What is the Gospel?

[Robert]

Not all Christians live for themselves-- many are primarily motivated to live for Christ and for others-- and therefore it is wrong to make a blanket accusation that a particular individual whom you don't even know is "still living for themselves"

That's ironic...where did they get their possessions? Living for someone else?

"Christ...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself" and in return He had nothing in a world dominated by self-interest.

[Robert]

Not so fast, Robert. It's a false gospel that requires people to have nothing.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

p:When one is born again, the law is written on the heart and mind, right? Being "bent-to-self" applies to the flesh, not the mind, right? We are to receive the "mind of Christ," a mind which was not bent to self. Christ took the same nature we have.

R:Then why are you still living for yourself?

What kind of response is this? Which of the statements I made are you disagreeing with?

I think you are equating having "the mind of Christ" with living His life. That's performance.

[Robert]

Quote:

p:Your idea is that to be under grace requires disobedience?

R:Okay, then love your neighbor as you love yourself. Get busy....Oh, you still have your stuff! Hmmm...you love self, huh?

Case closed.

Ok what? This was a yes/no question. "Ok" isn't an answer. Please respond to the question.

You are disobeying the spirit of the law if you are not denying self....There should be no self-seeking in your life. There should be no love of self, only agape.

[Robert]

Is it your contention that those who live for self will be happy in heaven?

Will you be happy in heaven even though there's been a lot of self-seeking and self-love in your life to this day? That should answer your question to me....

There is less self-seeking in my life, but I still retain self. I'm still bent-to-self...I don't really desire poverty and I know if I were free of all self-interest I would be under a bridge. But since I am under grace I stand complete "in Christ" even though in reality I am coming up short....

[Overaged]

quote=Overaged]Eccl 9:10 says that whatsoever our hands find to do we are to do it with all our might. Are you choosing to disobey this clear gospel teaching? /quote]

Wow, what a Holy Joe! This is the gospel? Man, you have lost it....Maybe the gospel of self.

No; it's not "holy Joe" it's

[Overaged]

quote=pnattmbtc]Is it your contention that those who live for self will be happy in heaven? /quote]

Will you be happy in heaven even though there's been a lot of self-seeking and self-love in your life to this day? That should answer your question to me....

Yes; I shall be very happy to see my self in heaven. :bible:

[mrsducky]

Originally Posted By: mrsducky

"Earn all you can, save all you can, give all you can." John Wesley

I quote Jesus...not John....

"Love your neighbor as yourself"

Quote:

Some God blesses with wealth and some He does not.

God is not partial....He doesn't treat folks differently. He loves all the same.

Quote:

It is not a sin to have wealth.

How did you get it? If through the love of self (self-seeking), yes that is iniquity. It is living for yourself. I'm telling you what the law requires. I mean SDA claim to be law keepers, right? Well, I'm giving you law, but what you guys do is water it down and make up all sorts of excuses.

You are right that God is impartial. That doesn't mean that He gives everyone the same regardless of their ability to handle the gift. Once again I refer you to the parable of the 10 Talents told by Jesus. What I'd like to know is where in the Bible you get the idea that in order to be a TRUE follower of Jesus you have to be "dirt poor?" (Perhaps you were thinking of a monastary life style.) I would like chapter and verse in context please. Thanks.

[Overaged]

I'm still bent-to-self...I don't really desire poverty and I know if I were free of all self-interest I would be under a bridge.

Maybe you have not met anyone who "lives under a bridge;" however, as one who worked downtown in a large city at night for 2 years; I met plenty of them - and many of them were not "free of self," they had nothing but "self interest." Your mathematics here does not fit at all. I guess that in the end, according to your theology, in order to be "ready" we can all just flock to the nearest bridge and meet with all the other hobo dudes for the ascension robe party.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Is it your contention that those who live for self will be happy in heaven?

Will you be happy in heaven even though there's been a lot of self-seeking and self-love in your life to this day? That should answer your question to me....

There is less self-seeking in my life, but I still retain self. I'm still bent-to-self...I don't really desire poverty and I know if I were free of all self-interest I would be under a bridge. But since I am under grace I stand complete "in Christ" even though in reality I am coming up short....

wow!! my brother!! i might be wrong but it seems like you are doing a job on yourself!! a major humdinger of a job!!

i would suggest you read the scriptures again and see just how many people God asked to give away all their possessions!!

that does not mean that many didnt end up "giving" themselves into poverty, or perhaps having it taken from them through persecution.

we are to give up our picture of what a "christian" is and trying to live up to it, and allow the HS to mold us according to His will...

[mrsducky]

Amen!

[Robert]

What I'd like to know is where in the Bible you get the idea that in order to be a TRUE follower of Jesus you have to be "dirt poor?"

“The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.' Those who follow him must share his poverty."

If, like Christ, you "thought not, planned not, lived not, for" yourself then you would experience "His poverty". If your can't reason that out, well, you nature has you deceived.

The reason you are not "dirt poor" is because you spent a lot of time thinking, planning and living for yourself. Oh sure, you share, but you love yourself and your neighbor. The law demands that you love your neighbor as you naturally by birth love yourself. There's only one command.

