What is the Gospel?

[Lutz13]

God did not kill His Son! Again, I'll ask you to quote something from the words of Jesus to establish your position. Jesus NEVER said, "My Father will kill Me," or anything ever remotely close to this.

He said no one would take His life from Him, but He would lay it down. When He spoke of His being slain, it was in the context of evil men, not of God.

Your concept of God seems dark to me.

I would agree. Seems very dark to me. God would need a human death to appease His anger...Sounds like some of the pagan gods we read about in scripture...

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

pnatt said, "Clearly the law can't literally "pronounce" anything, not being a sentient being. Are you here attempting to state Paul's argument? (as opposed to being your own thought; i.e., that the law pronounces a curse)."

(A brief aside from the topic at hand.)

It is interesting how you put this. Stated this way you would also have to assess the same value to the Two Witnesses of Rev. 11 as being the Old and New Testament in the same light. The 'Law' being contained inside the Old and New Testaments would also fall under this same stricture; that is they cannot be the Two Witnesses because they are not 'sentient beings'. Therefore, the Two Witnesses MUST be real human beings living during the Great Tribulation. Would this not make EGW incorrect in her clear prophetic statement that the Two Witnesses are the Old and New Testament?

Only if one rather takes symbolic things literally, in spite of the evidence they shouldn't be.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

I would agree. Seems very dark to me. God would need a human death to appease His anger...Sounds like some of the pagan gods we read about in scripture...

Indeed.

It makes it seem as if God and the Son are opposed to one another rather than working in harmony. Also, it makes them seem different. It doesn't seem that it could be true, in this case, that Jesus was correct when He said, "If you've seen Me, you've seen the Father."

[wayfinder]

First of all, God did not execute His Son to appease His anger, God does not execute as an emotional response. The appeasment of God's wrath can only be found in Paul's writtings. Jesus is called the Lamb of God, not the Lamb of man. Only the one to whom the lamb belongs can execute that lamb.

Revelation 5:6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures ) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth

Revelation5:9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals ; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

This was not done with wrath, it was the purchase price for His(Lamb's) kingdom.

Jesus was killed as a Passover lamb. The blood of the blood Passover lamb was the purchase price paid for the Israelites to be God's own kingdom. The Passover Lamb was killed by the head of the household, in the case of Jesus, this would be the Father.

[Twilight]

but God did not want His Son to be killed.

Then why did He "will" it?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

What evidence do you have to make this claim Robert?

It's rather simple....Remember that in the original manuscripts there were no verse and chapter divisions. Reading from Romans 7:21

So I find this law [the law of sin - our bent-to-self] at work: When I want to do good, sin is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Here's a man that loves God's law (your shall love your neighbor as yourself), but when the rubber meets the road he is failing to experience agape because he is depending on his will power to say "no" to his bent-to-self. Is there any condemnation to those who are failing to be selfless?

Remember that as a Pharisee Paul considered himself blameless before the law. See Phil 6:6. But when he understood what coveting really was (the love of self - i.e., our bent-to-self) he saw himself as a sinner. As EGW states, "when the spiritual character of the law was discerned, he saw himself a sinner."

So the context of Romans 7 as related to the law isn't about keeping the letter of the law, but rather keeping its spirit. For example you can give all your possessions to the poor, but if your motive is bent back to self (if your motives is selfish in the least bit) your deed is polluted and hence filthy rags.

That's the issue with the man of Romans 7. He doesn't have problems with keeping the letter of the law...it's the spirit of the law he can't keep. Why? Because agape is the only way one can be in harmony with the law and that comes by the spirit if you are not depending on these works to save you.

So the man of Romans 7 is failing to keep the spirit of the law. Is there any condemnation?

Romans 8:1 (the tradition view) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

But this man is failing...therefore we must conclude there's condemnation to the one who isn't keeping the spirit of the law. What is the spirit of the law? No bent-to-self. You must live Christ's life....A life that "thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself".

Since you say that the traditional view of Romans 8:1 is correct then you must admit that you are under the curse and lost.

Now maybe the correct version would be appreciated, what do you think?

