What is the Gospel?

[pnattmbtc]

p:the Bible nowhere condemns having wealth.

R:Depends on how you get it....If through self-seeking it is sin.

[pnattmbtc]

p:As Ellen White correctly points out, the Bible nowhere condemns having wealth.

R:Ellen White isn't the final word....The Bible is!

[Robert]

Quote:

p:How do you jump from having wealth to self-seeking?

R:How did you gain your goodies? Lottery, a gift, a lot of hard work and savings?

What's the point of this question?

Back to Matt 19:19 YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." 20 The young man said to Him, "All these things I have done; what do I lack?" 21 Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be perfect [in agape], go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me [walk in my shoes]."

The law is summed up that you shall love your neighbor as you love yourself. There is only one command there, not two. It doesn't say you shall love your neighbor and you shall love yourself. It says to love your neighbor as you love yourself. In other words according to the law you are to take that self-love that you were born with (see Ps 51:5) and instead of having it bent back to yourself direct it out to your neighbor instead. Hence, in agape love, there's no thought of "self", but instead establishing your neighbor's wealth. Anything outside agape is sin. Like Jack says, "where you have self you have sin."

That's why I ask how you came by your wealth. It was either given to you or you loved yourself a lot to get your goodies....

[pnattmbtc]

That's why I ask how you came by your wealth. It was either given to you or you loved yourself a lot to get your goodies.

You're saying that the only a any person can obtain wealth is either:

a)It was given to the person.

b)The person loved himself a lot to get his goodies.

And the basis for your idea here is because of what Jesus Christ said to the Rich Young Man.

Your reasoning is that because Jesus Christ said a certain thing to a certain person in a certain circumstance that what was said applies universally to all people in all circumstances.

This is a logical fallacy. See "Fallacy of Accident" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy).

[pnattmbtc]

Please address the following question, Robert. My point was, and has been, that in order to be happy in heaven, one needs a character which is in harmony with God and His principles. Do you agree?

[Twilight]

in order to be happy in heaven, one needs a character which is in harmony with God and His principles.

Out of interest Pnat, do you have a scripture to justify this position?

I am not disagreeing, but asking if you can show this from scripture alone?

[pnattmbtc]

That's an interesting question, Mark. I'd have to think about it. The idea seems to follow logically from the concept that the character is not changed at death or the resurrection, so your question would boil to how one could show from Scripture that this is the case (that the character does not change).

[Twilight]

That's an interesting question, Mark. I'd have to think about it. The idea seems to follow logically from the concept that the character is not changed at death or the resurrection, so your question would boil to how one could show from Scripture that this is the case (that the character does not change).

I will be watching the thread with interest, if you do decide to have a go at that.

Maybe a new thread?

[pnattmbtc]

It's a good question. If you wanted to start a new thread, I think that would be a good idea.

The Bible doesn't use the word "character," but the concept is certainly there (e.g. the Hebrew concept of "name" or the word "glory" as used in John 17 or Deut. 32 "show me thy glory" where God proclaimed His character). Jesus said, "when you've seen me, you've seen the Father" which is dealing with character. Those are a couple of character related texts that come to mind.

But how to establish the concept from Scripture that the character doesn't change at death/resurrection. That's an interesting question.

[Twilight]

New thread here pnat:

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/361277.html#Post361277

Mark :-)

[Robert]

This is a logical fallacy. See "Fallacy of Accident" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy).

You are one of those guys who can't see the trees for the forest. All you legalists are the same....You push your perfectionism, but when someone adds to your list you water down the law. Hypocrite!

[Robert]

Please address the following question, Robert. My point was, and has been, that in order to be happy in heaven, one needs a character which is in harmony with God and His principles. Do you agree?

You mean mind-set?

[Robert]

Jesus said, "when you've seen me, you've seen the Father" which is dealing with character.

Wrong! You are dealing with perfection...perfect sinless living while in our bent-to-self flesh. Christ never lived for self....You guys are bent-to-self and you still are tainted with worldliness.

Question: If you were to stand before both the letter & the spirit of God's law today would you be good enough to enter heaven? Yes, or no!

[Robert]

It seems to me that exactly the same logic you're trying to use would prove that one should get married and raise a family, since Jesus Christ didn't do that.

I'll say this...it is unwise to bring children into a world under Lucifer. If I had to do it over I wouldn't....

