What is the Gospel?

[teresaq]

from the first page

The Great Controversy is in regards to God's character. Satan has misrepresented God's character, fashioning God as one like himself: severe, harsh, petty, and self-serving. It's Good News not only for you, but for all created beings, that God is in reality not like this, but like Jesus Christ.

Our mental picture of God drives everything in regards to our relationship with Him, as well as our relationship to others, and our own well being.

so the "good news" is in regard to Gods character?

[pnattmbtc]

p:Yes, this is what I'm asking. How does justification by faith, or the new birth, change our mind set? Is it just a one time thing? Can our mind set revert back to what it was? If so, how does that happen?

R:John 15:3 [First our ticket - our assurance] You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you.

[pnattmbtc]

I get it. I was just giving you a hard time - but there is a point where it seems like we will never see/know the gospel here. So many all have their own interpretation of it.

This isn't unexpected. People have their own opinions and interpretations on just about anything. Hopefully our ideas aren't fixed in stone, so we can learn from one another.

[pnattmbtc]

p:The Great Controversy is in regards to God's character. Satan has misrepresented God's character, fashioning God as one like himself: severe, harsh, petty, and self-serving. It's Good News not only for you, but for all created beings, that God is in reality not like this, but like Jesus Christ.

Our mental picture of God drives everything in regards to our relationship with Him, as well as our relationship to others, and our own well being.

t:so the "good news" is in regard to Gods character?

I would say that the "good news" is primarily in regards to God's character. That's the biggest issue.

[mrsducky]

If you go back and look at your posts you will see that the following was quoted from you: Your character development gospel is one that enslaves people to the miserable prospect of never being good enough - you denote a people headed for the experience of making bricks without straw; because they can never attain unto all the "character develoment" stuff you espouse.

"Obedience" is not the same thing as character development. You seem to equate the two and that is wrong. It is the result of. As soon as we master one sin - another one pops up. Just like the weeds one can find and pull out of their garden. When will it end? Is that the "gospel?" The gospel is supposed to atleast be good news. /quote

This was my response to your post:

What is Sanctification then if it is not character development? And what about 2 Peter 3:18 where he says

"But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." I have no ability to master sin in and of myself. As I understand it, it is not about me gritting my teeth and struggling to make myself better, but it is about surrendering my will to Jesus and allowing Him to change my character as He sees necessary. That is a blessing not bondage!

[Overaged]

If you go back and look at your posts you will see that the following was quoted from you: Your character development gospel is one that enslaves people to the miserable prospect of never being good enough - you denote a people headed for the experience of making bricks without straw; because they can never attain unto all the "character develoment" stuff you espouse.

"Obedience" is not the same thing as character development. You seem to equate the two and that is wrong. It is the result of. As soon as we master one sin - another one pops up. Just like the weeds one can find and pull out of their garden. When will it end? Is that the "gospel?" The gospel is supposed to atleast be good news. /quote

This was my response to your post:

What is Sanctification then if it is not character development? And what about 2 Peter 3:18 where he says

"But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." I have no ability to master sin in and of myself. As I understand it, it is not about me gritting my teeth and struggling to make myself better, but it is about surrendering my will to Jesus and allowing Him to change my character as He sees necessary. That is a blessing not bondage!

[mrsducky]

That is a beautiful story. I am happy that you have found the good news of knowing Jesus. I guess that is only the beginning of the story though. I too was gone from the church for a while for several reasons and I now understand that Jesus doesn't abandon us if we make mistakes or pull away. He is so gracious and kind and is always willing to accept us. But to my way of thinking the sanctification/character development--whatever you want to say is a continuation of the gospel. It is the growth experience of preparing to spend forever with Jesus. There is a lot of focus on obedience in this topic as you said. That is troubling to me because I am not sure if the writers mean that obedience comes first or if obedience grows out of our relationship with Jesus which is really the only kind of obedience that matters. So it is really a continuation of accepting the gospel. That's my take on it anyway. Thanks for your patience with me and God bless you in your journey to the kingdom!

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

p:Yes, this is what I'm asking. How does justification by faith, or the new birth, change our mind set? Is it just a one time thing? Can our mind set revert back to what it was? If so, how does that happen?

R:John 15:3 [First our ticket - our assurance] You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you.

We are made clean by the word which Christ spoke provided we believe them. That's what this is saying, right? (I'm not seeing how you get "First our ticket - our assurance", out of this).

Wow...I suggest some stronger glasses....If we can't get this down nothing else will matter because your so called good deeds will be polluted with self-centered concerns. In other words your works will be to get something, namely, heaven....

[Robert]

if we do these things [performance], we would be happy in heaven, correct?

You have an agenda, don't you? Are you going to be standing at heaven's gate deciding who is going to get in?

Like I said, the man of Romans 7 has the mindset to enter heaven. Yes, he is failing, but that's because of "the law of sin". If he didn't have "indwelling sin" he wouldn't be failing.....

[Robert]

Are you saying that "sanctification" is the gospel?

