What is the Gospel?

[pnattmbtc]

That would mean that Satan is more powerful than God.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

If you are born again your mind is in harmony with God's agape, while your experience might be opposite.....Why? Because the flesh is stronger than your converted will power.

You are not to depend on your own will power. The only thing your will is good for, is to choose to get out of the way, and let God make the necessary changes in you.

Then why aren't you living Christ's life? Apparently there's an element of selfishness you aren't willing to give to God....

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

There's a world of difference between the man without God and the man with God, but who hasn't learned to walk in the Spirit. There are many Christians who try to say "no" to their nature and fail....Is there any condemnation to those who have accepted their position "in Christ"?

Do these people have characters such that they would be happy in heaven?

Their minds/hearts delight in God's law according to the inward man because God, through the Spirit, has caused the mind to take a u-turn from selfishness towards agape.

[Robert]

You can't live for self and go to heaven. You wouldn't be happy there.

Now you are speaking of performance. If this is the case you won't be there either. Please don't lie to me and tell me that you are without any selfishness in your life. See Romans 3:23, 1 John 1:8

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Rob

]Funny, I never met anyone who is totally selfless like Christ. Christ never lived for himself to the point of homelessness. He never invested money to receive interest...he never tried to gain his own wealth...build his own portfolio...go to college to make more money....We do that because we are self-centered. Christ never lived the way we live. The best of us are still sinners when compared to Christ. Who are we kidding?

You're not reasoning soundly here.

Sure, it doesn't seem that way to you because you are thinking from the world's perspective. All that is in the world is based on the love of self.

Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John 2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self) [JS]

Hence if you participate in any of the above you're living for self.

[Robert]

It is God who gives men power to get wealth,

[Robert]

You take one little snipped from Ellen White, and pay no attention to context, and spin a theory which has no basis in logic, nor in what she actually said. Notice the part which is underlined above: "The Bible condemns no man for being rich."

It is you that takes a "little snipped" to make it okay to gain wealth. Wealth is no accident (besides the lottery and a few other means), you have to work at it. Wealth takes a lot of self-love and energy. Agape, on the other hand, "is not self-seeking" [1 Cor 13:5 NIV]. As Jack says, "there's no self in agape". It never lives for itself, but for others.

Our earthly system is the very opposite. In order to gain wealth under Lucifer's system you have live for yourself. Hence the vast difference between the rich and the poor. Heaven's way of gaining wealth is not through your own direct efforts. That is the love of self. Instead wealth is to be gained through the charity (agape) of others. That's why EGW said, "In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure [i.e., own way]; but all, from pure, genuine love [agape], will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132]

Now you tell me that "the Bible condemns no man for being rich." By that I assume you mean the believer? The man without God [the unbeliever] is totally greedy. Even his so called good deeds are done for his advancement.

So let's say that the wealthy believer isn't condemned. I can buy this because,

1] The believer is no longer under law and therefore there's no condemnation. (This doesn't mean that he won't become less selfish as he grows).

2] For example, in the OT, nowhere do we find God railing against polygamy, although Christians today, with few exceptions, see the wrong of it. Nevertheless God allowed it.

Why does God allow sin? Well, why did He allow Lucifer to build his kingdom of self? All world systems are based on Lucifer's concept of self.

I know this much Communism doesn't work. Communism was designed from the philosophy of Karl Marx. Why? Because of Karl's theory. In a nutshell Karl stated that mankind was selfish because of his environment. Of course the environment was Capitalism. Change the environment, said Karl, and humanity will learn to share until it becomes natural.

Where did he go wrong? Humanity isn't selfish because of his environment. Sure, your environment can make it easy for to practice selfishness, but humanity isn't selfish because its environment - humanity is selfish by nature!!!

So all worldly systems - Capitalism, Communism and Socialism will fail. They are all based in "iniquity" and not God's agape love.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

It is God who gives men power to get wealth,

Sure, because God is the author of life. The guy who owns Playboy, Hugh Hefner, has used this opportunity to make millions. Many corporations exploit workers to make their billions. So yes, this wouldn't happen without God.

