What is the Gospel?

[Robert]

Is using God's Spirit to do good and to resist and overcome sin a bad thing in your mind?

For you personally? No, but when you insist that others do as you do (keep the commandments) that is a bad thing.

[Robert]

The righteous will receive new bodies and new brains, but not new characters or personalities. We make our characters by God's help now. That's the reason God gives us this probationary time that we have right now. We need to take advantage of it. Christ taught this truth in many of his parables.

Baloney! That would mean that imperfection would enter heaven and we know that's a lie! If the mind has been renewed...if the inner man delights in God's love vs Lucifer's love of self then your heart and nature are no longer in agreement.

[Robert]

even the sinless angels and unfallen humans can improve and learn and become more like God

If you mean in knowledge fine, but if you mean in the area of righteousness, wrong! We will be as righteous as God is righteous. Again, no sin in heaven.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

p:Our character does not change at death or resurrection.

R:At the resurrection we receive a glorified humanity indwelt with agape. All things will be new.

Agape does not indwell the flesh, but the mind. The flesh is what changes at the resurrection, not the mind. We need the mind of Christ now.

Agape dwells in the inner man - in our spirit (the inner mind). As to our nature - we are conceived in inquity - we are born bent-to-self. Paul tells us that this law (like the law of gravity) is in our "members" - in our body.

"Through sin the whole human organism is deranged, the mind is perverted, the imagination corrupted. Sin has degraded the faculties of the soul. Temptations from without find an answering chord within the heart, and the feet turn imperceptibly toward evil." [EGW]

At the resurrection we receive everything new. The mind is not longer controlled & tempted by iniquity because our bent-to-self died when we died our 1st death. "All things have become new" at the resurrection. Hence in heaven "none will think of self". All will seek not after their prosperity, but another's wealth. We will live to serve those around us.

[pnattmbtc]

Please read what I wrote, and respond to what I've actually said.

Well; I guess we are even then? You could have just answered my question too when I asked you re the pigweeds...(btw, Pigweeds" grow here in Canada in many gardens where they are not wanted.) Kind of like all those sins you keep talking about and how we need to get rid of them.

[pnattmbtc]

Umm; I already said that when I said "the true gospel is that God is just; and the Justifier;" just how does that not "go far enough?"

I explained why in my comments. Also I've written several detailed posts in this thread regarding God's character and the Gospel. Please look for the answer to your question there.

You'll see that my post was saying I liked what you wrote. I wasn't trying to be critical of what you said so much as trying to communicate something I've been trying to get across.

You seem to be taking any negative comment as an attack. I understand the limitations of the internet, but please read my posts as an attempt to communicate ideas. I'm not trying to attack you or Woody or anyone else.

[pnattmbtc]

p:Agape does not indwell the flesh, but the mind. The flesh is what changes at the resurrection, not the mind. We need the mind of Christ now.

P:Agape dwells in the inner man - in our spirit (the inner mind).

[Robert]

Right. Not in the flesh.

"Flesh" in Paul's writing is "sarx" - sinful humanity indwelt with sin. As Paul say, "sin dwelling me"

[Robert]

Christ also took sinful flesh, just as we have.

Yes, but He took what by Divine right wasn't His. We have a sinful nature...it is ours....He took or assumed what was not His so that "in Him" humanity would stand perfectly righteous when all was said and done.

[Robert]

Not a new mind (better brain though; hallelujah for that).

The mind, or course, isn't a tangible thing. At "the new birth" our minds have the principle of agape written in them. This is our fitment for heaven.

[pnattmbtc]

p:Right. Not in the flesh.

R:"Flesh" in Paul's writing is "sarx" - sinful humanity indwelt with sin. As Paul say, "sin dwelling me"

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

Umm; I already said that when I said "the true gospel is that God is just; and the Justifier;" just how does that not "go far enough?"

I explained why in my comments. Also I've written several detailed posts in this thread regarding God's character and the Gospel. Please look for the answer to your question there.

When I stated that "he is Just and the Justifier;" I am quoting Rom 3:26, and when the Bible says He is Just, that defines His character quite well; so again, how does the Bible not go far enough, as you say it does not? Your "detailed posts" do not give a clear answer to this question.

