Has the damage from Desmond Ford subsided?

[John317]

Quote:

wayfinder:

Ellen White Influences the Trial (A.F. Ballanger's trial)

The trial began on May 21, 1905, during the General Conference session. Ballenger was permitted to present his views on the Sanctuary to the leading brethren of the SDA Church. Ballenger arrived at the trial ready to make a defense from the Bible for his teachings. In his own words he describes what happened next:

"Immediately I had begun reading scriptures in proof of my position that the term 'within the veil' of Heb. 6:19 referred to the holy of holies of the true sanctuary, the committee began to bombard me with quotations from the writings of E.G. White.

"I begged them to show me my error from the Word alone, as I could not offer the writings of Mrs. White to the general public as authority in support of any position. It was finally agreed to use the scriptures only in dealing with the matter. But notwithstanding this solemn agreement, the first man to reply, Eld. S.N. Haskell, commenced, and continued unrebuked, to quote the writings of Mrs. White against me." Ballenger, "The Bible in the Reformation", p. 2

I do not know if Ballanger is telling everything that occurred at the trial. Assuming that he did, I would say that Haskell was reading Ellen White quotes to show how important the doctrine of the Investigative Judgment is to Seventh-day day Adventist doctrines. However, if that is all that was said to Ballanger, it was clearly a misake. They should have presented the Bible evidence to him.

Quote:

wayfinder: One day before the trial was to end, Mrs. White sent a letter to those in attendance at the trial. In this letter, instead of asking the brethren to carefully evaluate Ballenger's theories against the Bible, she instead appeals to their fears:

I would say she was appealing to their knowledge of the importance of the truth.

Quote:

wayfinder (quoting Ellen White's letter): "In clear, plain language I am to say to those in attendance at this conference that Brother Ballenger has been allowing his mind to receive and believe specious error. He has been misinterpreting and misapplying the Scriptures upon which he has fastened his mind. He is building up theories that are not founded in truth. A warning is now to come to him and to the people, for God has not indited the message that he is bearing. This message, if accepted, would undermine the pillars of our faith." Ellen White, letter "A Warning Against False Theories," May 24, 1905, MR 760.

I agree with Ellen White's statement. Again, she is calling a spade by its right name. If his message was accepted, it would certainly undermine the pillars of our faith. No question. It shows the great importance of the IJ. I think all SDAs should study the issues and understand how important the Investigative Judgment is.

[wayfinder]

I do not agree with Ballanger's understanding of the sanctuary and that is not the point I am making. What I am showing is the manner in which this was handled by all concerned, including Ellen White. Either we rely on scripture or we don't, we compare scripture with scripture to verify and support what we have come to understand. I must be honest with myself in this process. I am responsible to God for myself and I am accountable to God for others, but what good am I to others if I lead them astray, that is why I must be sure of what I have come to understand and that it is trustworthy and true for all of us will have to give an accounting for our actions or inactions.

[John317]

Quote:

wayfinder: Mrs. White is clearly alarmed that this message could undermine the foundation of the entire movement.

Yes, as well she should have been. She wouldn't be doing her work if she hadn't been alarmed. An acceptance of Ballanger's theories would certainly have undermined the foundation of the entire movement.

Quote:

wayfinder: She adds:

"Those who try to bring in theories that would remove the pillars of our faith concerning the sanctuary or concerning the personality of God or of Christ, are working as blind men." Ibid

These warnings must have raised alarm among the brethren present. If this doctrine were to be accepted, it could undermine and destroy the very denomination that was paying their salaries.

Yes, her warnings certainly would have raised alarm among the brethren present, but not primarily because of financial reasons. I make no money from the doctrine, but it certainly raises an alarm with me to think of Ballanger's theories being accepted by the church. The brethren were primarily concerned with the doctrines, not with money. I don't think there's any evidence that money played a part in their decision. If you have strong evidence of that, please show it. Otherwise you are merely attacking their characters by assuming they were motivated by their pay. "Jehovah's Witnesses" say this kind of thing all the time when they attack SDAs and other churches.

