What is the Gospel?

[Robert]

set me free from the law of sin and death.

Have any of you holy Joes been set free from

1] the law of sin (the sin nature)

and

2] death?

No???? Then this only applies to our humanity that Christ assumed at the incarnation. Our humanity was set free from the law of sin and its curse, the 2nd death, by the dong and dying of Christ. That's because our humanity was "in Him" and when it died the sin nature died too!

Sunday morning Christ was raised with a glorified humanity free from death (hence immortal) and free from indwelling sin - the law of sin - the sinful nature. He took this to heaven. Those who have accepted Christ as their righteousness stand before God's law perfect in the Beloved.

That's the gospel. If you add anything to this you have a legalistic gospel full of pride and self-esteem. We are saved by what Christ did 2000 years ago, period. Nothing we experience in Christian living adds to the gospel. If you add one bit of human contribution you have perverted the gospel and should become a Catholic.

[Guest]

You are so far out in left field it's not even funny...

Robert doesn't want to allow God to change his character. Or maybe Robert doesn't believe He can.

Nobody is going to heaven without letting God make the necessary changes. And changes in our character are necessary for all of us. It's just that with some, it is more obviously necessary than others.

[Robert]

Robert doesn't want to allow God to change his character.

Why do you speak such falsehood?

[Robert]

Nobody is going to heaven without letting God make the necessary changes.

Babies will be in heaven....When did they make changes. The thief on the cross, when did he make changes.

I will agree that those who have accepted Christ and have developed a faith relationship with Him will experience a change (not perfection). This is the evidence of their faith, not the means.

[Just*]

I didn't understand you're last post (2Cor 5:19 = Col:1:12-22?).

"...not imputing their trespasses unto them..." 2 Cor 5:19 =

"...to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight..." Col 1:22?

[wayfinder]

Isaiah 26:9,10 NAS

At night my soul longs for You, Indeed, my spirit within me seeks You diligently ; For when the earth experiences Your judgments The inhabitants of the world learn righteousness. Though the wicked is shown favor, He does not learn righteousness ; He deals unjustly in the land of uprightness, And does not perceive the majesty of the LORD.

Psalms 25:4 NAS

Make me know Your ways, O LORD ; Teach me Your paths

Psalms 119:26 NAS

I have told of my ways, and You have answered me; Teach me Your statutes

John 14:26 NAS

"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

John 17:17 "Sanctify them in the truth ; Your word is truth.

We are all students of the Holy Spirit of truth. We are taught truth by the Teacher of truth when we practice what we have learned, this is rightousness. Righteousness is the end result of the scantification process.

Revelation 14:5 And no lie was found in their mouth ; they are blameless.

[oldsailor29]

here is part of the gospel - Matt. 6:34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself."

[Guest]

Amen! And this goes with it:

Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

[Robert]

Amen! And this goes with it:

Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

What things?

Context: "So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?'"

Food, water and clothing. Not wealth, riches, nice homes, nice luxury cars, etc.

1 Timothy 6:8 NIV But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that.

Hebrews 13:5 NIV Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, "Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you."

[wayfinder]

And when we put it all together, God is saying, spend your time finding the kingdom of heaven and developing the righteousness of God, and God will take care of your necessities of living while you become holy.

[oldsailor29]

here is part of the gospel - Matt. 6:34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself."

This should be the quote of the day every Friday, until it sinks in.

[pnattmbtc]

p:Just think of it logically, Robert. Why would God take anyone to heaven who wouldn't be happy there?

R:Let's not go with your "feelings" and "emotion" ...

This is hard to following. I'm suggesting you think of this logically, and you respond, "Let's not go with your 'feelings' and 'emotion.'" Why did you equate "feelings" and "emotion" to "think of it logically"?

At any rate, you didn't respond to the point.

The point is that heaven is a place where people will be in the presence of God. Now if people have characters which are out of harmony with God and His principles, heaven would be a place of torture for them. So that's a problem. What position we may have in Christ doesn't solve that problem.

The character doesn't change at death. So how do we develop characters in harmony with God and His principles? (agape) The answer is by faith.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Just think of it logically, Robert. Why would God take anyone to heaven who wouldn't be happy there?

God wouldn't do that, would He? why that would be pure hell.

Jesus..."thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself."

In heaven you will do the same. Hence, "none will think of self,...but all, from pure, genuine (agape) love, will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them."

