Has the damage from Desmond Ford subsided?

[Dr. Rich]

Good point John317 and well taken. I believe that Jesus' Mother was the Holy Spirit too, but what I am seeing is the Jesus said He became sanctified so that we also can become sanctified.

What does being sanctified mean--(I do not know the answer to this.) MM and I had a debate on this just this morning and there are lots of unanswered questions about this. I don't want to hijack the thread, but I am wondering what others think.

[BSW]

Quote:

What does being sanctified mean

The simple answer is John 17:17 "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."

We cannot be sanctified without understanding the sin principle.

2 Corinthians 13:8 tells us "For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth."

To be sanctified means --- Christ Jesus in you!

The million dollar question is not what does sanctification mean, but rather how can sanctification be?

I look at Mr. Fords theology flaw (in my understanding) through the eye of faith.

The absolute holy beauty of the sanctuary services witnessed in the shadow and manifested in human nature can only point to glorification. Adoption into something that cannot be created, but chosen, and redeemed through Jesus' suffering is a glory everlasting. He is the only lamb, the only sin bearer, the only sacrifice.

I believe those that think themselves saved will be the very one's that will seek to kill the true. How ironic.

It makes me weep when we cheepen the sin issue. It will be the forever link of the forgiven to Christ. Romans 5:20 states: "Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:"

[Dr. Rich]

Yes, but while one is truly sanctified by the words of Jesus (God), it still didn't answer the question on what IS sanctification? Is there any way one can know if and when they have been sanctified? Is it the same as being 'born again'?

I can't agree with the million dollar question. If Jesus told the woman to go and sin no more, did He say that in the hopes she would not sin, or was it even possible for her never to sin again? Is not sanctification when you will never sin again? Is not being born again by the Holy Spirit the same thing? Or, is their a difference between the two? If so, why?

[BSW]

Quote:

If Jesus told the woman to go and sin no more, did He say that in the hopes she would not sin, or was it even possible for her never to sin again?

To think Jesus would ask something of us of which we cannot do would be grounds of protest by the enemy. To be born of the Spirit, not just of water, means that when we stand before an offended Father, He sees Jesus' character of obedience and faith (Rev.14:12).

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Is not sanctification when you will never sin again?

In my understanding, yes. Truely sanctified living is a life hid in Christ Jesus. We are no longer our own. 1 John 3:9 says "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

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Is not being born again by the Holy Spirit the same thing? Or, is their a difference between the two? If so, why?

I think they are the same, just worded differently. Or we could say that one that is born again in Christ is sanctified in Him and by Him.

1 Peter 1:22,23 "Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever."

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: If Jesus told the woman to go and sin no more, did He say that in the hopes she would not sin, or was it even possible for her never to sin again? Is not sanctification when you will never sin again? Is not being born again by the Holy Spirit the same thing? Or, is their a difference between the two? If so, why?

You're not recognizing a very basic fact. Jesus didn't tell the woman to go and never commit a single sin for the rest of her life. The original language-- and it comes out in many good translations-- signifies that Jesus was saying, "Go and do not keep practicing sin." Or "do not keep sinning."

She'd been living a life of sin before. Jesus is telling her to stop living that kind of life devoted to sin.

By the way, I do strongly believe that with God's Spirit, the born-again believer is enable to resist every temptation to sin. We're empowered to overcome all known sin, but this is not for the purpose of earning salvation or earning merit with God. It's primarily for the purpose of glorifying God before the universe and is demonstration that we are living in the Spirit.

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: ... Is not sanctification when you will never sin again?

Being sanctified is the same as being holy. God is holy and does not sin at all, ever. Fallen humans may become holy, but that doesn't mean fallen humans become perfectly sinless, or mistake-proof, free of absolutely any and all sin. Bible sanctification is a process. It's a growth in spiritual awareness and obedience to God. The Bible speaks of believers in Christ as having been sanctified at the same moment we were justified, but it also refers to believers' continuing sanctification. The new birth is the beginning of this process, not the end.

So there are two aspects of sanctification that we need to be aware of. Believers become more and more holy as we draw closer to Christ and learn of Him and obey Him in every aspect of our lives.

Sanctification simply means being set apart for God's purpose, or possession-- separated from what is common or sinful.