Quote:

wayfinder: Mrs. White further warns that "many" would leave the church if these doctrines were accepted:

"If the theories that Brother Ballenger presents were received, they would lead many to depart from the faith. They would counterwork the truths upon which the people of God have stood for the past fifty years. I am bidden to say in the name of the Lord that Elder Ballenger is following a false light. The Lord has not given him the message that he is bearing regarding the sanctuary service." Ibid

If "many" were to leave the church, then the leaders' jobs, their influence, and their position would all be in jeopardy.

You're adding to what Ellen White said. She's emphasizing the importance of the teaching for "the faith." Her emphasis is not jobs and influence or position. In fact, she doesn't even mention these things.

I completely agree with Ellen White's statement concerning the effect of Ballanger's theories should they be accepted by the church. I believe her desciption of the influence of Ballanger's theories is absolutely true. We saw some of the effect of them during the 1980s as a result of Ford's theories, which are very similar to Ballanger's. In fact, the influences of those theories are still with us today, proving that Ellen White knew what she was talking about.

Quote:

wayfinder: Finally, Mrs. White claims the "Instructor" had spoken to Ballenger about the situation:

"Our Instructor spoke words to Brother Ballenger: 'You are bringing in confusion and perplexity by your interpretation of the Scriptures. You think that you have been given new light, but your light will become darkness to those who receive it.'"

Ibid

She is saying God spoke to Ballanger. Christ gave Ellen White words to speak to Ballanger. I believe this. (See 1 SM 32) Ellen White was a true prophet of God. After over 40 years of studying her closely, I have no doubt of it.

The words God gave her to speak have certainly been proven to be true. The "light" of Ballanger became darkness to those who received it. I personally know of several ministers who accepted Fords and Ballanger's theories, who are now ministers in churches that keep Sunday. One of these ministers is a personal friend of mine from my college days.

Quote:

wayfinder: Faced with these dire predictions, what could the brethren do other than rule against Ballenger? Even if Ballenger's arguments held some merit, how could they allow him to continue when it might lead to the destruction of their denomination? If Mrs. White was correct, Ballenger's teachings threatened to destroy everything they had spent their whole lives building up. Ballenger had to be stopped!

Yes, I agree. Ballanger's theories if accepted would have destroyed the SDA church, the same as the acceptance of John H. Kellogg's theories. Satan has attempted to destroy the SDA church in many different way, and these are just two of his attempts.

Quote:

wayfinder: SDA minister M.L. Andreasen, an eyewitness to the hearing, acknowledges Ellen White's leading role in the defrocking. He wrote that the decision to defrock Ballenger was based on...

"the Spirit of Prophecy and their [the ministers meeting with Ballenger] own convictions." Edwards & Land, p. 133

The convictions of the ministers included their convictions that the Bible teaches the Investigative Judgment. So the reasons for their defrocking Ballanger was the Spirit of prophecy and their belief that the Bible teaches the IJ. Ballanger was teaching things contrary to the church. No church pays people to preach against the church's doctrines. Members of the church don't want their tithe to go to people who are helping to destroy the very doctines they believe in and want to spread to the world.

Quote:

wayfinder: In the end, it was Mrs. White's testimony that turned the tide against Ballenger and ensured his dismissal.

I praise God for the Spirit of prophecy and the way God has guided our church through the gift of prophecy as manifested in the life and ministry of Ellen White. Without her the church would have flounded on the rocks many times, and it probably wouldn't even exist today.

[wayfinder]

John317, I understand your steadfastness, but you have not answered the original question posed by Ballanger. All the things that you have said would have happened to the SDA church may or may not have happened. The point is, not one text was offered in support of the Adventist "pilliar of truth". The only support offered was Ellen White's spirit's testimony and the vision of H. Edson. Am I to believe that if the Bible does not supply a relevent text, then we are to rely on Ellen White? This would mean that no one prior to her calling could possibly have had all the information they would need to know the truth. Or anyone in a foreign country who did not have access to her writtings. You were saying that Joseph Smith wrote additions to the Bible, and this is true, but are you not doing the same with EGW's writtings when she supplies only a "thus sayth the Lord" without supplying a relevant text?

