Insights from other sources than the Bible

[cardw]

Quote:

Because god doesn't set boundaries with individuals. He tends to kill them. To me this is not boundary setting. It's punishment.

But again, are you not looking at God in the same way the ancient writers did, they same as the cultures around them? I see death as crossing the boundaries and not unexpectedly because from the beginning they are forewarned.

[LifeHiscost]

Being passive in the face of injustice is not about being loving. It is actually rather self centered because it is more concerned about turning the other cheek to be seen as the proper Christian than it is about solving the problem. When we set boundaries with people, this is the more loving thing to do. Enabling is a form of dishonesty and doesn't help anyone in the long run.

I now see why you do not believe in Jesus as wise or as Savior and Lord, for what you have described as "enabling is a form of dishonesty and doesn't help anyone in the long run", is exactly what Jesus did for the sinful. And I might add, reveals also a principle of the kingdom of darkness professed from the very beginning of the fall of man.

"And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?”

Then the man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate.”

And the LORD God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”

The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”" Gen 3:11-13 NKJV

Both the man and the woman blamed other than themselves for the problem they were in, as God had enabled them the freedom to take or not, of the forbidden fruit.

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

I happen to believe that the bible has some harmful ideas on how to live one's life. There is far more fear motivation than love based motivation in that book. And I'm not talking about excusing people or not taking responsibility. I'm talking about a punitive theme that pervades much of the Bible.

Again, I can see where you're coming from, cardw. And if one small principle were applied as a result of trust based partially upon the reality, there is a conflict between good and evil that allows one side to lie, cheat, steal, plunder, rape, kill, and destroy, while the other side must protect His own creation, with Sovereign discretion as Love determines best, if you please.

"But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him."

Hebrews 11:6 NKJV

"I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep." John 10:9-11 NKJV

Men fail to discern clearly mostly from an unwillingness to bow the knee before Almighty God, not because of our Father's unwillingness to reveal Himself.

Regards!!

[jasd]

>>I agree with you CoAspen, you can see or should I say read that on this Forum how this is definitely not a practice of the so-called followers of Christ.<<

Quote:

Quote: A. Hameed Ali

The function of compassion in the Work is not to reduce

hurt; its function is to lead to the truth.

Let’s not be too hard on ourselves (or others of this forum); works of compassion do not necessarily equate with clinical approaches to truth(s).

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

It is only Christians that make this comparison. Many of the non believers I associate with could care less if they got "credit" because that's not what they are looking for.

It is simply compassion and nothing else. No one is trying to make it to heaven.

I'm happy to hear that you're aware that no non-Christians are making no effort to get to heaven, which I don't find difficult to believe of someone who doesn't believe there is such a place as heaven. My knowledge among Christians is not that complete. I believe that many Christians I'm aware of exercise compassion because they desire to please their Savior and they know this is accomplished by helping others find access to eternal life through Jesus.

Having come from a part of society removed from belief in a personal God Who cares and loves His creation, and now enjoying the reality of the Spirit of Christ that allows me compassion for those less fortunate than myself, I know definitely the difference between the compassion of the believer and the fearful protection of self interest exercised by the non-believer.

The point is that if non-believers aren't trying to get to heaven, then there is even less self-interest within their motivation to be compassionate.

Now, not everyone who is a non-believer works from a fear base. I have far less fear as a non-believer than I ever did as a believer. When one is awakened to the fact that self-interest is really meaningless, a life of compassion becomes very attractive. I don't need the promise of eternal life or heaven to find great satisfaction in a life of compassion.

And it is because of this that I find the Christian view, that anything that isn't Christian is some subtle plot of Satan, extremely shallow, paranoid, and fear based.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

I happen to believe that the bible has some harmful ideas on how to live one's life. There is far more fear motivation than love based motivation in that book. And I'm not talking about excusing people or not taking responsibility. I'm talking about a punitive theme that pervades much of the Bible.

Again, I can see where you're coming from, cardw. And if one small principle were applied as a result of trust based partially upon the reality, there is a conflict between good and evil that allows one side to lie, cheat, steal, plunder, rape, kill, and destroy, while the other side must protect His own creation, with Sovereign discretion as Love determines best, if you please.

[cardw]

>>I agree with you CoAspen, you can see or should I say read that on this Forum how this is definitely not a practice of the so-called followers of Christ.<<

Quote:

Quote: A. Hameed Ali

The function of compassion in the Work is not to reduce

hurt; its function is to lead to the truth.

Let’s not be too hard on ourselves (or others of this forum); works of compassion do not necessarily equate with clinical approaches to truth(s).