Rob

It seems to me my friend, that you have presented your own theory here, because it does not fit with your understanding of the Gospel?

Do you have any evidence that Romans 8:1 has been altered at some point?

I believe this is the claim you are making?

Mark :-)

[Robert]

Do you have any evidence that Romans 8:1 has been altered at some point?

It doesn't fit the context....Besides look at the many versions:

The following don't include that added phrase:

American Standard Version

Bible in Basic English

New International Version

Complete Jewish Bible

Good News Translation

GOD'S WORD Translation

Holman Christian Standard

New American Standard

New Century Version

New Revised Standard

New Living Translation

Revised Standard Version

The Darby Translation

Weymouth New Testament

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Do you have any evidence that Romans 8:1 has been altered at some point?

It doesn't fit the context....Besides look at the many versions:

The following don't include that add phrase:

American Standard Version

Bible in Basic English

New International Version

Complete Jewish Bible

Good News Translation

GOD'S WORD Translation

Holman Christian Standard

New American Standard

New Century Version

New Revised Standard

New Living Translation

Revised Standard Version

The Darby Translation

Weymouth New Testament

That is a fair point Robert, but the essence of that meaning is actually included in Rom 8:4 which is accepted.

And Romans 8:13.

So even if it was a later addition the point still stands.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

God bless brother.

Mark :-)

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

pnatt, I find, for myself, some troubling statements made by Paul. I realize I am in a minority on this issue, but I must be honest with myself, for I am accountable for myself, for the light given me by God and responsible for sharing this light with others.

Revelation 2:2 'I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false

I put everyone to the test who "calls themselves apostles" and I find troubling statements made by Paul. The standard I use is the testimony of Jesus as recorded by His eyewitnesses and the books of the Law and prophets.

I'm not really seeing this.

I don't think there's any problem with being troubled by certain statements by Paul, or any other inspired author. Indeed, I would find it troubling to NOT be troubled by certain statements. We're not infallible, and we're dealing with a spiritual book. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned, and we're bound to make mistakes.

What I'm seeing are interpretations of Paul which are puerile. I've not seen any of the suggestions being made by any commentaries, many of which are not Paul friendly. I understand that we needn't trust in commentaries for our interpretations, but they can help avoid some of the rather gross errors I'm seeing. For example, suggestions are being made as to what Paul meant that would have been impossible for Paul to have held simply because the suggested ideas didn't exist in Paul's time.

Regarding using the words of Jesus Christ as the foundation for our theology, I agree with this 100%. Jesus Christ was the revelation of God. The purpose of His mission was to show us the Father. Again, I agree completely with using Christ as our foundation and starting point for developing theology, so perhaps we can find some common ground here.

I've asked on a number of occasions where you find the idea that Christ died to pay a penalty for us. I know of no words of His which teach this idea. The only thing that comes to mind that could even be misinterpreted as teaching this is Mark 10:45 ("and to give his life a ransom for many."). Where do you see this teaching in the words of Christ?

I apologize if you answered this already and I missed it. If so, please point me to your post which addresses this.

[pnattmbtc]

First of all, God did not execute His Son to appease His anger, God does not execute as an emotional response.

[pnattmbtc]

p:but God did not want His Son to be killed.

T:Then why did He "will" it?

[Dr. Rich]

None are so blind as those who say they can see, for this reason Jesus will cause those who say they see to become blind and those who are blind to see. Hmmm? I wonder what this is all about?

It would be nice of you to not ridicule others like you accused me of doing--right? WF provided SOLID evidence for his understanding. Your attitude is the same as what you accused me of.

So tell me pnatt... name the apostles that are false apostles as found in Rev. 2:2! Why don't you put them to the test and see what happens too? The test is the words of Jesus.

[pnattmbtc]

None are so blind as those who say they can see, for this reason Jesus will cause those who say they see to become blind and those who are blind to see. Hmmm? I wonder what this is all about?

[pnattmbtc]

Dr. Rich, here is the post I'm referring to. This is the first post in our discussion that I addressed to you. I don't think you've addressed it. If you have, please point me to the post that addresses this. If you haven't, please do so.

