What is the Gospel?

[teresaq]

actually robert, i am in abject poverty at the moment...but im thinking that does not mean i have the mind of Christ.... :)

[Robert]

Another application of your error in logic is we should all be carpenters because Jesus Christ was a carpenter.

Jesus, as a young man, helped his dad. His dad was a carpenter.

Jesus was poor because He never lived for himself. He didn't use His education to bring wealth to Himself. He never lived for Himself because then He would be a sinner bent-to-self. Jesus, as the Bible states, was "servant of all". He lived to serve, not to be served.

You apparently have used your bent-to-self to bring you wealth. That's sin in the eyes of the law. The essence of all sin is selfishness.

Here's Jack:

Everyone of us has gone astray, since we have all turned or bent “to his own way.” This own-way-ness (i.e., self-centeredness) is synonymous with iniquity, which was laid upon Christ our sin bearer; and it was this “sin in the flesh” that Christ “condemned” on the cross [Romans 8:2-3].

Iniquity, therefore, is simply seeking our own way, a condition we are born with and which (without a Saviour) makes it impossible to do genuine righteousness, since the law of God requires even our motives to be pure [Matthew 5:20-22, 27-28]. In contrast to iniquity or self-seeking is agape (divine love) which is of God and which “seeketh not her own” [1 Corinthians 13:5].

[Robert]

actually robert, i am in abject poverty at the moment...but im thinking that does not mean i have the mind of Christ....

Did you get that way because you lived only for others?

Of course just because a person is poor doesn't mean he/she is righteous.

[Robert]

Robert, you're just repeating the same bad logic.

Anyway, she asked you a yes/no question. Is your answer no, you don't see as a possibility that Christ through the Holy Spirit is able to change our minds into the likeness of Christ?

The problem is not the HS...it is us. As Christ said, "the flesh is weak, but the Spirit is willing."

The last generation of Christians that go through the time of trouble will apparently "love not their lives even unto death". Their faith is only in Christ for their ticket to heaven. They are not depending on anything they or God does through them to gain heaven because they have it "in Christ". However, since the are depending solely on Christ for their survival (water, food, protection & salvation) they have fully given up and let Christ have their lives. In so doing they will (although they will not be aware of it) experience Christ's agape to its fullest.

"Self-love, self-interest, must perish. And the law of self-sacrifice is the law of self-preservation."

“Their earthliness [love of self, self-seeking] must be removed that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected.”

[Robert]

Robert, you're just repeating the same bad logic.

No sir, it is your logic that is bad....

[pnattmbtc]

p:Robert, you're just repeating the same bad logic.

R:No sir, it is your logic that is bad....

Well, you're amusing!

Not everyone can think logically, so that could be the problem here. It makes it difficult to carry on a conversation in a format like this, however.

In addition to the logic being bad, you also seem to be rather tunnel-visioned and inflexible. What I mean is, you seem to have difficulty viewing how someone else sees something. You just see how you see something, and remember how you used to see it, and think that's all there is in the world. So anything that doesn't agree with your present view, you categorize in your mind as being equivalent to your previous view, which you see (most likely correctly) as legalism.

What seems clear to me is you're not seeing is that there are other views than just ones you presently have or have had. I think rather than labeling anything that is different than how you think as a "legalist," or "hypocrite," it would be more prudent to try to understand what others are saying. A way to test if you're successfully able to do this is to state what the view of another is, and see if they agree with you, "Yes, that's what I believe."

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

actually robert, i am in abject poverty at the moment...but im thinking that does not mean i have the mind of Christ....

Did you get that way because you lived only for others?

Of course just because a person is poor doesn't mean he/she is righteous.

robert could you stay in the line of the discussion instead of steering the discussion away from the points brought up?

i would like it if you addressed the points and question i asked, but if you dont wish to that is ok, frustrating, but ok.

[karl]

The problem is not the HS. As Christ said, "the flesh is weak, but the Spirit is willing."

I disagree with the way you have rearranged and added a capital to these words of Christ, Robert.

King James Bible

Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)

Stay awake, and pray that you won't be tempted. You want to do what's right, but you're weak."

[Robert]

robert could you stay in the line of the discussion instead of steering the discussion away from the points brought up?

The subject is the gospel, but you present "another" gospel that only allows for those who are fitted for heaven....The reason I branch off is to try to convince you that according to your theology you are not fitted for heaven when compared to Christ's selfless life. Instead of admitting it you continue with your self-righteous gospel.

[Robert]

Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

It could be read both ways.....The Spirit is resisted by human nature....If we do give the Spirit complete access in temptation human nature wins.

Or you could read it like Romans 7, i.e., the spirit (the inner man) is indeed ready to do what is right, but the flesh pulls him another way. If the Spirit is not given the will the flesh wins....Either way.

[Robert]

Well, you're amusing!

Your nature is showing....

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Well, you're amusing!

Your nature is showing....

