What is the Gospel?

[Robert]

Here's what Jack said:

Whether before or after conversion it doesn’t matter, apart from Christ I am totally incapable

of keeping the law in practice, because my flesh will only serve the law of sin, my human body will only serve the law of sin."

Paul's focus wasn't whether the person in Romans 7 was converted or not.

You've misunderstood Jack. His point is that it doesn't matter if you are converted or unconverted because unless "the law of the Spirit" is yielded to the out come is the same - failure.

However, the uncoverted man doesn't delight in God's law. His mind and nature are in harmony (see Eph chatper 2) and all he desires is what his nature wants, i.e., the love of self. Therefore the so called good things he does is "to be seen of men". All his good works are to bring him fame and/or profit. So yes the unconverted will pretend to love God's law, but all they do is for the promotion of self. Hence the Pharisees were actually lovers of money. "The Pharisees, who loved money" [Luke 16:14]

[Robert]

Matt 23:5 "Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them 'Rabbi.'

[Robert]

"Their [the Pharisee's] spirit and motives and methods were the opposite of His [Christ's]. While they claimed to be very jealous for the honor of the law, self-glory was the real object which they sought; and Christ would make it manifest to them that the lover of self is a transgressor of the law.

But the principles cherished by the Pharisees are such as are characteristic of humanity in all ages. The spirit of Pharisaism is the spirit of human nature....In the days of Christ the Pharisees were continually trying to earn the favor of Heaven [why?] in order to secure the worldly honor and prosperity which they regarded as the reward of virtue...." [MB]

Notice their bent-to-self in the disguise of religion. Their nature and mind are in harmony. Here their nature puts on an act to get its way. That's a Holy Joe....He looks holy on the outside to get his way....Hence self-seeking.

[SivartM]

Well, thank God you're not like that.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

However, the uncoverted man doesn't delight in God's law.

I addressed this. As I pointed out, any Jew or SDA could say they delight in God's law with their mind. But unless they're converted, they can't keep it. They need the Spirit to defeat the flesh. Hence the cry, "Who can deliver me from this body of death?"

However, that's not the cry of the converted man in Romans 8. His cry is, "Thanks be to God, who gives us the victory!"

Anyway, I think this whole thing is missing the point. It's not about being converted or not, but about "I alone" vs. walking in the Spirit.

Again, Jack said:

Quote:

Whether before or after conversion it doesn’t matter, apart from Christ I am totally incapable of keeping the law in practice, because my flesh will only serve the law of sin, my human body will only serve the law of sin."

This sentence is word for word the thought that I've been communicating. Notice "apart from Christ I am totally incapable of keeping the law in practice." The implication here is, of course, that not apart from Christ (i.e., with Christ) I *am* totally capable of keeping the law in practice. Otherwise Jack's sentence doesn't make sense.

[Robert]

Well, thank God you're not like that.

Yes, I'm, bent to self, but I have learned through the gospel that it's futile for me to gain heaven by works. Legalism is the flesh trying to act all holy. Legalism is one's bent-to-self in order to gain heaven. The flesh is proud; it will never admit that it can't gain heaven by performance. Here I am not tempted because I have learned better.

Here's the thing...God will never give you genuine agape if you are depending on His work in you to save you. You have salvation 100% in Christ. Only when you admit that can't add to His perfect work will you begin to experience genuine works.

[Robert]

any Jew or SDA could say they delight in God's law with their mind.

[wayfinder]

What is so amazing to me, is to think that God was so nieve as to think that Israel could keep His law before Christ! Thanks to Paul, who explains it so well.

Romans 3:5,6 NAS

But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say ? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is He? (I am speaking in human terms.) May it never be! For otherwise, how will God judge the world ?

Notice Paul's backwards statement infering that if God were to inflict wrath on us He would be demonstrating unrighteousness.

Romans 5:1 NAS

[Results of Justification] Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

Paul states that in order to remain righteous, God poured out His wrath on His Son so He would not have to pour this wrath out on us and by doing so demonstrate unrighteousness; therefore we have peace with God through Christ Jesus.

[pnattmbtc]

Here's the thing...God will never give you genuine agape if you are depending on His work in you to save you.