When you and others take God's Holy law (as quoted above) and say it commands us to love self and our neighbor, you have brought God's law down to sinful mankind's level and have perverted it. There's no self in agape.

So either you are failing to live the law or you are under grace. Which? Because I can tell you right now you are not fulfilling the law as did Christ.

[Robert]

Maybe you have not met anyone who "lives under a bridge;" however, as one who worked downtown in a large city at night for 2 years; I met plenty of them - and many of them were not "free of self," they had nothing but "self interest."

I've already covered this....You need to get out more.

If you are poor because of living a selfless life that's one thing, but just to say you are righteous because you are poor is quite another.

[Robert]

how many people God asked to give away all their possessions!!

God doesn't have problem with possessions....It's how you get them....Here on this world it is through the love of self and self-seeking. That's sin...."In heaven none will think of self , nor seek their own pleasure [i.e., own way]; but all, from pure, genuine love [agape], will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132]

Do you know what that phrase "none will think of self" means? It means just as "Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself" you will do the same. But that's in heaven where only agape rules....In this world under it's god, self rules....Christians are less self-seeking, but the law doesn't make that distinction. According to the law "there is none righteous, no, not even one."

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

p:When one is born again, the law is written on the heart and mind, right? Being "bent-to-self" applies to the flesh, not the mind, right? We are to receive the "mind of Christ," a mind which was not bent to self. Christ took the same nature we have.

R:Then why are you still living for yourself?

p:What kind of response is this? Which of the statements I made are you disagreeing with?

R:I think you are equating having "the mind of Christ" with living His life. That's performance.

A mind is obviously not performance. You're still not being responsive. I wrote:

Quote:

When one is born again, the law is written on the heart and mind, right? Being "bent-to-self" applies to the flesh, not the mind, right? We are to receive the "mind of Christ," a mind which was not bent to self. Christ took the same nature we have.

And you responded, "Then why are you still living for yourself?"

What kind of response is this? Do you disagree with any of the things I wrote? You write, "then," which indicates your reaching a conclusion based on some sort of reasoning. What's the reasoning?

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

p:Your idea is that to be under grace requires disobedience?

R:Okay, then love your neighbor as you love yourself. Get busy....Oh, you still have your stuff! Hmmm...you love self, huh?

Case closed.

p:Ok what? This was a yes/no question. "Ok" isn't an answer. Please respond to the question.

R:You are disobeying the spirit of the law if you are not denying self....There should be no self-seeking in your life. There should be no love of self, only agape.

Yes, of course. Your idea is that to be under grace requires disobedience? You are so evasive, it's difficult to follow the thread. I don't remember the context of my question anymore. Why don't you answer the questions the first time they're asked. Also, you don't include the context of things in your quotes. You just take little snippets with no context. It doesn't seem that you're interested in a real discussion at all.

[pnattmbtc]

p:Is it your contention that those who live for self will be happy in heaven?

R:Will you be happy in heaven even though there's been a lot of self-seeking and self-love in your life to this day? That should answer your question to me....

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

“'The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.' Those who follow him must share his poverty."

“If any man will come after me,” he declares, “let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.” “So shall ye be my disciples.”

It is submission to sin that brings the great unhappiness of the soul. It is not poverty, but disobedience, that lessens man’s hope of gaining eternal life, which the Saviour came to bring him. True riches, true peace, true content, enduring happiness,—these are found only in entire surrender to God, in perfect reconciliation to his will.

Christ came to our world to live a life of stainless purity, thus to show sinners that in his strength they, too, can obey God’s holy precepts, the laws of his kingdom. He came to magnify the law and make it honorable by his perfect conformity to its principles. He united humanity and divinity, that fallen human beings might become partakers of the divine nature, and thus escape the corruption that is in the world through lust.

It was from the Father that Christ constantly drew the power that enabled him to keep his life free from spot or stain of sin. It was this power that enabled him to resist temptation.(RH 7/4/12)

This is the article following the quote in question.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Christ came to this world to live a life of perfect obedience to the laws of God’s kingdom. He came to uplift and ennoble human beings, to work out an enduring righteousness for them. He came as a medium through which truth was to be imparted. In him are found all the excellencies necessary to absolute perfection of character. To those who receive him, he gives power to become the sons of God. “The word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, ... full of grace and truth.... And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”

In Christ “we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins.” He is “the image of the invisible God, the first-born of every creature.” “By him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: and he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the first-born from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; and, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

“And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: if ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven.”

Christ gave up his high command in the heavenly courts, and laying aside his royal robe and kingly crown, he clothed his divinity with humanity. For our sake he became poor in earthly riches and advantages, that human beings might be rich in the eternal weight of glory. He took his place at the head of the human family, and consented to endure in our behalf the trials and temptations that sin has brought. He might have come in power and great glory, escorted by a multitude of heavenly angels. But no; he came in humility, of lowly parentage. He was brought up in an obscure and despised village. He lived a life of poverty, and suffered often with privation and hunger. This he did to show that earthly riches and high rank do not increase the value of souls in the sight of God. He has given us no encouragement to think that riches make men worthy of eternal life. Those church-members who, when a brother becomes poor, treat him as if he were unworthy of their notice certainly did not learn this from Christ. To one who, during the Saviour’s ministry, offered to follow him as his disciple, Jesus said, “The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.” Those who follow him must share his poverty.