[Dr. Rich]

Interesting! It has been said before, "one can't argue facts with one who builds their foundation on faith." "If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town." Things are not looking so good for egw and company!

[John317]

Quote:

wayfinder: ....you have not answered the original question posed by Ballanger.

Here's the beginning of an answer to Ballanger:

In terms of the SDA understanding of Heb. 6: 19, 10, see The Handbook of Seventh-day Adventist Theology, pp. 416, 417. It's in Vol. 12 of the SDA Bible Commentary.

The phrase "the inner shrine behind the curtain" signifies "drawing near to God." It is not designating a particular area of the sanctuary but refers to direct access to God wherever He is. Compare Heb. 6: 19 with 7: 19. Also see the Greek of the LXX at Lev. 16: 2; Numbers 3: 26; Ex. 26: 31, 33, 37.

This issue has been discussed many times on this Forum.

There are also a great many books written on the topic, which answer Ballanger's/Ford's/Ratzslaff's questions.

Here are a few of such books:

The five volumes of the Daniel & Revelation Committee Series, Frank B. Holbrook, Editor

The Silencing of Satan, Bradley R. Williams

1844 Made Simple, Clifford Goldstein

Graffiti in the Holy of Holies, Clifford Goldstein

Investigating the Judgment, John T. Anderson

"The Sanctuary," Angel Manuel Rodriguez, The Handbook of Seventh-day Adventist Theology Vol. 12 of the SDA Bible Commentary, pp. 375-417.

I assure you that if you study the above books, you will find that there is plenty of convincing evidence that the Bible supports the SDA doctrine of the Investigative Judgment.

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: It has been said before, "one can't argue facts with one who builds their foundation on faith."

Faith in God is not opposed to facts, but it is very often opposed to theories and false interpretations of Scripture.

Read a few of the books listed in the previous post dealing directly with the questions of Ballanger and Ford about the Investigative Judgement.

[wayfinder]

John317, you do not seem to understand me. First, I do not agree with Ballanger's understanding. Second, no text was given to Ballanger when he requested one, he was given only rhetoric and accusations, this was done by Ellen White primarally. Your red letters are acknowledged and noted. This may be the "today" "pillar of truth", but it certainly wasn't understood that way in Ellen Whites time.

He is a quote from the book "The Midnight Cry" by Francis D, Nichol page 479

"After breakfast I said to one of my breathren, 'Let us go and see, and encorage some of our breathren.' We started and while passing through a large field I was stopped about midway of the field. Heaven seemed open to my view, and I saw distinctly and clearly that instead of our High Priest coming out of the Most Holy of the heavenly sanctrary to come to this earth on the tenth day of the seventh month, at the end of the 2300 days, He for the first time entered on that day the second apartment of that sanctuary; and that He had a work to perform in the most holy before coming to this earth. That He came to the marriage at that time to the Ancient of days to receive a kingdom, dominion, and glory; and we must wait for His return (from the wedding)...

[John317]

Quote:

wayfinder: ... The point is, not one text was offered in support of the Adventist "pilliar of truth".

Where are you getting the phrase "pillar of truth"? It may be used somewhere but I'm not familiar with it. Do you mean "pillars of our faith"?

I don't know if anyone talked at Ballanger's trial about the Bible texts and support, but they certainly should have. If they didn't, it was a mistake and something that ought not to have been done.

Quote:

wayfinder: The only support offered was Ellen White's spirit's testimony and the vision of H. Edson.

Hiram Edson never had a vision. I've never heard any mention of "Ellen White's spirit's testimony."

Quote:

wayfinder: Am I to believe that if the Bible does not supply a relevent text, then we are to rely on Ellen White?

