What is the Gospel?

[pnattmbtc]

p:Their faith is in Christ that He may be honored and glorified, not that they can have a "ticket to heaven."

R:Again, you misunderstand.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

p:Robert, I think I've asked you at least a dozen times if you think that one could be happy in heaven with a character not in harmony with God or His principles. You keep not answering this question. Why is this?

R:Sure I answered....I quoted Romans 7:22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.

p:That's not an answer.

R:That's the mind that has written in it God's agape. If you delight in God's agape you will be happy in heaven even though in performance you might be failing.....

p:This isn't the question I'm asking. I'm asking if you think one could be happy in heaven with a character not in harmony with God or His principles. I'm not asking about performance, but character.

R:I've answered....

Not the question I've actually asked, in spite of my persistence. I still don't know whether you think a person would be happy in heaven whose character is not in harmony with God or His principles. This doesn't seem like a particularly difficult question to answer either. And it's a vital one to deal with.

If you wish to define "character" as "mind-set," it seems to me you could answer the question "yes, a person would not be happy in heaven, unless their character (mind-set) were in harmony with God and His principles." But then you go off talking about performance, which makes it confusing what you even think the question is asking.

[Robert]

This is the egocentric motivation I was speaking of. The 144,000 won't be concerned about their "ticked to heaven" but with the honor and glory of Christ.

Did I say that they were concerned? No....You are illogical! teehe Without the assurance of salvation nothing else matters because all your works to glorify God will be polluted with self-concern and hence self-righteous....

[Robert]

If you wish to define "character" as "mind-set," it seems to me you could answer the question "yes, a person would not be happy in heaven, unless their character (mind-set) were in harmony with God and His principles."

Bingo....

[pnattmbtc]

Did I say that they were concerned?

[pnattmbtc]

p:If you wish to define "character" as "mind-set," it seems to me you could answer the question "yes, a person would not be happy in heaven, unless their character (mind-set) were in harmony with God and His principles."

R:Bingo....

Ok, I don't know why you didn't simply say this yourself, but let's go on from here.

Given that a person would not be happy in heaven, unless their character (or mind-set, as you think of it) were is harmony with God and His principles, how does one obtain such? By faith, right? So how does justification by faith change our mind set?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

p:If you wish to define "character" as "mind-set," it seems to me you could answer the question "yes, a person would not be happy in heaven, unless their character (mind-set) were in harmony with God and His principles."

R:Bingo....

Ok, I don't know why you didn't simply say this yourself, but let's go on from here.

Given that a person would not be happy in heaven, unless their character (or mind-set, as you think of it) were is harmony with God and His principles, how does one obtain such? By faith, right? So how does justification by faith change our mind set?

New birth...by the HS

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Rob

Without the assurance of salvation nothing else matters because all your works to glorify God will be polluted with self-concern and hence self-righteous.

This is a false assumption. It is not the case that "nothing else matters" without the assurance of salvation. This is egocentric thinking, as I've been pointing out.

assurance of salvation

[mrsducky]

Your character development gospel is one that enslaves people to the miserable prospect of never being good enough - you denote a people headed for the experience of making bricks without straw; because they can never attain unto all the "character develoment" stuff you espouse.

"Obedience" is not the same thing as character development. You seem to equate the two and that is wrong. It is the result of. As soon as we master one sin - another one pops up. Just like the weeds one can find and pull out of their garden. When will it end? Is that the "gospel?" The gospel is supposed to atleast be good news.

[John317]

Quote:

Overaged:

Why; after so many pages of this thread is there even more confusion about the gospel than there was in the OP?

The Good News is the power of God that leads to salvation. It isn't static but rather it's a dynamic power that leads those who truly believe it to follow Christ to victory over the world of sin and Satan. Study Romans 1: 16;chapters 6 and 8; 2 Peter 1: 1-11 and the whole of 1 John.

[Just*]

------------------------------------

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Rom 8:12-14

Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God. Rom 6:12-13

-----------------------------

For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. Rom 7:5 =

But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Rom 7:23

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Jn 3:5-6

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you . Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Rom 8:9

[Overaged]

Your character development gospel is one that enslaves people to the miserable prospect of never being good enough - you denote a people headed for the experience of making bricks without straw; because they can never attain unto all the "character develoment" stuff you espouse.