R:One does not have to look far to see how Paul would write one thing and then say something like "may it never be". As MM correctly stated, Paul talked with both side of his mouth, saying one thing and then the other. Jesus never did that.

p:Paul NEVER said the law was evil. This is a gross misrepresentation. MM was not correct about this. Paul said the law is "holy, just, and good." That's clear.

I have no idea where this prejudice against Paul comes from. It's certainly not fair to misrepresent someone's words like this.

R:Paul also said that the law was a curse--right?

p:No, wrong! Paul said:

Quote:

10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. (Galatians 3)

p:The law is not the curse, but sin! Cursed is everyone who disobeys the law. Once again, the law is "holy, just, and good," but sin is the problem, just like Romans. Paul is being consistent, and consistently misrepresented.

R:So if Paul said the law is good, then would it have been a 'good curse' to keep it?

p:No! It's a curse to disobey it! This is exactly what Paul says!

R:Didn't Paul also say it was a curse to hang on a tree? I can't see where God would have every said anything like that.

p:It's in Deuteronomy. He quoted from Moses. He didn't originate the thought.

_________________________

Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.

[Dr. Rich]

pnatt... it is about foundational issue. We (our study group) has found that if one does not have the right foundation, then their whole house they build will fall. Truth seems and was very important since Jesus said that is why He came to the earth--to testify to the truth. He also said that it is TRUTH that will set one free from sin. He did NOT say that His death would set anyone free from sin.

Knowing the REAL reason why Jesus came down from heaven is a foundational issue. Using the words of Jesus will provide the answer to this question. Using words from another source will not work.

I will agree (because I have been through this process) that paradigms will shift drastically when this is done. In fact, it because very easy to spot a counterfeit gospel when you have the real one to use to test all others.

Paul's gospel caught on and spread very fast because it was a secure feeling to believe your are saved just saying that you believed in Jesus without having to know anything about Him. On the other hand, the gospel that Jesus testified to made the majority very angry and they all wanted to kill Him. Nobody wants someone telling them the truth when they have been believing a lie for a long time.

God has warned ALL members of the SDA church to REPENT for following the teaching of the woman that had lead them (bond servants) astray. Most will reject this warning and this is very sad! But each one on this forum can make a stand for the truth and accept what God said and repent and then become one of the 144,000 who become sealed (born again) and sanctified prior to the time of trouble. The choice is yours! You have no one to blame but yourself!

[wayfinder]

pnatt, Was Jesus death/sacrifice that of the (morning and evening)sacrifice or the Passover Lamb, because these two are not the same. Consider Jesus words "My time has not yet come" and His anointing by a woman on the 10th day of the month, the day the Passover lamb was to be separated from the flock (set apart) see Matthew 26:7.

Exodus 12:3 NAS

"Speak to all the congregation of Israel, saying, 'On the tenth of this month they are each one to take a lamb for themselves, according to their fathers' households, a lamb for each household.

Exodus 12:21 Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel and said to them, "Go and take for yourselves lambs according to your families, and slay the Passover lamb.

Exodus 12:26 "And when your children say to you, 'What does this rite mean to you?' 27 you shall say, 'It is a Passover sacrifice to the LORD who passed over the houses of the sons of Israel in Egypt when He smote the Egyptians, but spared our homes.' " And the people bowed low and worshiped.

Jesus breathed His last just as the Passover was being killed (twilight). The Passover Lamb was not killed by unbeliving sinners, but by the beliving heads of the household (fathers).

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

pnatt... it is about foundational issue. We (our study group) has found that if one does not have the right foundation, then their whole house they build will fall.

I agree with this. I believe the right foundation is a knowledge of God, particularly His character. I believe the whole purpose of Christ's mission was the revelation of God, that men might be set right and kept right with God.

Quote:

Truth seems and was very important since Jesus said that is why He came to the earth--to testify to the truth. He also said that it is TRUTH that will set one free from sin.

I agree. And the truth which sets people free is the truth about God. This is what Jesus Christ revealed -- the truth about God. It's not facts we need, not just information, but an intimate knowledge of a Being who has a character that's been misrepresented by a clever enemy.