Traditional SDA will say that....They have confused the gospel (that which saves) with sanctification (God's work in us as we remain in Him by faith).

Sanctification is the fruit of the gospel. The gospel is our birth, life, death and resurrection in Jesus Christ and nothing else! The minute you add sanctification to Christ's perfect work you have perverted the gospel.

Also sanctification is always ongoing and incomplete because you are continually growing away from selfishness. Some thirty-fold, some sixty-fold, and some one hundred-fold (the 144,000?)

[Guest]

Pro 13:13-14 Whoso despiseth the word shall be destroyed: but he that feareth the commandment shall be rewarded. The law of the wise is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death.

The Law of God is a reflection of Himself. As inspiration tells us, it is a transcript of His character.

“God's law is the transcript of His character. It embodies the principles of His kingdom.” COL 305

Through a meditation of the commandments of God we are brought into contact with the character of God. This is why David said:

Psa 1:1-3 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.

Psa 119:97 O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day.

How could David love the Law of God and make it His meditation when most people see the law as an instrument of legalism, condemnation and death? The Law is death to those who operate under the deception of the serpent’s lie of inherent life source – you shall not surely die. This lie causes people to try and keep the law from within themselves as a means of pleasing God rather than seeing the Law as a promise of what God will do in us when connected to Him.

[Robert]

How could David love the Law of God and make it His meditation when most people see the law as an instrument of legalism, condemnation and death?

"How I love your Torah! I meditate on it all day." (Complete Jewish Bible)

David is referring to the Bible of his day - the Torah.

[Robert]

“God's law is the transcript of His character. It embodies the principles of His kingdom.” COL 305

Partially true. The Spirit of God's law is a transcript of His character.

The law from Sinai was made for mankind after the fall. It was given to turn sin into transgression. It was given to turn sin into guilt, but again it was given for men.

For example, the first four have to do with faith. God doesn't need to have faith in Himself so these can't apply to His character.

Most of the last six don't apply to God's character either. For example the 5th commandment doesn't apply because He has no mother or father.

Yes, the 6th commandment shows God's character for He does not kill or murder.

The 7th doesn't apply to God because He is neither male or female...He doesn't reproduce and therefore sexual temptation is an impossibility.

The 8th commandment doesn't apply to God because He created everything.

The 9th commandment applies to God's character because He never lies or deceives.

The 10th commandment does apply....God is not self-seeking...He does not covet. God is agape. Yes He accepts our worship, but at the same time He is our source of agape and He Himself is the servant of all. He lives to serve.

Okay, out of 10 commandments only 3 apply to His character. What then was EGW speaking of?

"It will be seen that the glory shining in the face of Jesus is the glory of self-sacrificing love. In the light from Calvary it will be seen that the law of self-renouncing love is the law of life for earth and heaven; that the love which "seeketh not her own" has its source in the heart of God; and that in the meek and lowly One is manifested the character of Him who dwelleth in the light which no man can approach unto."

So God's character is "the law of self-renouncing love", which she defines as a love that "seeketh not her own".

[Robert]

The Law is death to those who operate under the deception of the serpent’s lie of inherent life source – you shall not surely die.

Okay, but it's more than that....The essence of the law is "You shall love your neighbor as your love yourself". Self-love is a given...it is what we are born with. Instead of loving yourself, bend that self-centered love out to your neighbors.

You see at the fall Adam's agape love became bent back to himself. That's the primary meaning of iniquity - bent-to-self. Agape, by definition, is always outward....It goes not to self, but one's neighbor. Agape never lives for self...it's motive...it's desire is for others. Hence Christ was called the servant of all.

In heaven, EGW states, none will think of self. Here we think of self a lot. We get educated so we can have nice things. Who are we thinking of? Right, ourselves. We go to work so we can keep our nice things. We think of ourselves constantly. That's iniquity....So the law is a bit more then you have portrayed it to be. The law demand that you agape others, period. The minute you bend that back to yourself the law puts you under it's curse and you await execution.

[Robert]

Here's something from the EGW Estate:

And underlying the way of Jesus versus the way of Satan are two principles that diametrically oppose each other. "Sin," she points out, "originated in self-seeking," in selfishness. By way of contrast, self-giving love is "the great principle which is the law of life for the universe." "The angels of glory find their joy in giving. . . . It is the glory of our God to give" (DA 20, 2 1). Jesus illustrated the law of self-sacrificing love in daily life. He came not only to die for us, but "to give us an example of obedience." Christ "revealed a character the opposite of the character of Satan" (DA 24, 25).

[Robert]

Now Jack Sequeira:

Satan has developed a kingdom (the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of this world”) that is based entirely on the principle of self and which is in complete opposition and contradiction to the “kingdom of heaven.” Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John 2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self).

The 144,000 will reflect Christ perfectly because,

1] The gospel has been fully restored and they accepted it and have the full assurance of salvation is the doing and dying of Christ.