When you use terms like "BS" to describe what you think of someone else's opinion that you disagree with; you show a bit of your nature too. (unless that stands for "Bad Stuff" )

Robert; I would like to see you show us a Bible text that specifically says we must be financially poor, in order to be "selfless."

[Robert]

Robert; I would like to see you show us a Bible text that specifically says we must be financially poor, in order to be "selfless."

It's too late...you've already have a history of loving self...living for self. But, to answer your question, "You shall love your neighbor as you love yourself"

[Robert]

When you use terms like "BS" to describe what you think of someone else's opinion that you disagree with; you show a bit of your nature too. (unless that stands for "Bad Stuff" )

Baloney sandwich.

[pnattmbtc]

p:Well, you're amusing!

p:Your nature is showing....

It is amusing. You use bad logic, and respond to that with ad hominem, and when that's pointed out, you just do it some more. All without addressing any of the logical problems.

And you keep ducking questions. Instead of answering questions, you call people names.

[pnattmbtc]

R:The last generation of Christians that go through the time of trouble will apparently "love not their lives even unto death". Their faith is only in Christ for their ticket to heaven.

Their faith is in Christ that He may be honored and glorified, not that they can have a "ticket to heaven." They "love not their lives even unto death" (the second death). That is, they, like Moses ("blot me out of your book") or Christ (who could not see through the portals of the tomb) are not concerned about their own salvation, but with the honor and glory of He who left heaven, at the risk of failure and eternal loss, in order to save us.

[pnattmbtc]

p:Robert, I think I've asked you at least a dozen times if you think that one could be happy in heaven with a character not in harmony with God or His principles. You keep not answering this question. Why is this?

R:Sure I answered....I quoted Romans 7:22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

Robert; I would like to see you show us a Bible text that specifically says we must be financially poor, in order to be "selfless."

It's too late...you've already have a history of loving self...living for self. But, to answer your question, "You shall love your neighbor as you love yourself"

My; I didn't know that about my "history." You are informative!

Now lets see here; you say that I must "love my neighbor as myself;" well I really love myself. Therefore, I can love my neighbor immensely; in just the way Jesus tells us to. The more I love myself; the more I can love others, and be holy.

Robert; are you sure you don't wear a pair of those red shoes like the Pope?

[Overaged]

This isn't the question I'm asking. I'm asking if you think one could be happy in heaven with a character not in harmony with God or His principles. I'm not asking about performance, but character.

Well; as a general comment, I would say that the way you and some others phrase it when you talk about "character" does seem to insinuate the performance/behavior aspect that concern has been expressed with here.

"Nothing but the blood of Jesus; I think, clears up this difficulty - and yet, there is still a lot of deception and confusion coming out about the gospel, and how "character" relates to it. Liberals cry foul because of the "behavior" card, and conservatives drag everyone down by the way they fight back.

Why; after so many pages of this thread is there even more confusion about the gospel than there was in the OP?

[Twilight]

What I mean is, you seem to have difficulty viewing how someone else sees something. You just see how you see something, and remember how you used to see it, and think that's all there is in the world. So anything that doesn't agree with your present view, you categorize in your mind as being equivalent to your previous view, which you see (most likely correctly) as legalism.

What seems clear to me is you're not seeing is that there are other views than just ones you presently have or have had. I think rather than labeling anything that is different than how you think as a "legalist," or "hypocrite," it would be more prudent to try to understand what others are saying.

I agree. :-)

[Robert]

Their faith is in Christ that He may be honored and glorified, not that they can have a "ticket to heaven."

Again, you misunderstand. They have the assurance of salvation based on what Christ did 2000 years ago. That issue is settled because the gospel has been completely retored.....

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

p:Robert, I think I've asked you at least a dozen times if you think that one could be happy in heaven with a character not in harmony with God or His principles. You keep not answering this question. Why is this?

R:Sure I answered....I quoted Romans 7:22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.

That's not an answer.

Quote:

That's the mind that has written in it God's agape. If you delight in God's agape you will be happy in heaven even though in performance you might be failing.....

This isn't the question I'm asking. I'm asking if you think one could be happy in heaven with a character not in harmony with God or His principles. I'm not asking about performance, but character.

I've answered....

[Robert]

My; I didn't know that about my "history." You are informative!

[pnattmbtc]

Now lets see here; you say that I must "love my neighbor as myself;" well I really love myself. Therefore, I can love my neighbor immensely; in just the way Jesus tells us to. The more I love myself; the more I can love others, and be holy.

You may have been being tongue-in-cheek here, but to "love your neighbor as yourself" means "love your neighbor in the place of yourself" not "love your neighbor like you love yourself."

[pnattmbtc]

p:This isn't the question I'm asking. I'm asking if you think one could be happy in heaven with a character not in harmony with God or His principles. I'm not asking about performance, but character.

O:Well; as a general comment, I would say that the way you and some others phrase it when you talk about "character" does seem to insinuate the performance/behavior aspect that concern has been expressed with here.