Quote:

He did NOT say that His death would set anyone free from sin.

I didn't say anything like this.

Quote:

Knowing the REAL reason why Jesus came down from heaven is a foundational issue.

I agree. The real reason was to reveal the Father.

Quote:

No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (John 1:18)

Quote:

18No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is truly God and is closest to the Father, has shown us what God is like. (John 1:18)

Two translations of the same verse. John 3:16 sums this up nicely as well.

Quote:

Using the words of Jesus will provide the answer to this question. Using words from another source will not work.

I've repeatedly emphasized that building a theology based on Jesus Christ's life and teaching is the proper foundation. No where do we see God revealed as clearly than in and by Jesus Christ.

Quote:

I will agree (because I have been through this process) that paradigms will shift drastically when this is done. In fact, it because very easy to spot a counterfeit gospel when you have the real one to use to test all others.

I agree as well, that when on starts to realize that God really is like Jesus Christ, as He said ("When you've seen Me, you've seen the Father.") one's paradigm changes drastically. One begins to see God as humble, kind, patient, and other attributes often not attributed to God.

Quote:

Paul's gospel caught on and spread very fast because it was a secure feeling to believe your are saved just saying that you believed in Jesus without having to know anything about Him. On the other hand, the gospel that Jesus testified to made the majority very angry and they all wanted to kill Him. Nobody wants someone telling them the truth when they have been believing a lie for a long time.

I don't think you've understood Paul well at all. I agree with your idea to start with Jesus Christ.

Quote:

God has warned ALL members of the SDA church to REPENT for following the teaching of the woman that had lead them (bond servants) astray. Most will reject this warning and this is very sad! But each one on this forum can make a stand for the truth and accept what God said and repent and then become one of the 144,000 who become sealed (born again) and sanctified prior to the time of trouble. The choice is yours! You have no one to blame but yourself!

I can't think of anything more important than a knowledge of God. If I'm going to repent of something, it's going to be for not knowing Him better, and not presenting a better picture of Him to others.

Please address the post I've been asking you to, and have reposted a couple of times for your convenience.

[Dr. Rich]

pnatt wrote: "Please address the post I've been asking you to, and have reposted a couple of times for your convenience."

Not sure what post you mean? I have always replied to all of your posts and to your questions as far as I know.

God's character is found in the Ten Commandments--right? Did God change this character? No!

So why, as you say, did Jesus have to come to the earth to reveal His Father's character? John wrote what Jesus actually said that Jesus' words were what His Father wanted Him to say.

Did not Jesus say that He did not come to the earth to bring peace, but because of Him family's would become divided?

So please show me where Jesus said that He came to show us His Father's character? Yes, Jesus said if you saw Him, then you saw His Father, but that is not talking about Character, is it? God demands that we obey--period! He is just and good. He knows evil but does not do evil. So what else are we to know about God's character? It appears that you want to psychoanalyze God for some reason? What happened to truth?

[pnattmbtc]

pnatt, Was Jesus death/sacrifice that of the (morning and evening)sacrifice or the Passover Lamb, because these two are not the same.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

pnatt wrote: "Please address the post I've been asking you to, and have reposted a couple of times for your convenience."

R:Not sure what post you mean? I have always replied to all of your posts and to your questions as far as I know.

The one I keep posting and asking you to answer. I'll post it again after this one.

Quote:

God's character is found in the Ten Commandments--right? Did God change this character? No!

So why, as you say, did Jesus have to come to the earth to reveal His Father's character?

To reveal God's character. The law does reveal God's character, but not fully, like Christ did. For example, God's humility, compassion, patience, and kindness, to name a few things, are attributes which had not been revealed in the majestic glory that Christ revealed.

Don't you like the picture of God which Christ presented? Isn't it attractive?

John points out that Moses brought us the law, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. What is John talking about? Just a couple of verses later he explains, saying that no one has seen God, but Jesus Christ, His only Son, has shown us what He is really like. This is the grace and truth John was talking about.

Quote:

John wrote what Jesus actually said that Jesus' words were what His Father wanted Him to say.

Jesus said that He spoke the words He heard from His Father, and did the works He saw His Father doing. He knew of these things from the Scriptures.