But two things need to be kept in mind:

1) The closer we are to Christ the more unworthy we know ourselves to be, and the less we will consider ourselves "holy" in the sense of being without sin. Any time people talk of how they are without sin, you may be absolutely sure they are on the wrong road.

2) We will never come to the point where we will be able to say, "I've arrived." The Holy Spirit will always be gently and lovingly pointing out our defects and our sins, and as He does so, if we love Christ, we will want to follow the Spirit's leading and overcome those sins and defects. As we do this, and as we seek God's help, God in-fills us with His Spirit so that we can do His will.

[Dr. Rich]

John's posts are an interesting view, not that I agree with him. He wrote: "The Bible speaks of believers in Christ as having been sanctified at the same moment we were justified, but it also refers to believers' continuing sanctification. The new birth is the beginning of this process, not the end."

So John, do you then believe that 'justification' and 'sanctification' is the same thing? Sure sounds like it. If the 'new birth' (born again), is the beginning, then please tell me what the end is?

If a baby's Mather is the Holy Spirit, then wouldn't that make you 'God'? Wouldn't that make you on par with Jesus? Wouldn't that make you a member of the family of God?

As a member of the family of God, wouldn't that mean that you do not sin anymore? Isn't this the same thing as being sealed by God? (meaning you will never sin again)

BSW, I do agree with your reply!

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: ...do you then believe that 'justification' and 'sanctification' is the same thing? Sure sounds like it.

Justification occurs when people honestly and sincerely make a commitment to Christ, claiming Him as their personal Savior from sin, who died for them and was raised from the dead for them. When they call upon God out of a sincere desire for God to be their Lord and Savior, at that moment God graciously and freely pardons their sins and treats them just as if they had never sinned. He puts to their account all the rightouesness of His perfect Son.

At the same moment, God sets the justified and pardoned believer apart for His service and work, and for an intimate, loving relationship with Himself. Being separated from the common and ordinary is what's meant by "sanctified." So God sets us apart for His service. We become his bondservants, his slaves. Being enslaved by God means being set free-- set free to be what the Creator made us to be in the first place. It means being able to realize our true potential, instead of being forced to do evil for the devil.

That is the beginning of our walk with God-- the beginning of our being made holy for God's use. But there's a real sense in which this walk-- this learning process-- will continue throught all eternity. The potential for spiritual growth and becoming like God in our characters and minds is endless.

Quote:

If the 'new birth' (born again), is the beginning, then please tell me what the end is?

If we are faithful, the end is glorification at the Second Coming when God gives us the gift of immortality and shares His throne with us. Rev. 3: 21.

[Dr. Rich]

WHAT? I thought I understood, but now you got me all confused again with words like "bond servant" "slave" and then "set free"? How can someone be free and still be a slave? Is this really what you said?

You said something about a "personal relationship", what is this all about? Is it your understanding that someone can be saved even though they are not in the same 'fold' as the Kingdom of Heaven?

I am having a hard time finding where Jesus said or taught that one must have a personal relationship with Him.

So John, what does the word 'holy' mean? I thought it meant 'set apart'.

One more thing: Does God forgive those who do not ask for forgiveness? Or does He forgive even when one refuses to forgive others when they ask for forgiveness?

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: WHAT? I thought I understood, but now you got me all confused again with words like "bond servant" "slave" and then "set free"? How can someone be free and still be a slave? Is this really what you said?

Ever heard of any slave who was bought by a slave master for the purpose of giving him his liberty? That is kind of what God has done. Our service is a service of love, not fear or out of force. We are free to be what God intended us to be. When in slavery to Satan, we are forced to do many things we don't want to do. God gives us the freedom to be and to do what we want to do as God's plan for us becomes our own. Enslavement to Christ is a life of joyfulness.

Quote:

Dr. Rich: You said something about a "personal relationship", what is this all about? Is it your understanding that someone can be saved even though they are not in the same 'fold' as the Kingdom of Heaven?

You remember when Jesus talked about eating his flesh and drinking his blood? That's can't happen without a personal relationship.

Do you know the difference between a personal and impersonal relationship? What kind of relationship do you have with your wife?