Ellen White never asked people to rely simply on her visions and not to examine the Bible evidence. But of course she does say some things that are not in the Bible. That is not important. The point is not that she says things not found in the Bible. The important question is, does she say things that clearly contradict the Bible. If she does, then believers must accept the Bible and reject what Ellen White says. She herself says this.

Quote:

wayfinder: This would mean that no one prior to her calling could possibly have had all the information they would need to know the truth. Or anyone in a foreign country who did not have access to her writtings.

Your premise is wrong and therefore you've arrived at a wrong conclusion.

Quote:

wayfinder: You were saying that Joseph Smith wrote additions to the Bible, and this is true, but are you not doing the same with EGW's writtings when she supplies only a "thus sayth the Lord" without supplying a relevant text?

Ellen White doesn't write additions to the Bible. The Bible supplies plenty of evidence for the Investigative Judgement. You will find quite a bit of the evidence described in the books I've listed in previous posts if you take the time to read them. Have you studied any of them?

[John317]

Quote:

wayfinder: I do not agree with Ballanger's understanding.

How does your view of the heavenly sanctuary, or the IJ, differ from Ballanger's?

[wayfinder]

We are not to receive the words of those who come with a message that contradicts the special points of our faith. They gather together a mass of Scripture, and pile it as proof around their asserted theories. This has been done over and over again during the past fifty years. And while the Scriptures are God's word, and are to be respected, the application of them, if such application moves one pillar from the foundation that God has sustained these fifty years, is a great mistake. He who makes such an application knows not the wonderful demonstration of the Holy Spirit that gave power and force to the past messages that have come to the people of God.

I connected the above underlined, that is the way it appeared to me. "pillar of faith" would seem to be amenable to scrutany.

There were not Bible texts used at Ballanger,s trial.

In reguards to Hiram Edson. This is an excerpt from the same book, page 478.

A Millerite, Hiram Edson, lining in the State of New York, watched for the Lord to come on October 22. His sorrow, and that of others in his group, was so keen when night fell that they "wept till the day dawn" of October 23.

It was Edson's vision that gave the understanding of the sanctuary doctrine which was embraced by Ellen White and the Adventists. It gave an explaination which they readily embraced without any study to see if it was scriptural.

It is interesting to me that you have never heard of Hiram Edson's vision in the cornfield. The Adventist historical society has procured a barn and field close to the original one.

Concerning what Ellen White said: never say never.

As I said before, A.F. Ballanger was sensored and expelled because of Ellen White's actions period.

Like the great reformer Martin Luther, Albion Ballenger was cast out from his church for taking his stand upon the Bible and the Bible alone. After Ballenger's death on August 19, 1921, A.T. Jones, a long-time friend and associate of Ballenger, wrote thus of him:

"I can truly say that never have I known a man of a kinder heart or more tender spirit than he, nor one who more genuinely and devoutly feared the Lord, or was more deeply devoted to His service and His worship." A.T. Jones, Gathering Call, Sep./Oct. 1921, p. 3

[Dr. Rich]

John, I have read four of these books already and all four of them stretched (not quite the right word) to reach what the author wanted them to say. I did not read "Silencing of Satan".

I have read just about every one of Goldstein's book and while I like his style of writing, I find that he is clueless to what is the real truth. Perhaps he has fostered some of his past understanding or doctrine and uses it way too much to make jabs at the words of Jesus like the writer of Romans did.

I find it interesting that you have not answered my question regarding Rev. 11:1-3 and it's meaning. Ballenger and Dr. Ford (and EGW) never used this (if my memory is correct) vital piece of information which is unfortunate. Knowing the timing for this is a must to correctly understand the Judgment issue. When you understand this you will know why both Ballenger and EGW were wrong.

But you do agree that the IJ theory (that is what it really is) about it starting in 1844 was invented to save face because of the great disappointment.

I did not know this thread would go this direction because I thought most here are students and have read about Dr. Ford and Ballenger and what EGW did to him already.

