What is the Gospel?

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

All I can say is praise God the Father beholds NOT our characters.

"So I will be your representative in heaven. The Father beholds not your faulty character, but He sees you as clothed in My perfection. " DA 357

This isn't dealing with this issue either. The quote above is dealing with our acceptance with God. It's speaking of *His* character. God is forgiveness personified. He is gracious, and in mercy considers us not according to our past, but in accordance with His graciousness.

However, one day we will die, and be resurrected. When resurrected, if our characters are such as described in the quote I cited, what will be the result? Here's the answer:

Quote:

No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place.

We should bear in mind that our characters do not change by death or by resurrection. That means if we would be happy in heaven after death, we must have characters such that we would be happy in heaven now, if we were suddenly transported there. That means characters that are in harmony with God and His principles.

Quote:

If you have become estranged and have failed to be Bible Christians, be converted; for the character you bear in probationary time will be the character you will have at the coming of Christ. If you would be a saint in heaven, you must first be a saint on earth. The traits of character you cherish in life will not be changed by death or by the resurrection. You will come up from the grave with the same disposition you manifested in your home and in society. Jesus does not change the character at His coming. The work of transformation must be done now. Our daily lives are determining our destiny. {AH 16.2}

This is not legalism, as it is not attempting to earn God's favor. We recognize that we have no goodness or righteousness of our own by which to claim anything from God. All that we have is a gift, ours by divine mercy and grace.

We should also bear in mind that the character isn't set by the occasional good deed or misdeed, but is revealed by the trend of the life. What is the desire of our heart?

[Woody]

I'll stick with the words of our prophet:

Quote:

"So I will be your representative in heaven. The Father beholds not your faulty character, but He sees you as clothed in My perfection. " DA 357

[Robert]

Your making the assumption here that victory over sin is only possible if one is perfect in oneself. That's hardly a valid assumption.

[Woody]

I agree with you Rob. The Law demands total perfection ... not just the "trend" of ones life. This theory that one is good enough because they tried hard or meant to do good ... is just not good enough. The Law IS the Law and it demands a life without sin. To dismiss this requirement is to excuse sin in our lives.

Thank you for making this clear. :)

[Robert]

"So I will be your representative in heaven. The Father beholds not your faulty character, but He sees you as clothed in My perfection. " DA 357

Bingo!

[Woody]

Thanks Rob. I do love seeing your 'Bingos'.

And Ellen White sure deserves a 'Bingo' on this one. :)

[Woody]

I also like these:

"Like Him. This points to the fulfillment of God's plan for fallen man -- restoration to the divine image...It is God's design to restore that similitude by giving man victory over sin and over every temptation. The restoration will be completed AT THE SECOND COMING." 7 BC 649

Perfection now is ours only in Christ, but the ultimate, all-comprehensive transformation of our lives into the image of God will take place at the Second Advent ...

Neither Christlike character traits nor faultess behaviour is the ground of our acceptance with God. Saving righteourness comes from the one righteous Man Jesus and is conveyed to us by the Holy Spirit. We can contribute nothing to Christ's gift of righteousness - we can only receive it. No one other than Christ is righteous; independent human righteousness is only filthy rags. " Seventh-Day Adventists Believe p. 145-6

[Robert]

"So I will be your representative in heaven. The Father beholds not your faulty character, but He sees you as clothed in My perfection. " DA 357

This isn't dealing with this issue either. The quote above is dealing with our acceptance with God. It's speaking of *His* character. God is forgiveness personified. He is gracious, and in mercy considers us not according to our past, but in accordance with His graciousness.

[John317]

Quote:

Woody: I'll stick with the words of our prophet:

"So I will be your representative in heaven. The Father beholds not your faulty character, but He sees you as clothed in My perfection. " DA 357

This is not an unconditional promise. There are conditions. One condition is that one is not deliberately practicing sin.

In other words, the condition is that I am being honest and sincere with God, not trying to use God's grace in order to enjoy sin. This is taught all through the Bible, and Ellen White concurs.

In the Investigative Judgment our characters-- the records of our lives-- are closely examined to see if we are really "in Christ." Our lives will tell-- they speak louder than our words.

If I claim with my mouth to be a follower of Christ, but I am continuing to cherish and deliberately practice sin, and I don't turly repent of it, my name will be blotted out of the Lamb's book of life.

[pnattmbtc]

I'll stick with the words of our prophet

[pnattmbtc]

p:Your making the assumption here that victory over sin is only possible if one is perfect in oneself. That's hardly a valid assumption.

R:Really..an assumption?

[pnattmbtc]

The law doesn't accept anything short of perfection. One sin counters any good you can do. That's because the law is not in the business of forgiveness.

The law is not the issue. The issue is our character. The judgment simply reveals the truth. It doesn't change anything. Either we have characters such that we would be happy in heaven, or we don't.

The key point is that our characters do not change at death or at the resurrection. The characters we develop now are the characters we will have when we are resurrected.

