What is the Gospel?

[John317]

Quote:

Richard Holbrook: And yes you can overcome sin by the power of God, but not on your own like you believe. That will NEVER happen.

Mat 19:25,26 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

And John 15:5 also puts the kaibosh on your false belief that you can become righteous on your own, without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

AMEN!

[Jodie]

Quote:

Richard Holbrook: And yes you can overcome sin by the power of God, but not on your own like you believe. That will NEVER happen.

Mat 19:25,26 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

And John 15:5 also puts the kaibosh on your false belief that you can become righteous on your own, without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

AMEN!

and AMEN!

[Guest]

Nice to see you here Jodie. What a pleasant surprise!!

[phkrause]

and another Amen to that!

pk

[Dr. Rich]

Doesn't anyone ever read the Ten Commandments anymore? The first one would be broken IF you did not have a connection with the vine. You guys just don't get 'it' do you?

The Holy Spirit is God! Got that? God will NOT and can NOT dwell in a person, house, church, temple, city, country and world that is full of sin. Period! What you are doing is playing the silly little game of what came first--the chicken or the egg? Do you honestly believe that Noah found favor with God because the Holy Spirit was causing him to be righteous? God to Cain that sin was crouching at the door, but He also told him that it was Cain's job to overcome sin.

What are you people going to do when the door is shut in your face because you honestly believed that you could not become righteous so you had complete faith that you were saved--you even did work in the name of Jesus and cast demons out and such and such, but what is it you are going to say when the door is shut and Jesus says "I never knew you"?

You can "AMEN" and pat yourself on the back all day long and it will not change the words of Jesus when He said IF you love Him, to keep His commandments. Yes, He is the vine but if the branch does not give good fruit (teach the truth) then it will be cut off and thrown in the fire. When you presented John 15:5 you left out verses 6,7,8,9 and especially 10!

Jesus told His disciples that they were His friends IF they did what He commanded them to do. (Jn 15:14)

So please compare John 15:5-10 with Romans 11:17-24. Jesus NEVER said anything about 'adoption'!

[Guest]

Quote:

So please compare John 15:5-10 with Romans 11:17-24. Jesus NEVER said anything about 'adoption'!

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

So was John the beloved lying when he said this, or was he inspired by the Holy Spirit? Did the Holy Spirit make him remember all that Jesus taught him, or did John make the stuff up?

You can't have it both ways!

Also, about the HS:

Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

He is talking to evil people, telling them He will give them the Spirit. He says so right there. Read the text!

[Dr. Rich]

Yep, you gotta 'receive Him' first. Know what that means?

[Guest]

Of course. It's not comlicated. You are either willing to follow where He leads or not. When you are willing to allow Him to make the necessary changes in you, and follow where He leads, you have recieved Him.

[Dr. Rich]

Ok, not bad Richard. One still has to make the choice on their own to allow Him to make the necessary changes though. And of course to do that would be making the choice on your own to abide in the words of God.

[Musicman1228]

Richard,

What you said it true, but does not go far enough. We must put His words into our minds and hearts, and then ACT on those words which proves they are now in our minds and hearts. Without action there is no proof of anything. Lots of people SAY that they love Jesus, but then go right out and cheat on their taxes or their wife (or husband) and when caught simply say "I'm sorry" and then expect that Jesus has already forgiven them.

The error here is believing that Jesus with continually forgive you for making the same error over and over. He will not do this because Jesus is not stupid. Have you heard the definition of 'stupidity'? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting DIFFERENT results. Does there not come a time when Jesus has to say 'those actions display what is in his/her heart, therefore they are lost'? You must display righteous acts in order for Jesus to know your true heart and KNOW that you are now righteous.

[Guest]

Ok I'll go along with that, It's up to you to choose. And to keep choosing everyday. But He does the heavy lifting. You just have to be willing to allow it.

[Guest]

Quote:

The error here is believing that Jesus with continually forgive you for making the same error over and over.

Nobody is saying that. If you keep doing the same stupid things over and over, then there is something wrong with your walk with Jesus. It would suggest that you haven't really recieved Him.

[Guest]

Remember what I said about the word "pistis" "believe"? It means you believe in something so much that you commit to it.

[Dr. Rich]

Bingo!

[Robert]

That is a fair point Robert, but the essence of that meaning is actually included in Rom 8:4 which is accepted.

Rom 8:1 and 4 are dealing with two different subjects. The subject of verse one is the answer to the question in Romans 7:24 ....Who will deliver me out of the body of this death? [a humanity indwelt with sin and death]

The answers are in Roman 7:25 and Romans 8:1

"Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!"

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus [who have accepted Christ]....

While the man of Romans 7 is failing to live the life he desires he nonetheless has his faith in Christ Jesus. Notice his reference in verse 25: "Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!"

So even though he is failing his heart is right and "in Christ" there's no condemnation. Why?

