowledge among Christians is not that complete. I believe that many Christians I'm aware of exercise compassion because they desire to please their Savior and they know this is accomplished by helping others find access to eternal life through Jesus.

Having come from a part of society removed from belief in a personal God Who cares and loves His creation, and now enjoying the reality of the Spirit of Christ that allows me compassion for those less fortunate than myself, I know definitely the difference between the compassion of the believer and the fearful protection of self interest exercised by the non-believer.

It is true that many non-believers exercise compassion for compassion's sake. However when the true believer has a choice of yielding to injustice to uphold the glory of His Master's name, it is totally different in the unbelievers life. When "push comes to shove", the unbeliever will push, while the believer will at the minimum acquiesce and at his/her best, return good for bad.

If you see a Christian doing differently, they are either not a fully matured Christian or they are only a professed Christian.

"Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their own craftiness”; and again, “The LORD knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile. ”Therefore let no one boast in men. For all things are yours: whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas, or the world or life or death, or things present or things to come—all are yours. And you are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s."1 Cor 3:18-23 NKJV

I recall, I believe in one of your posts, an alluding to "proof texts", which usually refers to a Word given that points out a Truth of Divine origin. The above is not meant to be a proof text, as I don't believe God is interested in proving Himself to anyone, except those who are genuinely interested in finding Him. If you are one of the latter, the Word above will not only mean something to you but you won't become infuriated at its' Wisdom nor make effort to ridicule its' content.

"So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it. "Isaiah 55:11 NKJV

"But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."1 Corinthians 2:14 NKJV

Regards!!

[TWNolan]

cardw,

I apologize for how i said but not what i said. from your comments you seem like a person who cannot see the treasure in front of him and has to look for cheap trinkets.

The Bible is FULL of wisdom, history, science and LOVE if one is willing to look for it. There is nothing that man can do to better oneself or others that the Bible hasn't already addressed.

You commented that if it had more of "these" insight, the Bible would have more creditability. How much creditability would a history book have if it was nothing but marshmallow, clouds and rainbows??

[cardw]

Quote:

It is true that many non-believers exercise compassion for compassion's sake. However when the true believer has a choice of yielding to injustice to uphold the glory of His Master's name, it is totally different in the unbelievers life. When "push comes to shove", the unbeliever will push, while the believer will at the minimum acquiesce and at his/her best, return good for bad.

This is not always a virtue. Holding people accountable prevents enabling. I find that Christians are often too passive and this can create more problems. When someone sets proper boundaries it is not about punishment or getting even. It is about communicating clearly and preventing those who are either ignorant or bullies to continue creating suffering without consequences.

Being passive in the face of injustice is not about being loving. It is actually rather self centered because it is more concerned about turning the other cheek to be seen as the proper Christian than it is about solving the problem. When we set boundaries with people, this is the more loving thing to do. Enabling is a form of dishonesty and doesn't help anyone in the long run.

[cardw]

cardw,

I apologize for how i said but not what i said. from your comments you seem like a person who cannot see the treasure in front of him and has to look for cheap trinkets.

[TWNolan]

i feel sorry for you cardw

[cardw]

i feel sorry for you cardw

Well, I really don't know what to tell you. All I'm saying is that there are many sources of wisdom on a whole multitude of topics including love, meaning, relationships, and motivation.

This idea that the Bible is the best and most complete source of this type of knowledge is not based on any evidence that I have read or heard.

And it's not from a lack of searching, contrary to your belief. I simply can't reconcile the whole book with itself and that's not from a lack of trying either.

I can understand how one might make the Bible more relevant by dismissing portions of it and providing a lot of commentary to take it out of a literal understanding, but that's not what many Christians are claiming.

I happen to believe that the bible has some harmful ideas on how to live one's life. There is far more fear motivation than love based motivation in that book. And I'm not talking about excusing people or not taking responsibility. I'm talking about a punitive theme that pervades much of the Bible.

[cardw]

We can take an example from 2 Kings 2:23-25 where Elijah, when taunted by some youths about his bald head pronounces a curse on them in the name of the Lord and god sends two she bears to maul all of them.

What lesson is learned by this type of cursing and violence?

It means that Elijah and by inference god, has a short fuse and is sensitive to the slightest insult.

It means that there is no chance of dialog to learn a lesson.

Elijah could have simply joined in on the joke and said something like, "You know what, your right, I'm bald and I probably look funny." This would show that his ego was not running the show and would present a far stronger position of self possession than cursing them in the name of god.

This is trinket wisdom expressing the attitude of, "That'll show 'em!" Ha Ha

[cardw]

Quote:

There is far more fear motivation than love based motivation in that book. And I'm not talking about excusing people or not taking responsibility. I'm talking about a punitive theme that pervades much of the Bible.

On the face of it, it would appear that way. As for me, I see a change when I look at how Christ taught others in the NT.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

When someone sets proper boundaries it is not about punishment or getting even. It is about communicating clearly and preventing those who are either ignorant or bullies to continue creating suffering without consequences.

Quote:

When we set boundaries with people, this is the more loving thing to do. Enabling is a form of dishonesty and doesn't help anyone in the long run.

Absolutely...but my question to you is, why do you not see that as occurring in the Bible?