We do not build a Christ-like character of ourselves; that would be impossible. We construct a righteous character by faith, which is receiving favor from the hand of God as one needy and having no righteousness or goodness of oneself. We appreciate the love of God shining from the cross, which leads us to repentance.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: woody

I'll stick with the words of our prophet

Just selected words? Or all words?

Jesus Christ would be happy to represent anyone. But if we choose to rebel against God, it wouldn't do any good for Him to represent us, because we wouldn't be happy in heaven anyway.

Instead of the accusation of "selected words" as opposed to "all words," it needs to be recognized that Woody was not speaking to the issue of why we wouldn't be happy in heaven; he was actually replying to a different point. your comments therein are out of context and don't really accomplish what they otherwise could have.

Jesus does in fact represent even those who choose not to go to heaven, by their life and actions for he is their Judge too.

The gospel I am reading here is disappointing - it contains only behavior oriented "saving," and practice perfect Christianity; and not a word about the second coming. This is a central part of the gospel, and no one wants to talk about it here, and how it fits into this equation.

[John317]

Quote:

pnattmbtc: It needs to be pointed out that the issue not a lack of willingness on the part of Jesus Christ to be a representative. Jesus Christ would be happy to represent anyone. But if we choose to rebel against God, it wouldn't do any good for Him to represent us, because we wouldn't be happy in heaven anyway.

Yes, very important point.

It would be like wanting to live in heaven just because we don't want to die, but not loving Jesus enough to prepare to live with Him. In that case our life betrays our claim and God knows we would be miserable living where we couldn't practice our favorite sins. He doesn't drag our sins out of us if we want to keep them. He only takes them if we sincerely want Him to.

[Overaged]

It would be like wanting to live in heaven just because we don't want to die, but not loving Jesus enough to prepare to live with Him.

It's this "preparation" that is such a problem with so many in the Church; for with almost everyone we would ask, we get a different definition of it. How can we as a Church be clear on this "preparation" when no one can agree on exactly what it is?

In Christ, we are human beings - not doings. The gospel you describe only allows entry to heaven for those who do the right things. How can anyone ever keep up to that or have any assurance in Christ with such a Skinner's Box?

[John317]

Quote:

Overaged:

Jesus does in fact represent even those who choose not to go to heaven, by their life and actions for he is their Judge too.

As High Priest and defense attorney, Jesus won't lose a single case. If Christ takes a believer's case, that believer is sure to be victorious.

But Christ doesn't take the cases of those who show by their life, actions and words that they don't want to go to heaven. For them Christ is only Judge.

Quote:

Overaged: The gospel I am reading here is disappointing - it contains only behavior oriented "saving," and practice perfect Christianity; and not a word about the second coming. This is a central part of the gospel, and no one wants to talk about it here, and how it fits into this equation.

Yes, the second coming is central, and that it tied directly to the Investigative Judgment. How can we expect to be ready for Christ to come if we're living as if we expect all the change in our character to occur at the Second Coming? Now is the time to make any changes, and that can only be done through the power and guidance of the Holy Spirit. If we wait until just before Christ comes, it will be too late.

[Woody]

Quote:

Instead of the accusation of "selected words" as opposed to "all words," it needs to be recognized that Woody was not speaking to the issue of why we wouldn't be happy in heaven; he was actually replying to a different point. your comments therein are out of context and don't really accomplish what they otherwise could have.

Jesus does in fact represent even those who choose not to go to heaven, by their life and actions for he is their Judge too.

The gospel I am reading here is disappointing - it contains only behavior oriented "saving," and practice perfect Christianity; and not a word about the second coming. This is a central part of the gospel, and no one wants to talk about it here, and how it fits into this equation.

Thanks Overaged. Good Points. The Second coming is critical to a clear understanding. My pastor just preached on this topic. And it is SO beautiful. It is where it all happens praise God. We should study it more.

[pnattmbtc]

Regarding the question of what the topic, what the Gospel is, I believe the Gospel was eloquently summed up by Jesus Christ when He said, "When you've seen Me, you've seen the Father."

The power of the enemy is obtained by misrepresenting God's character.

Quote:

Lucifer, the covering cherub, desired to be first in heaven. He sought to gain control of heavenly beings, to draw them away from their Creator, and to win their homage to himself. Therefore he misrepresented God, attributing to Him the desire for self-exaltation. With his own evil characteristics he sought to invest the loving Creator. Thus he deceived angels. Thus he deceived men.(DA 21)

The power of deception was obtained by misrepresenting God's character. This is what led men into bondage. The truth about God sets us free from this bondage (if we believe it).

Quote:

Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. In Christ was arrayed before men the paternal grace and the matchless perfections of the Father. In his prayer just before his crucifixion, he declared, "I have manifested thy name." "I have glorified thee on the earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do." When the object of his mission was attained,--the revelation of God to the world,--the Son of God announced that his work was accomplished, and that the character of the Father was made manifest to men.(ST 1/20/90)

The "whole purpose" of Christ's mission was "the revelation of God" that men might be set right.