What I attempted to point out that the damage caused by Niel Wilson and Folkenberg to David Dennis (and our church) has been swept under the carpet and the present GC and it's lawyers still refuse to show the evidence they say they have against Pastor David Dennis. I call this a real crime and a violation of God's law.

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: I have read four of these books already and all four of them stretched (not quite the right word) to reach what the author wanted them to say.

What did those books say about Hebrews 6: 19? Please give references.

Show examples of this "stretching," Dr. Rich.

Quote:

Dr. Rich: I did not read "Silencing of Satan".

It's one of the best books published on the subject of the Bible evidence for the Investigative Judgment, and it's only been out for about three years.

Quote:

Dr. Rich: I have read just about every one of Goldstein's book and while I like his style of writing, I find that he is clueless to what is the real truth.

Please give some examples.

[John317]

Quote:

wayfinder: In reguards to Hiram Edson. This is an excerpt from the same book, page 478.

A Millerite, Hiram Edson, lining in the State of New York, watched for the Lord to come on October 22. His sorrow, and that of others in his group, was so keen when night fell that they "wept till the day dawn" of October 23.

It was Edson's vision that gave the understanding of the sanctuary doctrine which was embraced by Ellen White and the Adventists. It gave an explaination which they readily embraced without any study to see if it was scriptural.

It is interesting to me that you have never heard of Hiram Edson's vision in the cornfield. The Adventist historical society has procured a barn and field close to the original one.

I'm aware that some people have said he had a vision, but Edson himself never referred to it as a vision.

Of course I have heard of Edson's experience. I grew up in an SDA home and remember being told of Edson and then reading about it myself when I was a young boy. Since then I've read of it and studied it from Hiram Edson's own handwriting in the Heritage Room in Loma Linda. James Nix of the White Estate wrote his Master's Thesis on Hiram Edson, and I've talked personally to Nix a number of times about his study of Hiram Edson.

But no, I've never seen any evidence that it was a vision that Edson had in the cornfield. Unless you can quote Edson or someone who heard Edson say he had a vision, we shouldn't apply words to his experience that Edson never used.

SDAs never claimed that anyone should believe Edson without verifying the Bible's teaching on the topic. No one has ever said the IJ is based on what Edson said. If their study of the Bible didn't support the IJ, Edson's words would be worthless.

Edson's thoughts about this merely gave the Millerites reason to study the Bible to see if his viewpoint was supported by Scripture. The result of this study was later published in the Day-Star, and can be read online.

My father wrote the biography of Miller, The Urgent Voice, The Story of William Miller, which was published by the Review and Herald in 1975. It was used in classes on the history of the church, at Loma Linda University. Of course, as one might expect, The Urgent Voice contains the story of Hiram Edson and what occurred on Oct. 23, 1844. You can't read a history of the SDA church or of the Millerites without being very familiar with Hiram Edson. See page 128 of that book, and you'll notice that it doesn't say Edson had a "vision." You can read the book in the Heritage Room in Loma Linda, if you can't get it elsewhere. You may also order it online. Google the title of the book.

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich:But you do agree that the IJ theory (that is what it really is) about it starting in 1844 was invented to save face because of the great disappointment.

No, I don't agree with that, Dr. Rich. You speak of it in the same way that non-SDA critics speak of the history of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

It's not a theory any more than Righteousness by Faith is a theory. But I realize you don't believe in Righteousness by Faith.

I don't view it as a theory any more than the doctrine of the state of the dead is a theory. There are people who think it's a theory, too. In fact, I know at least one person on Adventist Forum that believes it's just a theory that Jesus Christ existed. i know you beleive it's a theory that Paul was an apostle of Christ.

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: ....I find it interesting that you have not answered my question regarding Rev. 11:1-3 and it's meaning. Ballenger and Dr. Ford (and EGW) never used this (if my memory is correct) vital piece of information which is unfortunate. Knowing the timing for this is a must to correctly understand the Judgment issue. When you understand this you will know why both Ballenger and EGW were wrong.