Romans 8:3 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

This can't apply to the believer, but rather our humanity "in Christ". How? None are free the sin nature and none are free from death.

[Woody]

Bingo!

Your are out of order ... that belongs to Robert.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Bingo!

Your are out of order ... that belongs to Robert.

Bingo! teehe

[Woody]

Yes Robert.

HA HA HA HO HO HO HE HE HE

Whoops ... that belongs to dgrimm.

[Guest]

Well cut my legs off, and call me shorty.

Where you been Robert?

[Lutz13]

The Holy Spirit is God! Got that? God will NOT and can NOT dwell in a person, house, church, temple, city, country and world that is full of sin.

[pnattmbtc]

The error here is believing that Jesus with continually forgive you for making the same error over and over. He will not do this because Jesus is not stupid.

[Dr. Rich]

John also said that anyone [truly] born of God (Holly Spirit) will not sin. Well, which is it? I believe it is both. Here is why:\\

The Holy Spirit will 'lead' people into ALL truth as Jesus said in John 14, but once one is actually born of the Holy Spirit and become sanctified and sealed by God, they are now on par with Jesus and will never sin again.

What I believe "born again" truly means is not what the majority believe and that is why it appears to be a disagreement. I am not in disagreement with the Holy Spirit being a 'helper' for that is the 'job' of the Holy Spirit. There is a big difference between justification and sanctification and most people don't see this and believe that being justified is all they need. Jesus said that He became sanctified so that we are able to become sanctified too. My understanding on sanctification is the same as my understanding on being 'born again' and at that time I believe one becomes a saint.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Rom 8:1 and 4 are dealing with two different subjects. The subject of verse one is the answer to the question in Romans 7:24 ....Who will deliver me out of the body of this death? [a humanity indwelt with sin and death]

The answers are in Roman 7:25 and Romans 8:1

"Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!"

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus [who have accepted Christ]....

While the man of Romans 7 is failing to live the life he desires he nonetheless has his faith in Christ Jesus. Notice his reference in verse 25: "Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!"

So even though he is failing his heart is right and "in Christ" there's no condemnation. Why?

Romans 8:3 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

This can't apply to the believer, but rather our humanity "in Christ". How? None are free the sin nature and none are free from death.

Here's Romans 8:3,4

Quote:

3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The righteousness of the law is fulfilled in who? In us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. This can only apply to the believer.

Regarding Romans 8:1, I agree with what John317 wrote. From the standpoint of the texts use, I think John317's explanation is completely correct and convincing. The textual evidence is that the phrase should be there. If you go by these other manuscripts which John317 mentioned, the ones that don't have the phrase there, you'll find yourself tossing out a lot of other things as well. For example, the story of the woman caught in adultery in John 8 goes away. It would be hard to know what's in Scripture and what isn't.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

John also said that anyone [truly] born of God (Holly Spirit) will not sin. Well, which is it? I believe it is both. Here is why:\\

The Holy Spirit will 'lead' people into ALL truth as Jesus said in John 14, but once one is actually born of the Holy Spirit and become sanctified and sealed by God, they are now on par with Jesus and will never sin again.

This isn't close to what John was saying. 1 John 3:9 must be one of the most misunderstood and misapplied verses in Scripture. John wasn't making a theology that one who is born again will never sin again. He was describing what the life of a righteous individual looks like. James did the same thing. 1 John 3 should be read in context.

What John is saying, and says throughout the epistle, is that one who believes in Christ will walk as Christ walked. He explains this in very practical terms:

Quote:

14We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

15Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

16Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

17But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

18My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. (1 John 3)

This is the thrust of John's argument right here. Let us not love in word along, but in deed and truth. Note especially verse 17. This is John's burden, not a theology that one who knows Christ will never sin again. He starts out his epistle saying that if any one sins, he can be forgiven. He was speaking to believers in saying this. The idea is that there is no need or excuse for anyone to sin, but if one does sin, there is forgiveness.

The main thrust of the epistle is that summarized in the verses above. If one is Christ's, then one should walk as Christ walked. It's all about character.

[pnattmbtc]

Jesus says "I never knew you" to those who try to work their way to heaven. It is those that have a relationship with God that will make it. Once again, read about David and you will see what it means to have a relationship with God.

God connects to us through the heart, until you can learn to speak with Him from the heart, He won't hear you. If His laws aren't in my heart, it is pointless to try and follow them. It actually makes for a miserable experience and puts one in bondage...

You can only love Him through a relationship, and that is by getting to know Him, and being 100% honest with Him. I tell Him: "Lord, I hate that guy, he really pisses me off." He won't ignore what I said because it was honestly how I felt. I can then continue the prayer "can you fix this part of my heart?"

Once again, if it isn't in your heart to follow the law, then it is pointless.

Just look at all of the people that Jesus hung out with. They were evil in the eyes of the Pharisees, but to Jesus they were good people. Their hearts were honest, and they knew they had a sin problem. They knew they needed a savior.

Very nice.