I think you misunderstand the quote. Quoted out of context makes it look like the quote is talking about some universal Truth. This is not truth with a capital T. This is looking at ourselves honestly in terms of a rigorous moral inventory.

To heal one has to identify the disease. Unfortunately society under the influence of Christian morality tends to take a simplified good guy/bad guy approach often ignoring the fact that all of us hide from our dark natures. And it is shame and fear, not the destructive actions themselves, that is at the core of the disease.

[LifeHiscost]

And it is because of this that I find the Christian view, that anything that isn't Christian is some subtle plot of Satan, extremely shallow, paranoid, and fear based.

I'm not sure what Christians you hang around but often the thing we see in others, emanates from our own heart.

Regards!!

[LifeHiscost]

that all of us hide from our dark natures.

I would suppose if I knew "all of us" as you appear to believe you do, I might also come to the same conclusion.

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. "1 John 1:9 NKJV

Regards!!

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

that all of us hide from our dark natures.

I would suppose if I knew "all of us" as you appear to believe you do, I might also come to the same conclusion.

[abelisle]

I thought this thread was about "insights from other sources" = namely literary ones? or did this become "let me convince Rich how utterly lost he is"?

Aha! so that's what these insights are all about.

Let me ask this: if there were no Bible, how would people know how to be spiritual?

Alex

[LifeHiscost]

It seems, cardw, you have picked up a sympathizer in writing depredations against Almighty God. These comments seem to me to be insights from other sources than the Word, which evidently hasn't necessarily struck some others the same way, or at least since they are less than literary insights.

And I agree with abelisle, if your comments are not meant to be insights, then my comments in reference to your comments are totally and I apologize and will withhold any insights I hold in order to get .

Here's hoping your day is starting out to be a better day than mine.

Regards!!

"...but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God." Romans 2:28 NKJV

"So don’t make judgments about anyone ahead of time—before the Lord returns. For he will bring our darkest secrets to light and will reveal our private motives. Then God will give to each one whatever praise is due."

1 Corinthians 4:5 NLT

[LifeHiscost]

I find it incredible that anyone would entertain this idea. You really believe that an advanced being of intelligence would need his creation to bow before him.

"For it is written: “ As I live, says the LORD,Every knee shall bow to Me,And every tongue shall confess to God.”"Romans 14:11 NKJV

"...that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,"Philippians 2:10 NKJV

And I am assuming there are dignitaries on earth in whose presence you would be pleased to give deference, at least as much as a nod of the head. How much more so in the presence of Almighty God, Who holds the billions of galaxies in His control, as well as the hearts of all those who love and adore Him as their loving Father, both on this earth and in the heavenly home to come.

"“Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

And where I go you know, and the way you know.”

Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?”

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

“If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.” "

John 14:1-7 NKJV

Regards!!

[abelisle]

LifeHiscost,

I plead guilty to being a Rich sympathizer but not guilty to depredating God.

There is a huge difference between appreciating the logic that Rich has offered and from casting unkind aspersions on God. It seems that just the simple questioning of God's existence deserves heaping piles of criticism on Rich's head.

I also find it odd that critics use the Bible as their primary textual weapon against a person who questions both its veracity and credibility?

I am forced to once again ask the question I asked already: "without the Bible, how would people know how to lead spiritual lives? are there any other sources?"

Alex

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

I find it incredible that anyone would entertain this idea. You really believe that an advanced being of intelligence would need his creation to bow before him.

"For it is written: “ As I live, says the LORD,Every knee shall bow to Me,And every tongue shall confess to God.”"Romans 14:11 NKJV

"...that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,"Philippians 2:10 NKJV

And I am assuming there are dignitaries on earth in whose presence you would be pleased to give deference, at least as much as a nod of the head. How much more so in the presence of Almighty God, Who holds the billions of galaxies in His control, as well as the hearts of all those who love and adore Him as their loving Father, both on this earth and in the heavenly home to come.

I try to give equal respect to each person. There are people that I know who I respect very much, but I would never bow to them, let alone get on my knees. There is no person on the earth that deserves my worship and I certainly don't require it of other people. And it seems to me that only a person who has a problem with self value needs to be worshipped would require this from other intelligent beings.

This whole world view is a remnant of European royalty who were falsely empowered with the idea that their position was god ordained.

[phkrause]

Let me ask this: if there were no Bible, how would people know how to be spiritual?

Alex

Interesting question Alex, but not to derail this thread by cardw maybe you should start another one!

But to answer your question, from what I've heard and read they found people that have never read the Bible that actually were doing just that!

pk

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: abelisle

Let me ask this: if there were no Bible, how would people know how to be spiritual?