Quote:

and he has ordained that this ability shall be regarded, not a means of gratifying self,

Sure, he wants folks to live a life of agape with His blessing, but man do the opposite...even the best of us. His ideal is set forth in the following statement:

"You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth." [DA 439]

[pnattmbtc]

R:There's a world of difference between the man without God and the man with God, but who hasn't learned to walk in the Spirit. There are many Christians who try to say "no" to their nature and fail....Is there any condemnation to those who have accepted their position "in Christ"?

p:Do these people have characters such that they would be happy in heaven?

R:Their minds/hearts delight in God's law according to the inward man because God, through the Spirit, has caused the mind to take a u-turn from selfishness towards agape.

This sounds like you're saying "yes." If so, then, OK, this is dealing with the vital issue, which is the transformation of the believer in Christ, as explained in the quote from Waggoner.

[pnattmbtc]

p: You can't live for self and go to heaven. You wouldn't be happy there.

R:Now you are speaking of performance. If this is the case you won't be there either. Please don't lie to me and tell me that you are without any selfishness in your life. See Romans 3:23, 1 John 1:8

You just said in the previous post that believer's mind had taken a u-turn from selfishness towards agape. Is it your contention that one can live for self yet be happy in heaven? What about what you just wrote about the mind taking a u-turn?

[pnattmbtc]

R:Funny, I never met anyone who is totally selfless like Christ. Christ never lived for himself to the point of homelessness. He never invested money to receive interest...he never tried to gain his own wealth...build his own portfolio...go to college to make more money....We do that because we are self-centered. Christ never lived the way we live. The best of us are still sinners when compared to Christ. Who are we kidding?

p:You're not reasoning soundly here.

R:Sure, it doesn't seem that way to you because you are thinking from the world's perspective. All that is in the world is based on the love of self.

This is no way to respond to a post! After saying, "you're not reasoning soundly here," I explained why. Just quoting this statement with no context and completely bypassing the argument I presented isn't addressing the issue I raised, nor carrying on a conversation.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

You take one little snipped from Ellen White, and pay no attention to context, and spin a theory which has no basis in logic, nor in what she actually said. Notice the part which is underlined above: "The Bible condemns no man for being rich."

It is you that takes a "little snipped" to make it okay to gain wealth. Wealth is no accident (besides the lottery and a few other means), you have to work at it. Wealth takes a lot of self-love and energy. Agape, on the other hand, "is not self-seeking" [1 Cor 13:5 NIV]. As Jack says, "there's no self in agape". It never lives for itself, but for others.

No, what I wrote was taking into account the context. Please consider the parable of the talents. God gives us talents, which we can use either for self or for others. There is no sin in acquiring wealth. There is sin in acquiring wealth for the benefit of self. The same can be said for the other talents God has given us, including artistic abilities, intelligence, abilities to interact with people, etc., whatever the talent may be. We are to use our influence for Christ (and this is what wealth really boils down to, it's a type of influence) and His kingdom. Having influence is not a sin, but using it for self is.

Regarding why God allowed sin, the parable of the wheat and the tares illustrates this. It was the only way that Satan's lies regarding God's character could be exposed.

[Robert]

the Bible gives us the example of Nicodemus to dispel any doubts about what I have just said.

Does the Bible say how he got it? Yes? Did he get it through self-seeking, which is sin according to Paul.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

p: You can't live for self and go to heaven. You wouldn't be happy there.

R:Now you are speaking of performance. If this is the case you won't be there either. Please don't lie to me and tell me that you are without any selfishness in your life. See Romans 3:23, 1 John 1:8

You just said in the previous post that believer's mind had taken a u-turn from selfishness towards agape. Is it your contention that one can live for self yet be happy in heaven? What about what you just wrote about the mind taking a u-turn?

Just because the mind has taken a u-turn doesn't mean that you have in performance.....

[Robert]

There is no sin in acquiring wealth.

[Robert]

It doesn't say that trying to do your best in the business world is wrong.

