What is the Gospel?

[pnattmbtc]

Regarding #363775, I've asked you on several occasions not to quote little snippets out of context. Please don't do that! If you wish to make some comment you think clever, please at least provide enough context to know what's being discussed.

What you're not being clear about is in regards to earning money. Sometimes you seem to say it's OK, as long as you're not doing so in a self-centered way, but other times you speak of receiving wealth as a gift, which you seem to view as OK, as opposed to earning money.

Quote:

p:This is an extremely poor analogy. Christ became an actual human being.

R:No, Christ remained Himself, God.

Really? No? Christ was not an actual human being? No?

Quote:

He took upon Himself our humanity...but it wasn't His or He would be a sinner.

So He wasn't an actual human being?

Quote:

p:Jesus said, "as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he,"

R:I can think I'm righteous all day long but that doesn't make it so....You are misusing that quote from Christ. The Bible says that there is none righteous, but one, that is God.

What do you think Jesus meant?

Quote:

p:you appear to have the idea that we can think apape in our heart but in our lives be serving self.

R:Well, you are serving self unless you are living Christ's selfless life - and don't even say you are because that would make you,

1] a liar

and

2] self-righteous and deceived.

What one claims isn't important.

Quote:

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.(Jude 1:9)

You didn't respond to my point. You appear to have the idea that we can think apape in our heart but in our lives be serving self. Is this correct? This correctly reflects what you think?

Quote:

p:If we wish to correctly understand the law, we should consider Christ.

R:If you look at the selfless life of Christ that's the fulfillment of the spirit of the law. This life you are failing to live and hence you fall short of the glory of God.

This is from "Thoughts From the Mount of Blessing":

Quote:

If you are the children of God you are partakers of His nature, and you cannot but be like Him. Every child lives by the life of his father. If you are God's children, begotten by His Spirit, you live by the life of God. In Christ dwells "all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Colossians 2:9); and the life of Jesus is made manifest "in our mortal flesh" (2 Corinthians 4:11). That life in you will produce the same character and manifest the same works as it did in Him. (MB 78)

The idea that one can be a follower of Christ and live for self is false.

Anyway, this isn't dealing with my point. My point was in regards to a proper understanding of the law. One can best obtain this by considering Christ. How did He speak of the law?

Quote:

p:The law is not a sentient being. If anyone requires perfection, that would be God. The law is simply a record. It can't literally "require" anything.

R:God requires perfection.

What teaching or act of Christ's leads you to this conclusion? How did Christ treat people? Did He require them to be perfect to be around Him?

Quote:

R:...No sin (which is our bent to self) can be tolerated in heaven or it would quickly become like this world...a mess!

Is it simply a problem of what would happen to heaven? Or to the individual doing the sinning? Is it a question of God's requiring certain acts, or that people who do certain things (i.e., live for self) harm themselves? (as well as others, of course)

Quote:

There are two ways that God has presented:

1] Accept Christ as our righteousness or

2] Keep the law.

I can't think of anywhere where Christ put things this way. I see Him teaching that He is the way to the Father, and working to reveal what the Father is like. That's what I see to be the burden of His ministry. The whole purpose of His earthly mission was the revelation of God that men might be set right and kept right with God.

You have a certain paradigm, a legal one, and interpret everything in the light of that one thing. But the Bible is about much more than this.

[Robert]

Sometimes you seem to say it's OK, as long as you're not doing so in a self-centered way, but other times you speak of receiving wealth as a gift, which you seem to view as OK, as opposed to earning money.

[Lineman]

I have not been around much and have missed much of what has been said in this discussion, so if I repeat something someone else has said please forgive me.

The original post asked the same question I had asked several people while preparing the Gospel Timeline on my website, "What is the Gospel?"

One thing I had noticed while trying to answer this question for myself was that Jesus Himself told those listening to Him one day to "believe the Gospel". So it appears that the Gospel cannot be just what He was going to do on the Cross. It had to be more.