Let's say one has no hope of obtaining heaven by hopes, but one's hope is centered in God's character (in particular, His grace and mercy). Is it possible in this case that God would give one genuine agape, and that this agape would result in a character which would have this one happy to be in heaven? Or is it possible to be happy in heaven even though one's character is to live for self?

[pnattmbtc]

The man of Romans 7 delights in God's law according inner man. That phrase is only used by Paul for the converted man.

[Robert]

Or is it possible to be happy in heaven even though one's character is to live for self?

Your mindset might not be to live for self, but you do....You grow but all along the way you also are failing to live Christ's life.

[Robert]

Paul only uses the phrase in one place, which is the controverted text, so you can hardly adduce this as any sort of proof. This is circular reasoning.

[pnattmbtc]

Your mindset might not be to live for self, but you do.

According to Christ, as one thinks in one's heart, so is one. This means that if one's mindset is to live for Christ, one does. Right? How else would we interpret Christ's words?

If one lives for self, how could one be happy in heaven? I understand your desire to crusade against legalism (me too!), but let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater. Thinking that one can live for self and yet be happy in heaven is an extremely dangerous position to take. It's simply not true.

There are two paths, the narrow one (living for Christ/agape), and the broad one (the way of the world, living for self). These two are in contrast one to the other. As James puts it, friendship with the world is enmity against God. As Paul puts it, those who live by the flesh *cannot please God.*

This is what we're dealing with, pleasing God or not pleasing God. We have contrasts here:

a.Self vs. Agape.

b.Satan vs. Christ.

c.Flesh vs. Spirit.

d.Light vs. Darkness.

e.Narrow path vs. Broad path

We choose one path or the other, Christ or self.

[pnattmbtc]

p:Paul only uses the phrase in one place, which is the controverted text, so you can hardly adduce this as any sort of proof. This is circular reasoning.

R:Two...look again...and it's circular reasoning because you desire it that way. Sorry you just toss it out.

[Robert]

According to Christ, as one thinks in one's heart, so is one. This means that if one's mindset is to live for Christ, one does. Right?

[Robert]

One can believe that it's possible to have victory over sin without being legalistic. Does this make sense to you? Indeed, Jack talks about this in the quote you cited.

Right...and I too think it is possible, but you can't do this without renouncing the world and its systems. Let me quote Ellen & Jack:

"The assaults of Satan are fierce and determined, his delusions are terrible; but the Lord's eye is upon His people, and His ear listens to their cries. Their affliction is great, the flames of the furnace seem about to consume them; but the Refiner will bring them forth as gold tried in the fire. God's love for His children during the period of their severest trial is as strong and tender as in the days of their sunniest prosperity; but it is needful for them to be placed in the furnace of fire; their earthliness must be consumed, that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected."

All that you and I have gained is through earthly means! Self-seeking, self-love is what Capitalism (or any other earthly system) is based on. This leads nicely into Jack's quote:

"Satan has developed a kingdom (the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of this world”) that is based entirely on the principle of self and which is in complete opposition and contradiction to the “kingdom of heaven.” Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John 2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self).

....Because Satan is a liar and a deceiver there is much of this world that appears to be good (this is especially designed to be a trap for Christians), but at the end of the world, when Satan will be completely exposed , it will be seen that the whole world (good and bad) worships the dragon “that deceived the whole world” [Revelation 12:9; 13:3-4]. God has allowed Satan to have his own way and develop sin in this world for some 6,000 years. But the time has come when Satan and his kingdom must be exposed and destroyed forever [2 Peter 3:10-13; Psalm 92:7-9]."

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

p:According to Christ, as one thinks in one's heart, so is one. This means that if one's mindset is to live for Christ, one does. Right?

R:Wrong!

Which part of this is wrong? Christ did say that as one thinks in one's heart, so is one. Right? Therefore if one thinks in one's heart to live for Christ, that's what one is. This seems to be sound logic, right? If not, where's the logical flaw here? What do you think Christ meant by "so is one"?

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

If one lives for self, how could one be happy in heaven?

You didn't answer my question. You simply asked me a bunch of questions. Please answer this question. Then if you want to answer me questions, you can, but if you ask me personal questions, I'll most likely answer that this has nothing to do with establishing truth, because truth is not dependent upon the actions of an specific individual (unless one is making statements about a specific individual, which I've not done).