What a joke!!! Business world? You mean the world of exploitation? the world of competition so that you remain standing at the end of the day? You mean Lucifer's system? All worldly systems are built on Lucifer's love of self. Who are you kidding? Not God!

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

It doesn't say that trying to do your best in the business world is wrong.

What a joke!!! Business world? You mean the world of exploitation? the world of competition so that you remain standing at the end of the day? You mean Lucifer's system? All worldly systems are built on Lucifer's love of self. Who are you kidding? Not God!

Again, you who talk of the law, the law, the law....I'm giving you the law. If you want to be perfect, as Christ said, "sell your possessions and give the money to the poor." This is loving your neighbor as yourself or, as EGW put it, "You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth."

Note, it does not say seek after your own wealth and then once you have yours help your neighbor. No, it says you will not seek your own, but another's wealth. This is how is will be in heaven.

The early church experienced some of this agape love...love I have never seen in "God's remnant"! They had all things in common....Sounds like communism, huh?

Well, communism is at the point of a gun. Under compulsion you are to share until it becomes natural. But it never becomes natural because man is self-centered. Only the Holy Spirit can achieve what mankind cannot. And this was seen in the NT church for a short time.

[Robert]

I just found this....Haven't read it all yet....Might be interesting:

Read

[Robert]

Here's some quotes from the above website:

Quote:

Competition, regardless of it's form, has as it's goal of pitting one person against another person in some test of prowess which leaves one a "winner" and another a "loser". It is a forum by which individuals perfect their "discipline".

Scripture supports none of these values. The Bible teaches exactly the opposite of everything competition teaches and stands for. The idea that pitting one person against another to determine which one is best strikes at the very heart of what Jesus said in His commandment to love one another. (Joh 13:34) It also flies in the face of another one of Christ's examples; that of washing the disciples' feet and then he said, "And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all."(Mar 10:44).

Now the owner of this website compares two types of competition:

1] Antagonistic

2] Survival

He tends to view "survival" competition as less evil, but in the end I would bet that he would call it sin.

Why do I say this? Jesus said, "Those who love their own life will lose it; those who hate their own life in this world [under Lucifer's principle] will keep it for life eternal." John 12:25

Remember that the last generation of believers have fully grown up into Christ. Hence, "they loved not their lives even unto death".

[Robert]

Another interesting statement:

Quote:

Introduction and the Apostles System

The Apostles did things God's way and everyone was well off. They all worked hard for God's purposes. Those with money and possessions distributed their wealth to provide for those in need. They did not compete against each other but served each other. They did not have to work with unbelievers or a corrupt system but worked together for God. This is a wonderful fair system, which the church sadly does not practice today. If the church did this, there would be less problems and the church could have a relationship with God as the Apostles did: "34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, 35 And laid [them] down at the apostles’ feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need." (Act 4:34-35)

[pnattmbtc]

Just because the mind has taken a u-turn doesn't mean that you have in performance.

[Twilight]

Another interesting statement:

Quote:

Introduction and the Apostles System

The Apostles did things God's way and everyone was well off. They all worked hard for God's purposes. Those with money and possessions distributed their wealth to provide for those in need. They did not compete against each other but served each other. They did not have to work with unbelievers or a corrupt system but worked together for God. This is a wonderful fair system, which the church sadly does not practice today. If the church did this, there would be less problems and the church could have a relationship with God as the Apostles did: "34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, 35 And laid [them] down at the apostles’ feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need." (Act 4:34-35)

Isn't it "legalistic" to start demanding that others sell all their wealth to comply with your perceived standard Robert?

I thought you was against setting standards like that?

[Robert]

.... the Bible nowhere condemns having wealth.

[Robert]

Isn't it "legalistic" to start demanding that others sell all their wealth to comply with your perceived standard Robert?

I thought you was against setting standards like that?

Wasn't me....However, it points out that selfishness is in the church.

[Robert]

As Ellen White correctly points out, the Bible nowhere condemns having wealth.

Ellen White isn't the final word....The Bible is!

Matt 19:23 "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."