What kind of relationship did the disciples have with their Lord? Was it personal? That's the kind of relationship He wants to have with us. He wants us to share all of our dreams and hopes and needs with him. He wants us to confess all of our most personal sins and share all of our secrets with Him.

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Dr. Rich: So John, what does the word 'holy' mean? I thought it meant 'set apart'.

Holy is the same really as sanctified, and yes, sactified has to do with being "set apart." I am using both the Latin derived word and the English words. But it means more than "set apart." It means being separte from sin for a holy purpose. For instance, God sets us apart in order to preach and teach the gospel of His kingdom. God said to the children of Israel, "You must be holy [sanctified] for I am holy." In other words, God was teaching them that they (and we) could not expect to be in a close relationship with a holy God unless they themselves were also holy.

Quote:

One more thing: Does God forgive those who do not ask for forgiveness? Or does He forgive even when one refuses to forgive others when they ask for forgiveness?

Jesus died for me before I was born and before I asked for forgivenes. But that forgiveness doesn't become effective in my own life and in my own relationship with God until I acknowledge I'm a sinner and in need of God forgiveness and spiritual healing. It is kind of like a doctor who can't help a patient until the patient trusts the doctor enough to accept his examination, diagnosis and treatment, which sometimes means surgery. He literally trust the doctor enough to put his life in the surgeons hands. We must trust Christ similarly. When we confess our sins, it is like the patience accepting the doctor's diagnosis. It is telling God He is right in his diagnosis of our desperate condition. Our condition is that we are sinful and lost and in rebellion against God and that we will consequently die eternally without His interferene and rescue.

Have to leave for Loma Linda now. Talk later.

[Dr. Rich]

Thanks John, I did like your reply!

[John317]

[phkrause]

John is this a first? HaHaHa just kidding guys.

I think its a rarity when Dr. Rich agrees with you. LOL

pk

[Gail]

Originally Posted By: John317

John is this a first? HaHaHa just kidding guys.

I think its a rarity when Dr. Rich agrees with you. LOL

I saw this and I had to come look! :)

[John317]

Quote:

pkrause:John is this a first? HaHaHa just kidding guys.

I think its a rarity when Dr. Rich agrees with you. LOL

pk

It may seem like it, but no, it actually isn't.

I told Dr. Rich when we met and talked for several hours that we probably agreed on more than we disagreed on.

But yeah, when I posted that thingy, I thought someone would probably wonder what's going on here. Makes ya wonder, don't it, what's the world comin' to anyways. lol

But be sure to check out what we're agreeing on!

[phkrause]

Quote:

pkrause:John is this a first? HaHaHa just kidding guys.

I think its a rarity when Dr. Rich agrees with you. LOL

pk

It may seem like it, but no, it actually isn't.

I told Dr. Rich when we met and talked for several hours that we probably agreed on more than we disagreed on.

But yeah, when I posted that thingy, I thought someone would probably wonder what's going on here. Makes ya wonder, don't it, what's the world comin' to anyways. lol

But be sure to check out what we're agreeing on!

That's why I said I was just kidding.

pk

[Rudy G]

What about E.G.W.?

"Satan declared that it was impossible for the sons and daughters of Adam to keep the law of God, and thus charged upon God a lack of wisdom and love. If they could not keep the law, then there was fault with the Lawgiver. Men who are under the control of Satan repeat these accusations against God, in asserting that men can not keep the law of God. Jesus humbled himself, clothing his divinity with humanity, in order that he might stand as the head and representative of the human family, and by both precept and example condemn sin in the flesh, and give the lie to Satan’s charges. He was subjected to the fiercest temptations that human nature can know, yet he sinned not; for sin is the transgression of the law. By faith he laid hold upon divinity, even as humanity may lay hold upon infinite power through him. Although tempted upon all points even as men are tempted, he sinned not. He did not surrender his allegiance to God, as did Adam. {ST, January 16, 1896 par. 2}

I have not had time to respond with examples for some of my earlier comments. But, this quote from EGW posted earlier will help illustrate the difficulty I have embracing some SDA and EGW theological positions.