[Overaged]

Right. Not in the flesh. This happens now. Our characters will not change at death or the resurrection. Just our flesh. So agape needs to become a part of our experience now.

If we do not love God or His principles, how could we be happy in heaven? We couldn't, right? I know I've asked this question many times, but I can't recall your having answered it. Do you agree that if we do not love God or His principles (the principles of agape) that we couldn't be happy in heaven?

Does anyone here know what "agape" is? Agape love is unconditional love, I see a lot of conditions here. Part of the gospel is that God will take us just as we are; and that He will give us the assurance of resurrection power, both in this life, and the next, Therefore, His second coming; His being Just and the Justifier, is the only gospel we need. not our behavior and how many things we "obey." The "not being happy in heaven" ruse is just another way of dealing a false hand to people that in some way, they can sneak a little correct behavior into the equation to gain some measure of merit before Christ.

[pnattmbtc]

p:Christ also took sinful flesh, just as we have.

R:Yes, but He took what by Divine right wasn't His. We have a sinful nature...it is ours....He took or assumed what was not His so that "in Him" humanity would stand perfectly righteous when all was said and done.

[Overaged]

Quote:

If you can prove me wrong from the Bible; I would like to see it.

I'm not really interested in "proving you wrong." The first thing I'd be interested in is your reading what I actually write, and considering it. You seem intent on proving I'm wrong. Perhaps that's a problem. Please listen with an open mind to what I'm saying, before judging it. Please try to hear what I'm actually saying.

It's a bit frustrating to see you writing the things you are which are misrepresenting what I'm saying.

Regarding the philosophical quote, that's one of my favorite quotes. This *is* something I've been saying, as it gets to the importance of understanding God's character. This is what I've been saying is of primary importance.

What I am saying is that what you keep writing about "God's principles" really boils down to the lowest common denominator of gospel by obedience, for this is where your posts must lead. Who knows what this thread is even about any more, with everyone posting their own brand of "gospel." Catholic apologists have a field day with such things.

[pnattmbtc]

p:Not a new mind (better brain though; hallelujah for that).

R:The mind, or course, isn't a tangible thing.

[pnattmbtc]

When I stated that "he is Just and the Justifier;" I am quoting Rom 3:26,

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

When I stated that "he is Just and the Justifier;" I am quoting Rom 3:26,

Yes, of course I recognized that.

Quote:

and when the Bible says He is Just, that defines His character quite well;

that's not all the Bible says regarding God's character. Also knowing what justice is in Scripture, which is almost completely not understood (it's commonly understood as retributive instead of restorative or distributive, which is the Biblical idea) needs to be taken into account to understand what Paul had in mind in saying God was just (or righteous; same word in the Greek).

If the Bible says He is "Just" that covers EVERYTHING else that could ever be said about Him; it all comes under that main heading. That does cover it quite well.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

What I am saying is that what you keep writing about "God's principles" really boils down to the lowest common denominator of gospel by obedience, for this is where your posts must lead.

No, this is wrong. This is not what I'm saying, and this is not a correct conclusion.

Please read what I quoted from Waggoner. Perhaps this will give us some meeting ground.

Quote:

Who knows what this thread is even about any more, with everyone posting their own brand of "gospel." Catholic apologists have a field day with such things.

Well, we're all individuals, with our minds. We each understand and communicate truth differently.

I think we would all agree that the Gospel is the Good News about how God solved some problem. If we disagree about what the problem is that God solved, that will lead us to communicating the Gospel differently.

As I've explained, I understand our fundamental problem (and the threat that encompassed the entire universe and comprises the thrust of the Great Controversy) to be a misunderstanding of God's character. The Good News is how God solved this problem.

I'm really not understanding how you would categorize this conceptualization of the gospel into keeping on getting rid of sins and being an obedience oriented gospel. It's not. Obedience is the fruit of faith. I assume you'd agree to this. I haven't been addressing obedience as the fundamental problem at all. Disobedience is a symptom of a deeper problem. It's that deeper problem that needs to be dealt with.

[pnattmbtc]

If the Bible says He is "Just" that covers EVERYTHING else that could ever be said about Him; it all comes under that main heading. That does cover it quite well.