Here is what I eventually came up with:

(Quoted from Bible Timelines Online)

"The Bible sums up the Gospel in John 3:16. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." God is love and everything that God has done, is doing, or will do stems from this love. "The history of the great conflict between good and evil, from the time it first began in heaven to the final overthrow of rebellion and the total eradication of sin, is...a demonstration of God's unchanging love." Patriarchs and Prophets, page 33

"In other words, the "Gospel" is the whole story of God's efforts to save us from sin and to rid the entire universe of sin. It's the story of how much God loves us. Much of this story is about what Jesus did for us 2,000 years ago and what He is still doing for us today, but this story actually began long before Jesus was born here on earth, because Jesus was not created. He was the Creator."

Of course the story breakdown continues, but I think you get the point.

[Guest]

I get the point Lineman. Robert you continually miss the point. It's not about being rich or poor. Neither one is a pre-requisite. The gospel can and will save people from all walks of life. Not just poor people.

[pnattmbtc]

p:Sometimes you seem to say it's OK, as long as you're not doing so in a self-centered way, but other times you speak of receiving wealth as a gift, which you seem to view as OK, as opposed to earning money.

R:Take what you are daily doing for yourself and instead do it for your neighbor. There is no self in agape. Comprehend?

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

"In other words, the "Gospel" is the whole story of God's efforts to save us from sin and to rid the entire universe of sin. It's the story of how much God loves us. Much of this story is about what Jesus did for us 2,000 years ago and what He is still doing for us today, but this story actually began long before Jesus was born here on earth, because Jesus was not created. He was the Creator."

Of course the story breakdown continues, but I think you get the point.

I agree with these points. You may be interested in looking for what I've said I think the Gospel is, which I've stated in a number of places, to see if you agree. I'll see if I can provide a post # to make it easier.

Here's one: #354563 (first page of topic, I think).

[Robert]

I get the point Lineman. Robert you continually miss the point. It's not about being rich or poor. Neither one is a pre-requisite. The gospel can and will save people from all walks of life. Not just poor people.

Dude....all I am saying is that if you live Christ's life in world dominated by self-interest, self-love and self-seeking you will be without.

[Robert]

R: Take what you are daily doing for yourself and instead do it for your neighbor. There is no self in agape. Comprehend?

I've been saying all along that to be happy in heaven one must be in harmony with God and His principles, which are the principles of agape. The difficulty has been with your comments about receiving wealth as a gift as opposed to earning it. These comments have implied you see the former as somehow better than the latter.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

R: Take what you are daily doing for yourself and instead do it for your neighbor. There is no self in agape. Comprehend?

p:I've been saying all along that to be happy in heaven one must be in harmony with God and His principles, which are the principles of agape. The difficulty has been with your comments about receiving wealth as a gift as opposed to earning it. These comments have implied you see the former as somehow better than the latter.

R:That would be a "no", you don't comprehend.

If you write something unclear, and no one understands what you're saying, it's rather delusional and arrogant to respond in the manner you are responding.

Quote:

That is, is this what you really believe? Christ was not an actual human being, and if He had become one, He wouldn't have remained Himself, God?

Dude...You go on tangents....Jesus is God. He has always been God, will always be God. At the incarnation God put the Deity in of Christ in a body that was prepared for Him. That body belonged to our fallen humanity under the curse. It was sinful. If it was Christ's then He was a sinner.

I said Jesus Christ was an actual human being, and you said "No, He remained Himself, God." That Jesus Christ was, and is, an actual human being I don't consider to be tangential.

Is it really your belief that Jesus Christ was not, and is not, an actual human being? Or did you misspeak? Please answer the question.

Quote:

You mean Jude is confused because he is legalistic? These are the words of Scripture, of Jude, not mine. You'd have to quote something I wrote to say I was confused.

No, you are the legalist and therefore you interpret everything in the light perfectionism.

You are being puerile. You used to have one paradigm, and now you have another. Anybody who doesn't have the paradigm you now hold you view to be a legalist. I think you are the legalist, for the reasons karl has explained. However, calling each other names doesn't achieve much. Opening one's mind to other possibilities that one hasn't thought of my accomplish something however.