And how will this take place - by looking out for yourself? No! Instead "you will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth."

If you guys aren't doing this now how will you be happy in heaven?

[Robert]

I'm suggesting you think of this logically, and you respond, "Let's not go with your 'feelings' and 'emotion.'" Why did you equate "feelings" and "emotion" to "think of it logically"?

[Robert]

The character doesn't change at death.

The man of Romans 7 has a character fit for heaven. Character simply means your mind-set.

[Robert]

"you will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth."

Going to college...getting the edge...building your nest egg is living for yourself; not another's wealth. Our bent-to-self comes natural. Hence, as David said, "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." The NKJV puts it better: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity...." In other words, " Behold, I was brought forth bent-to-self".

Agape, on the other hand, always flows outward and never back towards the individual. Agape lives only for others. When you take agape and bend it back towards yourself you have iniquity.

So how was David at birth a sinner? He couldn't even reason at birth much less kill, steal, commit adultery, etc. He was a sinner because he received Adam's fall life at conception and hence every cell in his body and one objective - the survival of self - the love of self.

Agape is not self-seeking. There's no self in agape. You live not to gain your own wealth, but another's. And in heaven your neighbor will live not for herself/himself, but for your prosperity.

But here the best of Christians are falling short of God's selfless, agape love. Hence, as the Paul states, "there is none righteousness, no, not even one." And Jesus says, "No one is good but One, that is, God."

So if the man of Romans 7 is unsaved then all you knuckle-heads who preach perfectionism are also unsaved. Who are you kidding? Not God, He knows of your bent-to-self. There's no hiding your motives from Him.

[Robert]

Here's a good quote from Jack:

One reason why so many Christians today fail to demonstrate the power of the gospel [agape] is because they possess or are motivated by self-centered faith, and this in turn is because they have failed to understand or are ignorant of the true facts of the objective gospel which is Christ our righteousness. If one is given to understand that salvation, full and complete, has not been already obtained in Jesus Christ, that ultimate salvation depends to some degree on our behavior, such as keeping the law or being good; then naturally the faith generated by such an individual will always be polluted with self-concern.

Where justification by faith is not clearly understood, there is insecurity; where there is insecurity, there is fear; and where there is fear, there can be no love but self-concern [which is our bent-to-self or sin], for “perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment” (of the judgment, 1 John 4:17, 18). The idea that one has to be good, or the feeling that I am not good enough to qualify for heaven, is one of the great stumbling blocks that has hindered God’s people today from experiencing genuine faith, which is motivated by love. As a result the church today is spiritually bankrupt (Rev. 3:17). For this reason, it is of utmost importance that we understand the objective facts of the gospel, the truth as it is in Christ, without which we can never experience genuine faith which worketh by love (Galatians 5:6).

The Dynamics of the

Everlasting Gospel

By E.H. “Jack” Sequeira

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

The character doesn't change at death.

The man of Romans 7 has a character fit for heaven. Character simply means your mind-set.

Romans 7:22 For I delight in God's law after the inward man

What is does the "inward man" refer to?

"Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day."

"that he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, that you may be strengthened with power through his Spirit in the inward man"

To love the principle behind God's law, agape, you have to hate Lucifer's principle of self and have your heart/mind renewed by the Spirit of God in your inner most self.

That's having a heart fit for heaven. The problem is learning to "walk in the Spirit" who is now living in you.

Remember as a Pharisee Paul viewed himself as "blameless" with respect to his performance of God's law. Something changed. That change was being born again...having the mind renewed by God's Spirit. It is an ongoing process.

The man of Romans 7 loves Christ (see verse 25) he hates sin and wants to do good (see verses 15,17,18,19,20). The problem is he has not learned "walk in the Spirit". His mind, however, has been renewed and he has a character fit for heaven. He doesn't enjoy sin.....Yes, his nature enjoys sin. That's why he states, "Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I [my converted mind] who do it, but it is sin [my bent-to-self] living in me that does it."

[Guest]

Happy Sabbath Morning to each and all.

Psalms 1:1-3 Blessed is the man that walks not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of the scornful. But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law does he meditate day and night. And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that brings forth its fruit in its season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he does shall prosper.

[Robert]

But his delight is in the law of the LORD.

Romans 7:22 "For I [the man of Romans 7] delight in the law of God according to the inward man"

Thanks for proving my point....