2] They have given up all worldly associations. Jobs, homes, education...all of it. They are completely God dependent in a world under Satan's principle (self-seeking).

If you wish to fully reflect God then give up all ties to Lucifer's kingdom. Our Capitalistic system is not of God. It is based on the strongest survive...dog eat dog...the principle of self! If you participate in our system (or any other system as in Communism, Socialism, etc) you are of the world and therefore fall short of the glory of God!

[pnattmbtc]

To me the gospel is simply wonderful; and wonderfully simple. Jesus is always glad to see me. Jesus is always glad to walk with me. Jesus will always be with me. He has His people everywhere who prove it to me like this blessed man of God who is a true Pastor. (Jer 3:15)

It was nice to see this, as this certainly ties into what I've been saying, which is that the Gospel is primarily the Good News regarding God. Now Jesus Christ was (and is) the revelation of God, so all these good news items you mentioned in regards to Jesus Christ applies equally to God. That is, God is always glad to see you. God is always glad to walk with you. God will always be with you, etc.

At any rate, what you have related here is a revelation of God to yourself in a way that touched your heart and drew you to Him. I agree that this is the Gospel.

[pnattmbtc]

p:if we do these things [the thing mentioned by Robert as things which we must do] we would be happy in heaven, correct?

[Robert]

Yes, I have an agenda, which is the same as that of Jesus Christ, which is the revelation of God.

[Robert]

So I asked if you meant by this that we should believe the words of Christ, and abide in Him by faith, and you responded to this by labeling this as "performance." So if this isn't what you meant, what did you mean?

Try to differentiate between singular and plural. Thanks!

Our job, singular, is to believe in Christ as our COMPLETE Savior. His Job is to renew the mind. He begins this the moment we accept Him.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

p:The Great Controversy is in regards to God's character. Satan has misrepresented God's character, fashioning God as one like himself: severe, harsh, petty, and self-serving. It's Good News not only for you, but for all created beings, that God is in reality not like this, but like Jesus Christ.

Our mental picture of God drives everything in regards to our relationship with Him, as well as our relationship to others, and our own well being.

t:so the "good news" is in regard to Gods character?

p: I would say that the "good news" is primarily in regards to God's character. That's the biggest issue.

soooo, until we know what God is like-and find that attractive-we havent found the "gospel"?

the majority, including the pharisees, saw what God was like. i think some part of each of them found it attractive, but found their sinful nature-wants, or satans ways-more attractive...

i think too many of us have been burned by the legalism, could i say striving for obedience without knowing what God is like first? that when we hear "obedience", or similar words, we hear that mindset...

yet others continue in that mindset, cause "thats how its supposed to be"....as dr phil said once, "you dont know, that you dont know"...

[Overaged]

quote=Richard Holbrook]“God's law is the transcript of His character. It embodies the principles of His kingdom.” COL 305 /quote]

Partially true. The Spirit of God's law is a transcript of His character.

The law from Sinai was made for mankind after the fall. It was given to turn sin into transgression. It was given to turn sin into guilt, but again it was given for men.

For example, the first four have to do with faith. God doesn't need to have faith in Himself so these can't apply to His character.

Most of the last six don't apply to God's character either. For example the 5th commandment doesn't apply because He has no mother or father.

Yes, the 6th commandment shows God's character for He does not kill or murder.

The 7th doesn't apply to God because He is neither male or female...He doesn't reproduce and therefore sexual temptation is an impossibility.

The 8th commandment doesn't apply to God because He created everything.

The 9th commandment applies to God's character because He never lies or deceives.

The 10th commandment does apply....God is not self-seeking...He does not covet. God is agape. Yes He accepts our worship, but at the same time He is our source of agape and He Himself is the servant of all. He lives to serve.

Okay, out of 10 commandments only 3 apply to His character. What then was EGW speaking of?

Robert; while it is true that God does not do what you mentioned above; it does not follow that these commandments do not somehow apply to His character - who He is. Infact; when viewed correctly, it is not "ten commandments" it is ten promises for today's believer.

Lets pick the tenth commandment for an example. You say it doesn't apply to God? The very fact that He does not covet shows His character. That's the whole point of it. The commandments were in existence before the OT, as God Himself is "from everlasting." To the one who loves Jesus...they will be able to keep His commandments; realize all ten promises in their life.

[Overaged]

[pnattmbtc]

soooo, until we know what God is like-and find that attractive-we havent found the "gospel"?

the majority, including the pharisees, saw what God was like.

[pnattmbtc]

Lets pick the tenth commandment for an example. You say it doesn't apply to God? The very fact that He does not covet shows His character. That's the whole point of it. The commandments were in existence before the OT, as God Himself is "from everlasting." To the one who loves Jesus...they will be able to keep His commandments; realize all ten promises in their life.

Actually he said it *does* apply. However, he said the seventh doesn't apply, which is a bit of an odd conclusion, given how often God portrayed Himself as faithful husband.

Thinking of the Ten Commands as Ten Promises I think is looking at them in the right way.