"Obedience" is not the same thing as character development. You seem to equate the two and that is wrong. It is the result of. As soon as we master one sin - another one pops up. Just like the weeds one can find and pull out of their garden. When will it end? Is that the "gospel?" The gospel is supposed to atleast be good news. /quote]

What is Sanctification then if it is not character development? And what about 2 Peter 3:18 where he says

"But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." I have no ability to master sin in and of myself. As I understand it, it is not about me gritting my teeth and struggling to make myself better, but it is about surrendering my will to Jesus and allowing Him to change my character as He sees necessary. That is a blessing not bondage!

Wwen you catch up to all that stuff you think we are to do let us know and we will all have a good look.

[Overaged]

Quote:

Overaged:

Why; after so many pages of this thread is there even more confusion about the gospel than there was in the OP?

The Good News is the power of God that leads to salvation. It isn't static but rather it's a dynamic power that leads those who truly believe it to follow Christ to victory over the world of sin and Satan. Study Romans 1: 16;chapters 6 and 8; 2 Peter 1: 1-11 and the whole of 1 John.

Care to answer my concern re obedience not being the same thing as character development? I am very familiar with all the "proofs" you offer re "obedience" but look at my posts. Is that really my concern? My concern is that even after all your great obedience theology; people will walk away from all this not knowing what the gospel is.

[pnattmbtc]

I believe the Gospel is the Good News about God. It's about *His* character.

As we perceive His goodness, that goodness (if we don't resist the Holy Spirit) impacts us. This is what Romans 2:3,4 tells us (the goodness of God leads us to repentance).

It was, and is, by deception (principally deception regarding God's character) that Satan has gained the power he has. The way to freedom is by means of the truth ("The truth will set you free.").

For SOP fans, the "whole purpose" of Christ's earthly mission was the revelation of God, in order that man might be set right with God ("God Manifest in Christ" ST 1/20/90; a eloquent Gospel message).

Jesus summed this up when He said, "When you've seen Me, you've seen the Father." Now there's good news!

[Robert]

It isn't static but rather it's a dynamic power that leads those who truly believe it to follow Christ to victory over the world of sin and Satan.

The gospel is what saved us 2000 years ago. It is received by faith. What you are accepting is your position "in Christ". Having been justified by faith we have peace with God. This is the assurance of salvation as long as our faith remains in the doing and dying of Christ.

The fruit of the gospel is not the same thing as the gospel. In the doing and dying of Christ you have salvation full and complete. You can't add to that. Those who do are modern-day Judaizers.

For those who are standing on the Rock, Jesus Christ and have accepted their position "in Him" they begin to experience agape. It's a process (not to be saved) that last a lifetime.

2 Cor 3:18 And all of us, with unveiled faces, seeing the glory of the Lord [His love] as though reflected in a mirror, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord, the Spirit.

"There was not one trace of selfishness in the life of Christ. All who are laborers together with God will have the same spirit as their Master had. [How so?] They will be continually growing away from selfishness , and renouncing self-indulgence, even in things that had once appeared innocent to them". . . [LHU 325]

Let's get something straight - the law requires one thing: perfection! Perfect agape love without ever giving into self-centered lust.

So we had to be delivered from under law because the best of us are failing to fully meet the law's requirement. Those who have the assurance of salvation will be growing away from selfishness, but all along they way they are still selfish. Hence in everyone's experience they fall short of God's agape (see Rom 3:23]

The last generation of Christians, after the gospel has been fully restored and preached, will experience the full power of the gospel. They will fully mature so that they fully reflected the self-emptying love of God. This, BTW, doesn't save them, but it does given evidence to the power of the gospel over our bent-to-self.

[pnattmbtc]

This again, Robert, is an explanation centered on the law. (e.g. "Let's get something straight - the law requires one thing: perfection!")

The law is not a sentient being. It can't literally require anything. It stands for the mind of the Being who created it. So to say that the law requires perfection is to say that God requires perfection.

Is this what you think, that God requires perfection? If so, why?

To ask the question another way, suppose the law had never been given. Would the "requirement" to get into heaven be any different?

I really think it's much simpler to think of things in terms of being happy in heaven. What makes for happiness in heaven? What would make one happy there? These questions can be discussed without reference to the law (which is simply a transcript of God's character).

[pnattmbtc]

p:Ok, I don't know why you didn't simply say this yourself, but let's go on from here.