This is preceding.

It's an odd interpretation that would conclude that this means we should live under a bridge.

[mrsducky]

Originally Posted By: mrsducky

What I'd like to know is where in the Bible you get the idea that in order to be a TRUE follower of Jesus you have to be "dirt poor?"

“The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.' Those who follow him must share his poverty."

I think you must look at the context of this verse. Jesus was talking to someone who was impressed with His miracles and wanted to hang out with him because of them.

Luke 19:12-25 says to occupy till Jesus comes. Look what happened to the unfaithful servant in this passage--the one who was dirt poor. Job wasn't poor. Abraham wasn't poor either. God honored both of these men by His presence and wealth. It was their characters that mattered and God could trust them with wealth. Look at the story of Jacob.

Me thinks you are carrying your argument in a sack with holes in it my friend!

[Woody]

Quote:

God honored both of these men by His presence and wealth.

I would just make the point that Jesus honored many men who had evil deeds. ANd yes he honored them with wealth despite their evil actions that were contrary to the Law. They failed the law ... but they DO have a redeemer.

However ... if you want to obey as Christ did in order to fulfill the Law ... we would have to do as Robert has stated.

Either we completely fulfill the law as Christ did ... or we accept him in our place and as our Redeemer.

The sack of potatoes is intact and in good condition.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

However ... if you want to obey as Christ did in order to fulfill the Law ... we would have to do as Robert has stated.

This is a ridiculous argument. This is the argument Catholics use for celibacy. Jesus Christ was celibate, so if one wishes to be holy, one must be celibate.

Christ worked most of His life. He had a home most of His life. It is grossest order of fanaticism to think that obeying the law means you mustn't work or have a home.

[pnattmbtc]

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To every man is given "his work" (Mark 13:34), the work for which his capabilities adapt him, the work which will result in greatest good to himself and to his fellow men, and in greatest honor to God. {Ed 138.1}

Thus our business or calling is a part of God's great plan, and, so long as it is conducted in accordance with His will, He Himself is responsible for the results. "Laborers together with God" (1 Corinthians 3:9), our part is faithful compliance with His directions. Thus there is no place for anxious care. Diligence, fidelity, caretaking, thrift, and discretion are called for. Every faculty is to be exercised to its highest capacity. But the dependence will be, not on the successful outcome of our efforts, but on the promise of God. The word that fed Israel in the desert, and sustained Elijah through the time of famine, has the same power today. "Be not therefore anxious (R.V.), saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? . . . Seek ye first the kingdom of God, and His righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matthew 6:31-33. {Ed 138.2}

He who gives men power to get wealth has with the gift bound up an obligation. Of all that we acquire He claims a specified portion. The tithe is the Lord's. "All the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree," "the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, . . . shall be holy unto the Lord." Leviticus 27:30, 32. The pledge made by Jacob at Bethel shows the extent of the obligation. "Of all that Thou shalt give me," he said, "I will surely give the tenth unto Thee." Genesis 28:22. {Ed 138.3}

"Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse" (Malachi 3:10), is God's command. No appeal is made to gratitude

or to generosity. This is a matter of simple honesty. The tithe is the Lord's; and He bids us return to Him that which is His own. {Ed 138.4}

"It is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful." 1 Corinthians 4:2. If honesty is an essential principle of business life, must we not recognize our obligation to God--the obligation that underlies every other? {Ed 139.1}

By the terms of our stewardship we are placed under obligation, not only to God, but to man. To the infinite love of the Redeemer every human being is indebted for the gifts of life. Food and raiment and shelter, body and mind and soul--all are the purchase of His blood. And by the obligation of gratitude and service thus imposed, Christ has bound us to our fellow men. He bids us, "By love serve one another." Galatians 5:13. "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these My brethren, ye have done it unto Me." Matthew 25:40. {Ed 139.2}emphasis mine.

God gives men the power to obtain wealth, and with that gift comes an obligation, to return to God what is His, and to bless one another. EGW's teaching was not that working to earn money was contrary to the law. The law condemns selfishness, not labor.

[John317]

Quote:

Woody: I would just make the point that Jesus honored many men who had evil deeds. ANd yes he honored them with wealth despite their evil actions that were contrary to the Law.

There are two major powers in the world: God and Satan. Satan also "blesses" people with wealth. I don't think we can assume that if someone is wealthy, it's because of God. God never rewards evil actions with wealth, but Satan often does.

The devil knows Jesus' teaching that people with wealth have an extremely difficult time getting into the kingdom of heaven. To the degree that it makes it hard to be saved, wealth is not a true blessing.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

Maybe you have not met anyone who "lives under a bridge;" however, as one who worked downtown in a large city at night for 2 years; I met plenty of them - and many of them were not "free of self," they had nothing but "self interest."

I've already covered this....You need to get out more.

If you are poor because of living a selfless life that's one thing, but just to say you are righteous because you are poor is quite another.

But Robert; some people have gotten rich living a "selfless life."