If you have a theology which says it's OK for you to live in sin and that's OK, you're fine, bells should be ringing. This is very dangerous ground to be taking, because when the Holy Spirit convicts you of sin, you call Him a legalist, and then what can He do?

It's important that we understand that we cannot earn God's favor by anything we do, but if we understand that there's no need to earn God's favor, that this isn't an issue, then this whole question goes away.

It's not about the law.

Quote:

You didn't answer this question. Is this a correct appraisal of what you believe or not?

I've gave you my answer in quoting Romans 7. That's pretty much spelling it out.

It's pretty much dodging the question, which, unfortunately, is your general response. If someone asks you if they are correctly stating your position, you should be able to answer that yes or no. I'm sure you can, but you choose not to, for no reason I can think of other than to be unpleasant and difficult.

Quote:

p:Regarding the SOP statement I produced, you made no comment. You simply quoted other statements, which are dealing with a different topic.

R:Really...different topic? Man you are so far out in left field it ain't even funny. Once a legalist most likely always a legalist. You, like Job, are righteous in your own eyes.

Yes, the first topic has to do with our life reflecting the life of Christ. The second has to do with whether one can feel "I have arrived." You once again dodged the question. You just dodge questions and call people names. Surely you can see you're doing this. I can only wonder why. It certainly doesn't speak well of the position you are advocating.

Quote:

R:Then if you followed Christ in His denial of self you would be dirt poor unless your local SDA church was doing what the early church did in the book of Acts. See Acts 4:32-35

This isn't responsive.

Sure it was. saywa ...It's just you didn't like it very much.... ROFL

No, you just did the same thing as always. A juvenile retort, name calling, and dodging the question.

Quote:

p:Do you think Christ was speaking of "perfect" in the same legalistic sense you were? Or could He have had something else in mind?

Read my quote again. How perfect? "As God is perfect"

Another dodge.

I'm one of the few people who will carry on a conversation with you, Robert. Why? Because you won't discuss things in a civil manner. If someone disagrees with you, you call them names. You won't answer questions.

What's your purpose in participating in this forum? Is it just to provoke people? Or do you have a desire to understand and study truth? If the latter, please stop the name calling, and respond to the direct questions put to you.

[teresaq]

...

I'm one of the few people who will carry on a conversation with you, Robert. Why? Because you won't discuss things in a civil manner. If someone disagrees with you, you call them names. You won't answer questions.

What's your purpose in participating in this forum? Is it just to provoke people? Or do you have a desire to understand and study truth? If the latter, please stop the name calling, and respond to the direct questions put to you.

i might be wrong, robert, but isnt it because you need to hurt sdas as they have hurt you?

[Robert]

i might be wrong, robert, but isnt it because you need to hurt sdas as they have hurt you?

I'm trying to open the eyes of the self-righteous, but I have a feeling it's going to take something dramatic, like Job's experience, to open the eyes of those caught up into subtle legalism

[Robert]

I'm one of the few people who will carry on a conversation with you, Robert. Why?

[Robert]

Is it really your belief that Jesus Christ was not, and is not, an actual human being?

We are sinners by birth. If Jesus became human He would have been a sinner by nature.

[Robert]

Quote:

p:Do you think Christ was speaking of "perfect" in the same legalistic sense you were? Or could He have had something else in mind?

R: Read my quote again. How perfect? "As God is perfect"

P: Another dodge.

Here's the problem....Your questions are nothing more than setups....Answer your question right and you are very happy....Not falling for it....

Christ isn't demanding legalism. Legalism comes from our nature because it deceives our mind into thinking we can keep the spirit of God's law and in return gain heaven.

Since mankind is by nature proud and egocentric he thinks he can keep God's law. The only way to prove to him that he can't is to give him the law.

So if one thinks he can be perfect he must be perfect as God is perfect. That's why Christ stated what He did. He is trying to humble the self-righteous.