EGW makes a claim about Satan that cannot be verified in scripture and IMHO if taken at face value tends to lead to conclusions that conflict with scripture. This statement (along with others she makes) implies there has always been a law to be “kept”. I can except that there is an eternal moral law that defines moral causes and effects in the same way that the laws of physics determines physical causes and their effects. However, scripture seems to be crystal clear to me that a law of don’ts (or dos) to be kept is temporary and God’s direct response to sin (see Romans 5 to start).

It seems to me that scripture makes it clear that fallen humanity (the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve) does have a problem keeping the law. It is also clear that it is God’s intention to redeem/restore/save humanity from its fallen state. When God gave the “Law” to the Children of Israel, it included an elaborate and highly symbolic sacrificial system to deal with failure to keep the law perfectly. It pointed to the time in history when God would deal with sin and provide a “just” means of forgiving fallen humans of their sins (those that were revealed by law as well as those that were not). How much more plainly could God acknowledge that the sons and daughters of Adam (and Eve) had a problem keeping the law.

It also seems crystal clear that the NT (particularly Paul) teaches us that the law given to the Children of Israel was designed to reveal their (and humanity’s) fallenness and not to solve the problem with sin (fallenness). They failed to “keep” the letter and the spirit of the law (at least in part) because they were sinners. Sin will be part of our being until our bodies (and brains in paticular) are glorified (made perfect). Until then we cannot obey the law perfectly (or more importantly be in harmony with God’s eternal moral principles), but we can choose a sinless destination. We can choose to be like Jesus who was sinless. We can demonstrate through faith and obedience to the Spirit that in our heart of hearts we truly have chosen the sinless destination.

Satan is no longer concerned about winning an argument over who can keep the law. He is defeated. He is now focused on preventing the salvation of as many as possible. His number one goal now is to obscure the way to be saved (“a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour”).

The human inclination to obsess on “law” obedience is often perceived as lifting the standard. In truth it is substituting a band aid for the surgical cure that is required. The surgical cure: stony hearts replaced by hearts of flesh, but only for those who have demonstrated a true desire for the heart of flesh through faith and obedience.

[Gerr]

Quote:

I have not had time to respond with examples for some of my earlier comments. But, this quote from EGW posted earlier will help illustrate the difficulty I have embracing some SDA and EGW theological positions.

It only seems fair to me that when someone makes accusations/contradictions that one should be able to make the time to explain their objections. Otherwise anyone can do it but no credibility could be attributed to it.

Quote:

EGW makes a claim about Satan that cannot be verified in scripture and IMHO if taken at face value tends to lead to conclusions that conflict with scripture.

When Moses said, "In the beginning God created....." could that be verified by Scripture. Does everything a prophet says verifiable by Scripture?

Quote:

This statement (along with others she makes) implies there has always been a law to be “kept”. I can except that there is an eternal moral law that defines moral causes and effects in the same way that the laws of physics determines physical causes and their effects.

"I can except". Did you mean I can't accept?

The law is eternal, Ps 119. You are right that the 10c law of dos and don'ts are temporary. Jesus said that these 10 and all other laws/commandments hang on 2 commandments: Love to God and love to fellow beings. These are as eternal as God Himself.

[karl]

The law is eternal, Ps 119. You are right that the 10c law of dos and don'ts are temporary. Jesus said that these 10 and all other laws/commandments hang on 2 commandments: Love to God and love to fellow beings. These are as eternal as God Himself.

Jesus summed up the ten with the two. The ten are NOT temporary.

[MichaelTheArch]

Please read my entire post before responding

The trigger date for the 2300 years is clearly given in Daniel 8, and to your shock, I'm here to tell you that it is not 457 BC.

457 BC points to the Messiah, and the 2300 year prophecy points to the cleansing of the sanctuary. Two completely different visions.

Daniel's vision in chapter 8 is explained by the angel to begin at the defeat of Darius the Mede in 334 BC.

Revelation 10 proves that Miller was wrong. Have any of you linked Revelation 10 to the Great Disappointment?

I was an Adventist for about 20 years, but I never let that stop me from continually digging for the truth.

Here, I'll give you more evidence that 1844 is wrong.

Miller, when he realized nothing was going to happen in 1843, went back to the drawing board and came up with the "there is no year zero" theory, and subsequently changed his calculation to 1844.

I'm going to show you how fooled we are by this and what a farce this notion is.