It is you guys who insist on living a sinless life...one in obedience to the commandments. And you make it conditional on being happy in heaven. So if you are going to play that tune I'm going to make it hard on you because keeping the law is much more than keeping 10 brief rules. The essence of the law is found in the phrase, "you shall love your neighbor as yourself". Here there's only one commandment, not two. That's because self-love is a given. You don't need to tell someone to love his self....It is natural. So the law demands that you love your neighbor as you naturally love yourself. It doesn't say "love yourself" and "love your neighbor". That's a lie. You see if you love self your neighbor will get the leftovers at best. Christ never lived for Himself - He lived for others only. He was the servant of all.

If you guys lived Christ's life (a sinless life) you would share His poverty! Why? Because in this world dominated by selfishness if you don't watch out for your own interests (hence dog eat dog world) you'll find yourself under a bridge. That's what happened to Christ.

“The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.” Those who follow him must share his poverty. “If any man will come after me [follow in His footsteps],” he declares, “let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.” [RH 7-4-1912]

[pnattmbtc]

p:This is a logical fallacy. See "Fallacy of Accident" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy).

You are one of those guys who can't see the trees for the forest. All you legalists are the same....You push your perfectionism, but when someone adds to your list you water down the law. Hypocrite!

This is another logical fallacy: "Irrelevant Conclusion" is the major heading "argumentum ad hominem" is the special case. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy

[pnattmbtc]

p:Please address the following question, Robert. My point was, and has been, that in order to be happy in heaven, one needs a character which is in harmony with God and His principles. Do you agree?

R:You mean mind-set?

Why would you ask this? If I had meant "mind-set," I would have said so. I meant "character," as I asked. What's your answer please?

If you wish to also answer the question with "mind-set" in place of character, then please do so as well.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

It seems to me that exactly the same logic you're trying to use would prove that one should get married and raise a family, since Jesus Christ didn't do that.

I'll say this...it is unwise to bring children into a world under Lucifer. If I had to do it over I wouldn't....

It is you guys who insist on living a sinless life...one in obedience to the commandments. And you make it conditional on being happy in heaven. So if you are going to play that tune I'm going to make it hard on you because keeping the law is much more than keeping 10 brief rules. The essence of the law is found in the phrase, "you shall love your neighbor as yourself". Here there's only one commandment, not two. That's because self-love is a given. You don't need to tell someone to love his self....It is natural. So the law demands that you love your neighbor as you naturally love yourself. It doesn't say "love yourself" and "love your neighbor". That's a lie. You see if you love self your neighbor will get the leftovers at best. Christ never lived for Himself - He lived for others only. He was the servant of all.

If you guys lived Christ's life (a sinless life) you would share His poverty! Why? Because in this world dominated by selfishness if you don't watch out for your own interests (hence dog eat dog world) you'll find yourself under a bridge. That's what happened to Christ.

“The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.” Those who follow him must share his poverty. “If any man will come after me [follow in His footsteps],” he declares, “let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.” [RH 7-4-1912]

No comment..hmmm?

[Robert]

If you wish to also answer the question with "mind-set" in place of character, then please do so as well.

Here is an example:

Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.

[pnattmbtc]

Jesus said, "when you've seen me, you've seen the Father" which is dealing with character.

R:Wrong!

[pnattmbtc]

p:It seems to me that exactly the same logic you're trying to use would prove that one should get married and raise a family, since Jesus Christ didn't do that.

R:I'll say this...it is unwise to bring children into a world under Lucifer. If I had to do it over I wouldn't....

[pnattmbtc]

Robert, I think I've asked you at least a dozen times if you think that one could be happy in heaven with a character not in harmony with God or His principles. You keep not answering this question. Why is this?

If I'm busy, and answer only 6 of your 7 posts, and don't get to the 7th you write, "No comment. hmmm?", while you refuse to answer a question that's been put to you many, many times.

[teresaq]

Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.

[Robert]

do you see a possibility, robert, that Christ through the HS is able to change our minds into the likeness of Christ?

Then what's your problem? Why aren't you living a life that is in total self-denial? If you lived Christ's life you would find poverty at your door. Why? Because in this world you must put yourself first in order to advance. Live for others only (as did Christ) and you will find yourself without unless others live for you (like in the early church)

[Robert]

Robert, I think I've asked you at least a dozen times if you think that one could be happy in heaven with a character not in harmony with God or His principles. You keep not answering this question. Why is this?

Sure I answered....I quoted Romans 7:22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.

That's the mind that has written in it God's agape. If you delight in God's agape you will be happy in heaven even though in performance you might be failing.....

[pnattmbtc]

Robert, you're just repeating the same bad logic.

Anyway, she asked you a yes/no question. Is your answer no, you don't see as a possibility that Christ through the Holy Spirit is able to change our minds into the likeness of Christ?