Above all, God is agape. That's His defining characteristic. God's justice, or righteousness, must be understood in the context of agape.

[John317]

Quote:

Overaged: Your post is confusing to say the least. First, you say that "The problem is when people look into their own lives and can't see any evidence that Christ or the Spirit are REAL;" and then all of a sudden you ask me if I believe Ellen G White was a true prophet of God. What has that got to do with it? How does that tie in with the subject at hand?

I should have asked the question on a separate post because I didn't mean to imply that there was a direct relationship between the first part of the post and that question about Ellen White.

In the first part of that post, which you quote from, I'm talking about the importance of allowing God to direct our paths because our knowledge of God's presence and activity in our lives is proof to us that He is real and that He loves us. It's from our daily walk with the Lord that the Bible says we get our confidence in Christ.

The kind of confidence (or faith) that will see us through to the end-- through persecution and suffering, when it will seem at times that God has deserted us-- is based on a personal relationship with Christ, not based primarily on an intellectual assent to what the Bible says. There will be many lost who knew the facts of what the Bible teaches, but they failed to allow the Holy Spirit to make a practical and personal application of those truths to their actual lives.

These are just some of the verses in 1 John that I would draw your attention to:

1 John 2:4-5

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

1 John 3:19-24

And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. [20] For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. [21] Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. [22] And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. [23] And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. [24] And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1 John 4:11-13

Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. [12] No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. [13] Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

1 John 4:16-17

And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. [17] Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness [confidence]in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

NOTE: This last phrase may be translated, "because we are living in this world as He lives." Phillips translates it, "for we realize that our life in this world is actually his life lived in us." Compare this with Gal. Galatians 2:20--

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

1 John 5:1-2

Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. [2] By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

There are many other good verses on the same theme in the rest of chapter 5.

Our confidence in Christ, then, does not come primarily from the fact that years ago we accepted Christ. Many people will be lost who claimed they once accepted Christ. Our primary confidence comes from the daily walk with Him and from seeing how He has led us since the time that we first accepted Christ. This is where the NT, and particularly 1 John, places the emphasis.

[Robert]

When we are converted, we have the principle of agape written in our hearts and mind.

The man of Romans 7 has the law written in his heart.

[Robert]

This looks like you're thinking strictly in terms of a legal problem. But our problem isn't legal, it's real.

"In Christ" I have everything. My experience doesn't add to it. In Christ I have a new, glorified humanity that I will receive at the 2nd coming. I stand perfect in Him by faith!

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: John317

The righteous will receive new bodies and new brains, but not new characters or personalities. We make our characters by God's help now. That's the reason God gives us this probationary time that we have right now. We need to take advantage of it. Christ taught this truth in many of his parables.

Which parables are you thinking of?

You have no proof of this character perfectionism you preach...neither of you.

[Overaged]

I should have asked the question on a separate post because I didn't mean to imply that there was a direct relationship between the first part of the post and that question about Ellen White.

In the first part of that post, which you quote from, I'm talking about the importance of allowing God to direct our paths because our knowledge of God's presence and activity in our lives is proof to us that He is real and that He loves us. It's from our daily walk with the Lord that the Bible says we get our confidence in Christ.

The kind of confidence (or faith) that will see us through to the end-- through persecution and suffering, when it will seem at times that God has deserted us-- is based on a personal relationship with Christ, not based primarily on an intellectual assent to what the Bible says. There will be many lost who knew the facts of what the Bible teaches, but they failed to allow the Holy Spirit to make a practical and personal application of those truths to their actual lives.

Well; I guess I can understand somewhat, what you are trying to say about the gospel - I think that what has mostly happened on this thread is that people are talking about the gospel; but not really saying exactly what the gospel is. I am having problems accepting that we tend to use "measuring sticks" such as "character development," "obedience," or, even "agape" to determine if a person/if we, are "prepared" for salvation and heaven. All of these systems are bound to fail - perhaps if you consider that there are so many different definitions of all these "measuring sticks," you will see why.

The gospel has to be something that is indisputably recognized as same; and I don't think many of us really know what that is. Is it "the last message of obedience" "the last message of character development," or "the last message of agape?" No. It is "the last message of mercy."

What does this mean when we try to define the gospel?