Rob

[Robert]

Blessed is the man that walks not in the counsel of the ungodly

Who are the ungodly? It it just folks who reject God? No!

Here's Paul:

Phil 3:2 Be on the watch against dogs [wolves in sheep's clothing], against the workers of evil, against those of the circumcision: 3 For we are the circumcision, who give God the glory and glory in Jesus Christ [instead of our performance], and have no faith in the flesh [human works]: 4 Even though I myself might have had faith in the flesh: if any other man has reason to have faith in the flesh, I have more: 5 Being given circumcision on the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in relation to the law, a Pharisee: 6 In bitter hate I was cruel to the church; I kept all the righteousness of the law to the last detail.

The folks you need to watch out for are the Holy Joes who come to you in Christ like clothing (sheep like clothing). On the outside they look all holy, but inside they are full of dead man's bones.

They bring a gospel that brings pride to the human soul. They teach that what Christ did 2000 years ago is incomplete, that you must also keep the law, while they are failing themselves. These are the knuckleheads you need to watch out for. They do all this so that they might glory in your performance.

Just like in the days of Paul these guys are alive and well. They probably aren't Judaizers...they are more like Gentilizers.... teehe but they teach the same message:

Here's the message:

Acts 15:5 Then some of the believers [note - they are believers in Christ] who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the book of the law (the first five books of the OT)."

If anyone brings you this gospel ask them the following:

10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear?

Then tell them, "11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."

If they fight you, tell them this:

You are cut off from Christ [you are lost and under the curse], you who would have righteousness by the law; you are turned away from grace. [Gal 5:4]

Again, the only way to experience agape is to accept that "in Christ" I have salvation full and complete in His doing & dying and that I cannot add one iota to that righteousness He obtained in His earthly life. I am complete in Him.

If you believe that then you will begin to change from the inside out.....

[Woody]

Thanks Robert. Some great thoughts from God's Word.

[Robert]

Thanks Robert. Some great thoughts from God's Word.

TU

The point is that if the man of Romans 7 is not saved under grace then we have all had it. The best of Christians experience Romans 7 & 8 daily....Notice I said "the best"...the mature believer.....

But here's the thing, unless one comes to the place that in Christ he/she has salvation full and complete that person will never experience genuine agape.

So in order to experience agape you must admit that your experience doesn't save you....Christ's doing and dying saved you. It takes all human pride and slams it in the dust.

[Woody]

Excellent. Amen Amen.

[Overaged]

in order to experience agape you must admit that your experience doesn't save you....Christ's doing and dying saved you. It takes all human pride and slams it in the dust.

I had an experience a short while ago that illustrates this, just how our "experience" mixes with agape.

it is quite true that our "experience" does not save us; I am just thinking though that it can lead to Someone who does. (John 1:29)

I was driving a 48 foot long truck downtown, through all the alleys, on a cold winter night doing my pickups for the night. behind one of the bins I was picking up from was a homeless fellow, trying to shelter himself from the biting wind. Just as I was about to fire up the PTO and dump the load in my truck, he came up to me crying, and held up the roughest looking, redest, cracked and swollen hands I have ever seen, and he said: "please, I beg you, do you have an extra pair of gloves.? My hands are so cold."

The partner I was working with only had the pair he was wearing, and so did I. I usually had extras, but gave them away earlier that evening. I started to say to him that I had no extra gloves, and how badly I needed them for the job. But, then without really thinking about it; I just took off my plush, insulated gloves, and said: hey, I do have one extra pair my friend!"

My work partner looked in amazement at this; and just hollered above the noise of the truck: "That was Jesus." When he "saw Jesus" he actually sought out a church to go to, for the first time in years; and he now attends a Baptist fellowship every week.

When the person that I gave the gloves to put them on; he just threw his arms around me and gave me a weak, but enthusiastic bear hug. That night made me want to go back to church for the first time - not because of what I did; but because of Jesus, and what He did. I could see how real hope in Christ was that night, more than ever before.

I do know that one trucker had cold hands that night, and as he drove away; he left more than one tear in the empty garbage bin. As I drove around later, doing other pickups without gloves; I was picturing the tears freezing in their place, just like my emotions when I thought God wasn't there. Jesus goes to the darkest, most forbidding cold and dangerous places to meet us with His Agape' love. This is the present truth that will bring about that "revival of primitive godliness" that so many talk of, but never really aim for.