You can be sure that the reason they didn't use that verse in the way that you are-- to find fault with Ellen White's teachings and the IJ-- is that it's a baseless argument.

Quote:

Dr. Rich; What I attempted to point out that the damage caused by Niel Wilson and Folkenberg to David Dennis (and our church) has been swept under the carpet and the present GC and it's lawyers still refuse to show the evidence they say they have against Pastor David Dennis. I call this a real crime and a violation of God's law.

What does this have to do with what we're talking about?

You certainly seem to have a lot of negative things to say about the SDA church and its leaders. Why don't I hear anything positive from you about the church you hold your membership in?

[wayfinder]

John317, you seem to appreciate Wikipedia, this is from the account there.

The Great Disappointment

Edson spent October 22, 1844 with friends waiting for the event, and was heart-broken when Jesus did not return as expected. He later wrote,

"Our fondest hopes and expectations were blasted, and such a spirit of weeping came over us as I never experienced before. It seemed that the loss of all earthly friends could have been no comparison. We wept, and wept, till the day dawn."[4]

As the hours passed, Edson reflected on the events of the previous year. He believed he had been given the power to heal the sick, and he had seen many hundreds of friends turn to Jesus as a result of his preaching. His confidence soon returned, and he suggested that he and some friends visit some nearby Adventists (or Millerites) to encourage them. On the morning of October 23 they were passing through Edson's cornfield where he claimed to have seen a vision. In this vision, Edson came to understand that "the cleansing of the sanctuary" meant that Jesus was moving from the Holy Place to the Most Holy Place in the heavenly sanctuary, and not to the Second Coming of Jesus to earth:

"We started, and while passing through a large field I was stopped about midway of the field. Heaven seemed opened to my view, and I saw distinctly and clearly that instead of our High Priest coming out of the Most Holy of the heavenly sanctuary to come to this earth on the tenth day of the seventh month, at the end of the 2300 days, He for the first time entered on that day the second apartment of that sanctuary; and that He had a work to perform in the Most Holy Place before coming to the earth."[5]

This is from suite101.com

Hiram Edson Receives a Vision

Much like William Miller, Hiram Edson was a fervent religious believer from a farming background. Edson was an early leader in the Advent movement both before and after the Great Disappointment. Much like the other Adventists, he had waited expectantly for Jesus to return to earth on October 22, 1844.

•When Christ failed to return as expected, Edson spent the night in his barn, praying for guidance along with a few fellow believers.

•The following morning, as he walked across a corn field, Edson said he saw a vision of Jesus moving from the holy place to the most holy place of the sanctuary in heaven, to "cleanse the sanctuary." Instead of returning to earth as expected, Edson said Jesus moved through the heavenly sanctuary that day to begin a new phase of his ministry.

Edson's testimony has become one of the most revered statements in all Adventist history, often referenced in support of the sanctuary doctrine, an interpretation of Daniel 8:14 unique to the SDA Church

I find it interesting that you do not know about Hiram Edson's corn field vision, it is a hallmark of the SDA sanctuary doctrine. I remember learning about it at Bakersfield Academy, in bible class.

[John317]

Quote:

wayfinder: you seem to appreciate Wikipedia, this is from the account there.

.... On the morning of October 23 they were passing through Edson's cornfield where he claimed to have seen a vision. In this vision, Edson came to understand that "the cleansing of the sanctuary" meant that Jesus was moving from the Holy Place to the Most Holy Place in the heavenly sanctuary, and not to the Second Coming of Jesus to earth:

"We started, and while passing through a large field I was stopped about midway of the field. Heaven seemed opened to my view, and I saw distinctly and clearly that instead of our High Priest coming out of the Most Holy of the heavenly sanctuary to come to this earth on the tenth day of the seventh month, at the end of the 2300 days, He for the first time entered on that day the second apartment of that sanctuary; and that He had a work to perform in the Most Holy Place before coming to the earth."