If I take negative 15 and add 16 to it, what is my answer? The answer is one. But according to Miller's "there is no year zero" theory, my answer should be 2 right?

457 BC is the equivalent of 3543. Now go forward 2300 years and you come to 5843 which = 1843

The zero is a pivot point between two numbers just like the pivot point between 11 and 12 AD. Because there is no "zero" between 11 and 12 must it be 13 AD?

Are you beginning to see how ridiculous this theory is?

I know this is not pleasant to hear but do the math yourself. Zero has nothing to do with how years progress forward.

It was a desperate move by miller and if you notice, nothing happened in either 1843 nor 1844. But he had the date from 457 BC correct to begin with. 1843

Now let's go forward from where the angel in Daniel 8 says to start the 2300 years.

334 BC was when Alexander the Great, exactly who the angel is revealing at the beginning of the vision, defeats Darius the Mede at the battle of Granicus. This happened after Passover, so using God's time clock, we find the next Passover in 333 BC.

Exactly 2300 Passovers after the battle at Granicus brings you to 1967. Did anything significant happen in 1967 related to when Jesus said, "this generation will not pass until all be fulfilled," or was this a non eventful year like 1843 and 1844?

The 6 Day War happened after Passover, on June 7, 1967. Exactly 2300 years after Alexander the Great defeats Darius the Mede.

The only thing that happen in 1843 is found in Revelation 10.

4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,

6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: (Miller)

Now notice, in the very next verse, what the angel tells the messenger that says there shall be time no longer.

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The following verses describe the disappointment that happened to thousands during the Millerite movement.

8And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth.

9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.

10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.

11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

We as Adventists have been asleep for 150 years and it's time to awaken and prophesy again.

Here is one more thread of proof I have for the start of the 2300 years being Alexander the Great. I discovered this on 3/12/2010

Look for the bear, the ram, and the goat, but know, that all the beasts of prophecy are written in the formation of the earth. Google maps (satellite)

Now for one more witness against 1843. Ask your pastor or any authority figure in the Adventist church, what the 1290 and 1335 year prophecy means. They cannot tell you with certainty what this is pointing to because 1843 is wrong as the angel in Revelation 10 pointed out.

In 1947, the command to recreate Israel as a sovereign state went forth in November of that year. Counting 70 Passovers, 70 feast of weeks (490 days) forward brings you to 2017.

1967, the 6 day war, to 2017 = 50 years (Pentecost/Jubilee)

Now add together the 1290 and 1335 and this = 2625 years. Subtract 2625 from 2017 and this = 608 BC.

608 BC

Encyclopedia Farlex http://encyclopedia.farlex.com/608+BC

Pharaoh Necho II, seeing the chance to fill the vacuum left by Assyria and to reassert Egypt’s traditional sway over Syria, sends his full army north. King Josiah of Judah, who still considers himself Assyria’s vassal, meets the Egyptians single-handed at Megiddo and is slain. It is this battle that gives its name to the prophetic world-battle of the biblical book of Revelations: ‘Har’ (the Mountain of) ‘Megiddo’, Armageddon

We are 7 years from completing the 70 from 1947 and the 50 from 1967. Have you noticed any great signs in 2010 that might indicate we are approaching the end?

Look at this photo of the volcanic ash from the Iceland eruption recently. Iceland Volcano

7.0 earthquake kills 250,000 in Haiti - 8.8 earthquake in Chile and the following week there are over 300 5.0 or greater aftershocks.

Disastrous oil spill in the Horse Bridle. Notice the horse on the floor of the Gulf of Mexico. The oil spill happened right behind the ear where the bridle would be

Adventist cannot interpret 90% of revelation, because 1843 is wrong. Proof? Who are the locusts in Revelation 9? Can any of you answer this? Behold the locust with his face up against Vietnam. Notice the face of a man behind the locust head who has hair like women. The locust is the protestant American war machine. Revelation 9

[MichaelTheArch]

One more thing - Go forward from 608 BC (see my previous post) 1290 years. It brings you to 682 AD - What was happening that might be considered the abomination of desolation in 682?

What was being built on the temple mount in Jerusalem? 682 + 1335 = 2017

The words inside the Dome of the Rock