Alex

from what I've heard and read they found people that have never read the Bible that actually were doing just that!

pk

"And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd."John 10:16 NKJV

[LifeHiscost]

LifeHiscost,

I plead guilty to being a Rich sympathizer but not guilty to depredating God.

There is a huge difference between appreciating the logic that Rich has offered and from casting unkind aspersions on God. It seems that just the simple questioning of God's existence deserves heaping piles of criticism on Rich's head.

I also find it odd that critics use the Bible as their primary textual weapon against a person who questions both its veracity and credibility?

Alex

And I find it odd that one sees the Word as automatically a criticism as opposed to a revelation, which is what the Word was given to do.

As to using the Bible for explanation (or criticism) or revelation, just as one looks for proper authority for the explanation of particular words, from Webster's dictionary, so also would one find proper Authority from the Word inspired by the One revealed. The fact that one disdains the Authority from the source, makes it no less true.

And I might add, rather than the Word being used against anyone who would covet life everlasting, it would seem to me to be the best place to put one's trust for the upbuilding of the body of Christ.

"Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able."Luke 13:24 NASB

"“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber."John 10:2 NKJV

"I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture."John 10:9 NKJV

Regards!!

[LifeHiscost]

I will admit, abelisle, that I didn't view closely the thread title when first responding with input. I'll make effort from now on to be sure I don't bring the Word where it is not welcome. I honestly believe Jesus followed that course of action, though I haven't figured out yet how best to approach those who are unbelievers, who would respond favorably to His graciousness if given an opportunity they could recognize clearly.

Regards!

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: abelisle

Let me ask this: if there were no Bible, how would people know how to be spiritual?

Alex

Interesting question Alex, but not to derail this thread by cardw maybe you should start another one!

But to answer your question, from what I've heard and read they found people that have never read the Bible that actually were doing just that!

pk

I think this is still on topic. It is a different way to explore the same question.

If these people were finding meaning without the Bible, what method do you think they are using to find this meaning?

Maybe you might have a more specific example.

[cardw]

Quote:

When one is awakened to the fact that self-interest is really meaningless, a life of compassion becomes very attractive. I don't need the promise of eternal life or heaven to find great satisfaction in a life of compassion.

Again, my understanding of Christ teachings are exactly that! His parable about the the separation of the sheep and goats speaks directly to that. One group is being compassionate toward others with out thought for reward and the other is dong it directly for reward.

Not all of Christianity views the world around them in the manner you seem to think they do.

I hope that I have been clear that I don't lump all of Christianity into one camp. And I hope that I have expressed appreciation for the insights that Jesus does bring to the table philosophically. I do consider the ideas raised by Jesus the teacher or Rabbi to be major shifts in consciousness.

They just don't fit the god of the OT. They seem extremely out of place within the rest of the Bible.

And I agree that Christianity is one way to extract meaning out of one's life. I do observe that those who are the most successful at doing this with Christianity modify the orthodox understandings, or don't give them all that much attention.

[jasd]

Quote:

”The function of compassion in the Work is not to reduce

hurt; its function is to lead to the truth. Much of the time,the truth is

painful or scary. Compassion makes it possible to tolerate that hurt and

fear. It helps us persist in our search for truth. Truth will ultimately

dissolve the hurt, but this is a by-product and not the major purpose of

compassion.”

Quote:

Quote:pkrause

>>I agree with you CoAspen, you can see or should I say read that on this Forum how this is definitely not a practice of the so-called followers of Christ.<<

Quote:A. Hameed Ali

The function of compassion in the Work is not to reduce

hurt; its function is to lead to the truth.

Quote:jasd

Let’s not be too hard on ourselves (or others of this forum); works of compassion do not necessarily equate with clinical approaches to truth(s).

>>I think you misunderstand the quote. Quoted out of context makes it look like the quote is talking about some universal Truth. This is not truth with a capital T.<<

Thanks, for pointing that out – I thought I’d perceived the topic sentence of an introductory paragraph – summarizing the thesis of the opus. I stand chastised; however, be that as may,

I also stand by my post as constructed

>>This is looking at ourselves honestly in terms of a rigorous moral inventory.<<

Cogito ergo...

[LifeHiscost]

Thats part of our problem, trying to convince others of the errors or their way, not our reason for existence!! We are to be reflections of out relationship with God, The Holy Spirit does the work. Christianity has lost sight of that, in my opinion.

Reflecting is good. It doesn't replace the counsel___,

" I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables."

2 Timothy 4:1-4 NKJV

Regards!!

[LifeHiscost]

Sigh......re read my post...your reply has no connection!

In your mind. And do I detect a measure of that patronizing word, condescension.

Regards!!

[Woody]

perhaps you could explain the connection to us slower ones?