Given that a person would not be happy in heaven, unless their character (or mind-set, as you think of it) were is harmony with God and His principles, how does one obtain such? By faith, right? So how does justification by faith change our mind set?

R:New birth...by the HS

Yes, this is what I'm asking. How does justification by faith, or the new birth, change our mind set? Is it just a one time thing? Can our mind set revert back to what it was? If so, how does that happen?

[mrsducky]

Originally Posted By: mrsducky

Your character development gospel is one that enslaves people to the miserable prospect of never being good enough - you denote a people headed for the experience of making bricks without straw; because they can never attain unto all the "character develoment" stuff you espouse.

"Obedience" is not the same thing as character development. You seem to equate the two and that is wrong. It is the result of. As soon as we master one sin - another one pops up. Just like the weeds one can find and pull out of their garden. When will it end? Is that the "gospel?" The gospel is supposed to atleast be good news. /quote]

What is Sanctification then if it is not character development? And what about 2 Peter 3:18 where he says

"But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." I have no ability to master sin in and of myself. As I understand it, it is not about me gritting my teeth and struggling to make myself better, but it is about surrendering my will to Jesus and allowing Him to change my character as He sees necessary. That is a blessing not bondage!

Wwen you catch up to all that stuff you think we are to do let us know and we will all have a good look.

The first 2 paragraphs were YOUR post not mine. So I'm not sure what all I need to catch up on?

[Robert]

Yes, this is what I'm asking. How does justification by faith, or the new birth, change our mind set? Is it just a one time thing? Can our mind set revert back to what it was? If so, how does that happen?

It's very simply...so simply a caveman could understand it. teehe

John 15:3 [First our ticket - our assurance] You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

Remain in Christ by faith and there'll be no worries, mate!

[Overaged]

quote=Overaged]p:This isn't the question I'm asking. I'm asking if you think one could be happy in heaven with a character not in harmony with God or His principles. I'm not asking about performance, but character.

O:Well; as a general comment, I would say that the way you and some others phrase it when you talk about "character" does seem to insinuate the performance/behavior aspect that concern has been expressed with here./quote]

I think I've been clear and consistent throughout my posts. It seems to me people read there own ideas into what I've written, rather than reading what's actually been written. This is why I ask for quotes on things I've said.

People have agendas, and relate what's written to that agenda, instead of fairly just reading what's being said and considering that on its own merits.

This was a great problem that Jones and Waggoner had. They are accused of doing away with the old landmarks, and there was so much prejudice, people wouldn't listen to what they were actually saying (with EGW being a notable exception, who listened and loved what they said), and were prejudiced against ideas Jones and Waggoner never expressed, all the while thinking they were opposing error.

Oh; I see. So your posts are "gospel" and posts by others are not?

[teresaq]

if i may, i think it is partly because of our own "damage" and partly because we each have different languages, that misunderstandings come in...

[Overaged]

Your character development gospel is one that enslaves people to the miserable prospect of never being good enough - you denote a people headed for the experience of making bricks without straw; because they can never attain unto all the "character develoment" stuff you espouse.

"Obedience" is not the same thing as character development. You seem to equate the two and that is wrong. It is the result of. As soon as we master one sin - another one pops up. Just like the weeds one can find and pull out of their garden. When will it end? Is that the "gospel?" The gospel is supposed to atleast be good news.

[pnattmbtc]

p:Because my posts haven't been fairly read and considered!

O:Oh; I see. So your posts are "gospel" and posts by others are not?

See the ""? This is an emoticon, which, in this context, means something said in a playful manner.

The posts by others are not necessarily not gospel, as they may agree with what I have posted.

:)

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

This is the egocentric motivation I was speaking of. The 144,000 won't be concerned about their "ticked to heaven" but with the honor and glory of Christ.

Did I say that they were concerned? No....You are illogical! teehe Without the assurance of salvation nothing else matters because all your works to glorify God will be polluted with self-concern and hence self-righteous....

"The assurance of salvation?" Well; after reading all through this topic; I don't see it.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

p:Because my posts haven't been fairly read and considered!

O:Oh; I see. So your posts are "gospel" and posts by others are not?

See the ""? This is an emoticon, which, in this context, means something said in a playful manner.

The posts by others are not necessarily not gospel, as they may agree with what I have posted.

I get it. I was just giving you a hard time - but there is a point where it seems like we will never see/know the gospel here. So many all have their own interpretation of it.