[Robert]

If you have a theology which says it's OK for you to live in sin and that's OK, you're fine, bells should be ringing.

Then you are to be perfect, as God is perfect. Stop all self-seeking, now! Stop it immediately.

[Robert]

Quote:

R: I've gave you my answer in quoting Romans 7. That's pretty much spelling it out.

P: It's pretty much dodging the question, which, unfortunately, is your general response.

If you can't comprehend Romans 7:22-Romans 8:3 that is your problem, not mine.....

[pnattmbtc]

R:I'm trying to open the eyes of the self-righteous, but I have a feeling it's going to take something dramatic, like Job's experience, to open the eyes of those caught up into subtle legalism.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

R:I'm trying to open the eyes of the self-righteous, but I have a feeling it's going to take something dramatic, like Job's experience, to open the eyes of those caught up into subtle legalism.

Why would you think calling people names, ignoring their questions, and behavior such as this would be helpful in this regard? If you wish to open people's eyes to their self-righteousness, reveal Christ to them.

With the self-righteous it take direct words...words not pleasing to hear:

Phil 3: 2 Watch out for those dogs , those men who do evil, those mutilators of the flesh. [see Acts chapter 15]

Matt 23:15 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are. ...25 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. ....You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.....33 "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 3

[Robert]

Thirdly, your theology is more legalistic than many of those against whom you accuse of the same.

In order to expose the impossibility of gaining heaven by anything one might do I am bound to give such a person more and more law until he gives up and rest in Christ for his ticket to heaven.

That's the reason God gave the law. Once you realize that the love of self, self-seeking, is sin then you, like Saul of old, will give up all your efforts for what you already have "in Christ" by faith.

[Robert]

simply believing that one can and should obey God is not legalism

And if one does not believe that one can fully reflect Christ (unless he is part of the 144,000) then what?

[SivartM]

Robert, I think you're the self-righteous one. You're more than happy to call other people dogs and hypocrites but God forbid anyone disagree with your sovereign intellect.

You are not God. So unless you are claiming to be a prophet then you lack the ability judge the characters of other people, especially people whom you do not know. So prove you're a prophet or come off your high horse and treat other people with respect, please.

[Robert]

R: So if one thinks he can be perfect he must be perfect as God is perfect. That's why Christ stated what He did. He is trying to humble the self-righteous.

No, this isn't why Christ stated what He did. You're not considering the context. Here's what Christ said:

Yes, Matt chapter 5, and its sister, Luke 6

Luke 6:27 "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies [how?],

do good to those who hate you,

28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.

29 If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also.

If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic [if you call the police you are stopping him/her]

30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Huh, give me all your money! No? Why not? You love yourself....Jesus says give it up....

31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.

32 "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back.

That's perfection....If you lived Christ's life, again, you would share His poverty....But since you and I are imperfect, i.e., we still love self, we do not completely share His poverty. We love self (which is sin)....Instead Christ took our love of self and bent it back towards those around Him.

So take your natural bent-to-self, straighten it out, and only live for those around you with no thoughts of yourself. The result? Poverty in world based in iniquity!!!!

[Robert]

come off your high horse and treat other people with respect, please.

Then do not attempt to put be me under law because none of you are living Christ's life....That's my beef with Adventism....You yourselves need deliverance from under the law you say you keep....

[SivartM]

I'm not claiming to keep the law perfectly. I don't think anyone else here has. That does not give you the right to play God by pretending that you know our inner selves.

If you have a message from God, at least try to be nice.

[Robert]

You appear to be thinking there are two possibilities:

a.It's OK to live in sin.

b.Otherwise you must be perfect.

All of us are living in sin in someway....Who are you kidding? The question is do you enjoy sin? No converted person will in his mind love sin - the love of self...self-seeking.

Yes, in the flesh we enjoy sin...but that's the flesh. However in our minds...our hearts we rejoice that Christ has delivered us from under law...not so we could enjoy sin, but because we all, without exception, are falling short of God' love as seen in the life of Christ. To be under law is death or as Paul said, "the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone"....