Regarding the quote from Jack, I agree with what he said. I'm hearing you say that victory over sin either isn't necessary or possible, neither of which I'm hearing Jack say.

Jack's points are well taken, IMO. What he is talking about has to do with what the Kingdom of God is all about. It's about truly being like Christ, as opposed to being religious. And he's right that the Kingdom of God has nothing to do with this world. I've made these points in our discussions on other threads in relation to God's character. How God saves someone is tied to His character, so these themes are related.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

Well, thank God you're not like that.

Yes, I'm, bent to self, but I have learned through the gospel that it's futile for me to gain heaven by works. Legalism is the flesh trying to act all holy. Legalism is one's bent-to-self in order to gain heaven. The flesh is proud; it will never admit that it can't gain heaven by performance. Here I am not tempted because I have learned better.

Here's the thing...God will never give you genuine agape if you are depending on His work in you to save you. You have salvation 100% in Christ. Only when you admit that can't add to His perfect work will you begin to experience genuine works.

[Robert]

Which part of this is wrong? Christ did say that as one thinks in one's heart, so is one. Right?

Misapplied and you are still wrong. Back to Romans 7

[Robert]

I'm hearing you say that victory over sin either isn't necessary or possible....

IF it is necessary to become perfect then Christ died in vain....If you are perfect you don't need a Savior.

As to possibility, well, do it....Tell me when you achieve a state of selflessness where there's only agape in your life and no trace of self. Then I'll point to your long list of sins before and after conversion and remind you that sin is sin....A forgiven sin is still a sin. Forgiveness means you sinned....In fact you must always be covered by Christ's righteousness because you are never fully measuring up....

My point? While we do grow, we can never be saved by what we do. We are saved by what christ did in our humanity 2000 years ago.

[pnattmbtc]

p:Which part of this is wrong? Christ did say that as one thinks in one's heart, so is one. Right?

R:Misapplied and you are still wrong. Back to Romans 7

This looks like just trying to run away from a mistake. You said that Paul only applied the phrase the one delights in the law in the inward man to a converted person. I said this is a circular argument, because he only said it once, so there's no base line to use as a comparison. You said, "Wrong!" So I asked where the other statement is that we can use as a comparison, and you're just avoiding a response.

What you wrote was circular reasoning. There's actually a lot of circular reasoning going on. You seem to have an idea as to what's right, and then read that idea into anything else you're reading, and try to make it fit into your idea, regardless of what is being said or who is speaking, even Jack.

Jack's gospel is not the character is unimportant, is it?

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

p:I'm hearing you say that victory over sin either isn't necessary or possible....

R:IF it is necessary to become perfect then Christ died in vain....If you are perfect you don't need a Savior.

Your making the assumption here that victory over sin is only possible is one is perfect in oneself. That's hardly a valid assumption.

Quote:

My point? While we do grow, we can never be saved by what we do. We are saved by what christ did in our humanity 2000 years ago.

This need to be qualified, or else it would have everybody being saved, right? If the only think that enters into the equation is what Christ did 2,000 years ago, then everybody would be saved, since what Christ did 2,000 years ago applies equally to every person. Christ didn't only did for the elect, but for all.

Also, you haven't dealt with the real issue. The real issue is, how can we be happy in heaven? Please consider the following:

Quote:

Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to heaven and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there,-- every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor of God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sitteth upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice.(GC 542)

I know you're not an SOP fan, and I'm not writing this to try to prove something to you, but to communicate an idea. The idea is summed up here:

Quote:

A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire.

*This* is the primary issue. We need to be transformed so that we long for God's presence, rather than hating it. This is not legalism! This transformation is the work of agape, a work of grace, which we receive from Christ as a free gift as we exercise faith in Him.

[Woody]

All I can say is praise God the Father beholds NOT our characters.

"So I will be your representative in heaven. The Father beholds not your faulty character, but He sees you as clothed in My perfection. " DA 357

[Robert]

I said this is a circular argument, because he only said it once, so there's no base line to use as a comparison. You said, "Wrong!" So I asked where the other statement is that we can use as a comparison, and you're just avoiding a response.

2 Corinthians 4:16 "Therefore we [believers] do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day

Ephesians 3:16 "I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you [i.e., the Christians of Ephesus] with power through his Spirit in your inner being...."