Quote:

Did not Jesus say that He did not come to the earth to bring peace, but because of Him family's would become divided?

Jesus taught a message of non-violence and justice. His kingdom involves a renunciation of self. Not everyone is for these things.

Quote:

So please show me where Jesus said that He came to show us His Father's character?

I've already quoted John 1:18 a number of times. John 17 is another good place to consider.

Quote:

3Eternal life is to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, the one you sent. 4I have brought glory to you here on earth by doing everything you gave me to do. 5Now, Father, give me back the glory that I had with you before the world was created.

6You have given me some followers from this world, and I have shown them what you are like.

Jesus said He accomplished the work God gave Him to do, that he had "shown them what God was like."

Interestingly, the one who most clearly communicates this concept that I know of, in our time, is Ellen White. For example:

Quote:

He was pictured as one who could take pleasure in the sufferings of his creatures. The very attributes that belonged to the character of Satan, the evil one represented as belonging to the character of God. Jesus came to teach men of the Father, to correctly represent him before the fallen children of earth. Angels could not fully portray the character of God, but Christ, who was a living impersonation of God, could not fail to accomplish the work. The only way in which he could set and keep men right was to make himself visible and familiar to their eyes.That men might have salvation he came directly to man, and became a partaker of his nature. {ST, January 20, 1890 par. 6}...

Those who would behold this glory would be drawn to love Jesus and to love the Father whom he represented. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. In Christ was arrayed before men the paternal grace and the matchless perfections of the Father. In his prayer just before his crucifixion, he declared, "I have manifested thy name." "I have glorified thee on the earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do." When the object of his mission was attained,--the revelation of God to the world,--the Son of God announced that his work was accomplished, and that the character of the Father was made manifest to men.(ST 1/20/90;emphasis mine)

I'm quoting this because of the clarity of expression of the concepts. The last sentence, in particular, makes a nice summary: "When the object of his mission was attained,--the revelation of God to the world,--the Son of God announced that his work was accomplished, and that the character of the Father was made manifest to men."

This is all in John 17. The name in Hebrew thought represented the character. Also the glory of God is His character. Jesus glorified God by showing us what God is really like.

Quote:

Yes, Jesus said if you saw Him, then you saw His Father, but that is not talking about Character, is it?

Of course it is. What else could it be? What Jesus meant was that He was so like the Father that there was no difference in being with Him or being with His Father. To put it another way, had the Father come to earth instead of the Son, the history of His life would have been no different than the history of Christ's life.

Quote:

God demands that we obey--period!

No, this isn't His character. This is easy to see simply by considering the words of Jesus Christ. Did Jesus every say, "Obey Me! Period!" Did He present this sort of idea? No. Jesus was kind, gentle, and courteous. And reasonable too. Jesus appeals to our reason, as well as all the better parts of our being. What is it that is so appealing about Jesus Christ? It's His character. That's what's appealing about God as well.

God is a wonderful being.

Quote:

He is just and good. He knows evil but does not do evil. So what else are we to know about God's character?

What is just? What is good? Apart from revelation, these are just words. You wouldn't want to depend upon the idea of a mere fallible human being as to what justice and goodness are, would you? Jesus Christ revealed to us what goodness and justice means.

For example, He taught that if someone strikes you on the cheek, to turn the other cheek. This is divine justice. Human justice is to strike the other guy back. But God's justice is administered by mercy (Zech. 7:9).

Quote:

It appears that you want to psychoanalyze God for some reason? What happened to truth?

The truth is the truth about God, which is just what we need. Satan achieved the power he has by misrepresenting God's character. This is how he has deceived both men and angels. We need to know the truth to be set free.

[pnattmbtc]

This is the post I've been requesting a response to.

R:One does not have to look far to see how Paul would write one thing and then say something like "may it never be". As MM correctly stated, Paul talked with both side of his mouth, saying one thing and then the other. Jesus never did that.

p:Paul NEVER said the law was evil. This is a gross misrepresentation. MM was not correct about this. Paul said the law is "holy, just, and good." That's clear.