...Hiram Edson Receives a Vision

Much like William Miller, Hiram Edson was a fervent religious believer from a farming background. ....The following morning, as he walked across a corn field, Edson said he saw a vision of Jesus moving from the holy place to the most holy place of the sanctuary in heaven, to "cleanse the sanctuary." ....

Question: the article says Edson said he saw a vision, but where did he ever say such a thing? Please quote him and give the reference.

You'll notice there are no quotes of Hiram Edson saying he had a "vision." His description of his experience doesn't indicate that he had a vision, either.

The writer of the article in the wikipedia is interpreting Hiram Edson to mean that he had a vision, but that is different from Hiram Edson actually saying he had a vision. Edson never said he had a vision.

Quote:

wayfinder: I find it interesting that you do not know about Hiram Edson's corn field vision, it is a hallmark of the SDA sanctuary doctrine. I remember learning about it at Bakersfield Academy, in bible class.

You evidently didn't read the following:

I'm aware that some people have said he had a vision, but Edson himself never referred to it as a vision.

Of course I have heard of Edson's experience. I don't really remember when I didn't know it because I grew up in an SDA home and remember hearing of Edson and then reading about it myself when I was a very young child. Since then I've read of it and studied it from Hiram Edson's own handwriting in the Heritage Room in Loma Linda. James Nix of the White Estate wrote his Master's Thesis on Hiram Edson, and I've talked personally to Nix a number of times about his study of Hiram Edson.

But no, I've never seen any evidence that it was a vision that Edson had in the cornfield. Unless you can quote Edson or someone who heard Edson say he had a "vision," we shouldn't apply words to his experience that Edson never used.

SDAs never claimed that anyone should believe Edson without verifying the Bible's teaching on the topic. No one has ever said the IJ is based on what Edson said. If their study of the Bible didn't support the IJ, Edson's words would be worthless.

Edson's thoughts about this merely gave the Millerites reason to study the Bible to see if his viewpoint was supported by Scripture. The result of this study was later published in the Day-Star, and can be read online.

My father wrote the biography of Miller, The Urgent Voice, The Story of William Miller, which was published by the Review and Herald in 1975. It was used in classes on the history of the church, at Loma Linda University. Of course, as one might expect, The Urgent Voice contains the story of Hiram Edson and what occurred on Oct. 23, 1844. You can't read a history of the SDA church or of the Millerites without being very familiar with Hiram Edson. See page 128 of that book, and you'll notice that it doesn't say Edson had a "vision." You can read the book in the Heritage Room in Loma Linda, if you can't get it elsewhere. You may also order it online. If interested, Google the title of the book.

[Dr. Rich]

John, The SDA Church today IS the Kingdom of Heaven! You MUST be in the KOH for salvation. Only a FEW (Rev. 3:4) will know the truth and these come from the KOH. Now, are you happy for these GOOD things about the SDA Church?

As for the IJ? Common sense would say it is nonsense! If God created the whole world and everything in it in 6 days, why would it take God over 150 years to investigate who is in the book of life? The IJ is total fiction. And you still have not answered by question.

[karl]

As for the IJ? Common sense would say it is nonsense! If God created the whole world and everything in it in 6 days, why would it take God over 150 years to investigate who is in the book of life? The IJ is total fiction. And you still have not answered by question.

The reason for the length of the IJ is because it is preparing a people for the events just prior to Christ's second coming. The lengthiness of it is due to the human element, not the heavenly element.

[John317]

The following is all true. Notice he spent the night in the barn praying to God for guidance, and I believe that God answered his prayer.

Quote:

Much like William Miller, Hiram Edson was a fervent religious believer from a farming background. Edson was an early leader in the Advent movement both before and after the Great Disappointment. Much like the other Adventists, he had waited expectantly for Jesus to return to earth on October 22, 1844.

When Christ failed to return as expected, Edson spent the night in his barn, praying for guidance along with a few fellow believers.