Quote:

The very attributes that belonged to the character of Satan, the evil one represented as belonging to the character of God. Jesus came to teach men of the Father, to correctly represent him before the fallen children of earth. Angels could not fully portray the character of God, but Christ, who was a living impersonation of God, could not fail to accomplish the work. The only way in which he could set and keep men right was to make himself visible and familiar to their eyes. (ibid.)

Men are set right (justified) and kept right (sanctified) by Christ's making Himself visible and familiar to their eyes (John 1:18).

This theme is present in Scripture, presented particularly clearly by John, who influenced the above texts (in particular, John 17, around verses 3-7, and John 1:18). This theme can be seen through John's Gospel, and his epistles. (The other Gospels present the theme in the context of "the Kingdom of God" or "the kingdom of heaven." It's there as well, but a bit harder to see than in John.)

[John317]

Quote:

Overaged:In Christ, we are human beings - not doings. The gospel you describe only allows entry to heaven for those who do the right things. How can anyone ever keep up to that or have any assurance in Christ with such a Skinner's Box?

I'm talking about the same gospel that is found in 1 John 1: 5 to 2: 6:

This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: John317

It would be like wanting to live in heaven just because we don't want to die, but not loving Jesus enough to prepare to live with Him.

It's this "preparation" that is such a problem with so many in the Church; for with almost everyone we would ask, we get a different definition of it. How can we as a Church be clear on this "preparation" when no one can agree on exactly what it is?

In Christ, we are human beings - not doings. The gospel you describe only allows entry to heaven for those who do the right things. How can anyone ever keep up to that or have any assurance in Christ with such a Skinner's Box?

Excellent post Overaged.

[Overaged]

Thanks Overaged. Good Points. The Second coming is critical to a clear understanding. My pastor just preached on this topic. And it is SO beautiful. It is where it all happens praise God. We should study it more.

One of the most important points about the second coming - and the gospel can best be described in the form of a question:

"What do you see in your "clouds?"

(see 1 Thes 4:13-18) it is interesting that the Bible says: "comfort one another with THESE WORDS." It doesn't say to comfort ourselves with all this character development mantra which has been so distorted.

Character development is NOT what we do; it is who we are. What we do or don't do (as in sinning or not sinning) is a result of our character, not the formation of it. The only context that character is within the gospel message is in proving God as Just and the Justifier; it does not save us. Jesus does. (see John 1:29) The true gospel is simply that God is "Just, and the Justifier" for them who believe in Jesus. This is what Satan has contested from the beginning and will continue till the very end - which is the second coming.

What do you see in your clouds?

[Woody]

AMEN BROTHER ... PREACH IT.

Sorry for shouting. But if this ain't somethin' to shout about ... I don't know what is.

Praise God brother.

[Overaged]

quote Overaged:In Christ, we are human beings - not doings. The gospel you describe only allows entry to heaven for those who do the right things. How can anyone ever keep up to that or have any assurance in Christ with such a Skinner's Box?/quote]

I'm talking about the same gospel that is found in 1 John 1: 5 to 2: 6:

This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Saying we have no sin, is obviously wrong; yet, we depend on "not sinning" to qualify for salvation? That's really odd math by anyone's standards.

Ceasing from sin does not automatically denote character. It would be a result of character; but this is not what forms it. What a false gospel; to sit around in your miracle chair at some church and think you are saved because you behaved.

[mrsducky]

Quote:

Woody: I'll stick with the words of our prophet:

"So I will be your representative in heaven. The Father beholds not your faulty character, but He sees you as clothed in My perfection. " DA 357

This is not an unconditional promise. There are conditions. One condition is that one is not deliberately practicing sin.

In other words, the condition is that I am being honest and sincere with God, not trying to use God's grace in order to enjoy sin. This is taught all through the Bible, and Ellen White concurs.

In the Investigative Judgment our characters-- the records of our lives-- are closely examined to see if we are really "in Christ." Our lives will tell-- they speak louder than our words.

If I claim with my mouth to be a follower of Christ, but I am continuing to cherish and deliberately practice sin, and I don't turly repent of it, my name will be blotted out of the Lamb's book of life.

I agree with what you say. This is really about making a daily choice to live in the presence of Jesus; to be like Mary sitting at His feet. That has to be at the root of this whole discussion! How can we continue to cherish sin if we daily choose to live in His presence? Doesn't that cause us to see sin in its true character?

[wayfinder]

We can not beg for, borrow, or steal righteousness. It is not a gift it is developed through the process of sanctification (gold, tried in the fire)and we certainly cannot hide in it (righteousness)

John 5:14 NAS

Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, "Behold, you have become well ; do not sin anymore, so that nothing worse happens to you."

Matthew 5:6 NAS

"Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

John 7:18 NAS

"He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory ; but He who is seeking the glory of the One who sent Him, He is true, and there is no unrighteousness in Him

These last two, fly in the face of a certain persons salvation theology. I love the covenant (Law) and do not find it too difficult to obey.

Isaiah 48:18 NAS

"If only you had paid attention to My commandments ! Then your well-being would have been like a river, And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.

Isaiah 42:21 NAS

The LORD was pleased for His righteousness' sake To make the law great and glorious.