"Our fondest hopes and expectations were blasted, and such a spirit of weeping came over us as I never experienced before. It seemed that the loss of all earthly friends could have been no comparison. We wept, and wept, till the day dawn... We started, and while passing through a large field I was stopped about midway of the field. Heaven seemed opened to my view, and I saw distinctly and clearly that instead of our High Priest coming out of the Most Holy of the heavenly sanctuary to come to this earth on the tenth day of the seventh month, at the end of the 2300 days, He for the first time entered on that day the second apartment of that sanctuary; and that He had a work to perform in the Most Holy Place before coming to the earth."

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: As for the IJ? Common sense would say it is nonsense! If God created the whole world and everything in it in 6 days, why would it take God over 150 years to investigate who is in the book of life?

Your statement here is a clear demonstration that you do not understand the Investigative Judgment. No one who understands it would say such a thing.

God could have conducted the investigation within a very short time. God Himself is not dependent on "time." The Investigation is not in order for God to learn anything.

What your posts continue to show is that you take the views you do because of your misunderstanding of basic doctrines. This includes your rejection of about 2/3 of the New Testament and the doctrine of righteousness by faith.

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: The SDA Church today IS the Kingdom of Heaven! You MUST be in the KOH for salvation.

How could you believe the SDA church is the Kingdom of Heaven and at the same time believe as you do about the founders of the church and the way in which the church arose?

You are saying the Kingdom of Heaven had a false prophet as a co-founder and that the foundational doctrine of the Kingdom of Heaven, the Investigative Judgment, is false. You are saying the basic reason that Adventists organized into the SDA church was false, yet you claim to believe that this church is the Kingdom of Heaven. The church believes in the entire Bible, which you reject. Are you sure you are in the right church?

Does your pastor & the church board know what you believe and teach at the SDA church?

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: The SDA Church today IS the Kingdom of Heaven! You MUST be in the KOH for salvation. Only a FEW (Rev. 3:4) will know the truth and these come from the KOH. Now, are you happy for these GOOD things about the SDA Church?

It seems to me you either teach negative falsehoods about the church or positive falsehoods. (I have no doubt that you sincerely believe these falsehoods.) The SDA church is not the Kingdom of Heaven. The Kingdom of Heaven is synonymous with the Kingdom of God. They're used interchangeably in the NT.

If you accepted the entire Bible, you would not believe the SDA church is the kingdom of heaven. You believe as you do because of your rejection of 2/3 of the NT and because you've chosen to reject Ellen White as God's messenger. It proves to me that Ellen White was correct in what she says about those SDAs who reject her writings.

[wayfinder]

John317, there is an investigative judgment, but it is not exactly what it has been presented. Notice in the following texts, there is a investigative process that starts with the seating of the court in heaven and the opening of "books". It would appear that the first rendered judgment, by this court, is against the horn with eyes and a mouth speaking boastful words. This verdict is not directed against an individual but a ruler that has dominion, for we are told that his dominion is taken away. If this is an individual judgment process it is not limited to that.

Daniel 7:9 "I kept looking Until thrones were set up, And the Ancient of Days took His seat ; His vesture was like white snow And the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne was ablaze with flames, Its wheels were a burning fire. 10 "A river of fire was flowing And coming out from before Him; Thousands upon thousands were attending Him, And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him; The court sat, And the books were opened.

Daniel 7:25 'He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law ; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. 26 'But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever.

Ellen White says this event in Daniel and the one in Revelation 20:12, are the same event, clearly they are not. This is from Great Controversy page 480

The books of record in heaven, in which the names and the deeds of men are registered, are to determine the decisions of the judgment. Says the prophet Daniel: "The judgment was set, and the books were opened." The revelator, describing the same scene, adds: "Another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

Revelation 20:12 NAS

And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened ; and another book was opened, which is the book of life ; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

If this were true, than the book of life would be opened before the seven seals were broken, even before the Son of God receives the "Lambs book of life". I wonder why her spirit guide failed to point this out.