I have no idea where this prejudice against Paul comes from. It's certainly not fair to misrepresent someone's words like this.

R:Paul also said that the law was a curse--right?

p:No, wrong! Paul said:

Quote:

10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. (Galatians 3)

p:The law is not the curse, but sin! Cursed is everyone who disobeys the law. Once again, the law is "holy, just, and good," but sin is the problem, just like Romans. Paul is being consistent, and consistently misrepresented.

R:So if Paul said the law is good, then would it have been a 'good curse' to keep it?

p:No! It's a curse to disobey it! This is exactly what Paul says!

R:Didn't Paul also say it was a curse to hang on a tree? I can't see where God would have every said anything like that.

p:It's in Deuteronomy. He quoted from Moses. He didn't originate the thought.

[Dr. Rich]

pnatt wrote: "I have no idea where this prejudice against Paul comes from. It's certainly not fair to misrepresent someone's words like this."

Answer: As God said it was great for them to do as found in Rev. 2:2, all one has to do is put Paul's words to the test like we did and as found in John 14:26 and 17:20. Now you can't say you have NO idea any more.

Correction: Paul may not have said that the law itself was evil, but he did say all who keep it are under a curse. (Gal.3:10)

Clearly there are two gospels. Paul's gospel was faith in Christ and righteousness by faith, and saved by grace. In essence, Paul's gospel was all about the importance of Jesus' death, that He died for all of our sins because we can't ever become righteous and overcome sin.

Jesus' gospel was to show that the law could be kept and that we are saved by overcoming sin by obeying the words of God.

Interestingly, Adventists have co-mingled these gospels and now they have their own--the three angels messages according to EGW.

[Guest]

Rich when I saw your name I had to stick my head in here and see what kind of idiotic thing you have said now.

I keep telling you, but you don't listen: John 14:26 and 17:20 does NOT constitute any kind of test.

I may as well be talking to my dog. At least he acts like he understands, but I know he's just trying to look intelligent.

[John317]

Quote:

Twilight: Do you have any evidence that Romans 8:1 has been altered at some point?

Quote:

Robert: It doesn't fit the context....Besides look at the many versions:

The following don't include that added phrase:

American Standard Version

Bible in Basic English

New International Version

Complete Jewish Bible

Good News Translation

GOD'S WORD Translation

Holman Christian Standard

New American Standard

New Century Version

New Revised Standard

New Living Translation

Revised Standard Version

The Darby Translation

Weymouth New Testament

The reason all of the above translations read that way is that they are all based on the Critical Text of one variety or another.

The reading in the Critical Text itself is based on only a handful of Greek manuscripts. In this case, Romans 8: 1 in the above translations is based on codices Sinaiticus, Vaticanus, and D, F, G.

All the other Greek manuscripts contain the verse as it is given in the King James Version. So the KJV is more representative of the how most Christians throughout history have understood Romans 8: 1.

Among the ancient Greek manuscripts that read as the King James Version does are Codex Alexandrinus and the corrected Sinaiticus as well as the corrected Codex D. Many copies of the translations into the vulgate and syriac also read the same.

[Guest]

Clearly there are two gospels. Paul's gospel was faith in Christ and righteousness by faith, and saved by grace. In essence, Paul's gospel was all about the importance of Jesus' death, that He died for all of our sins because we can't ever become righteous and overcome sin.

NOT two different gospels! Christ taught righteousness by faith also. And so did the Old Testament.

OLD TESTAMENT

Habakkuk 2:4 ...but the just shall live by his faith.

Your phoney baloney "I believe the Old Testament" goes out the window whenever it proves you wrong.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

That word believes comes from the greek word "pistis" which means faith. The word "pistis" doesn't mean to believe something intelectually. It means to believe in something so much that you commit to it. Or make a commitment. Look it up. And then don't say I never taught you anything.

But if this is anything like all the other times, your phoney baloney "I believe the words of Jesus" will go out the window when His very words prove that your belief, that righteousness does not come by faith is wrong.

And yes you can overcome sin by the power of God, but not on your own like you believe. That will NEVER happen.

Mat 19:25,26 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

And John 15:5 also puts the kaibosh on your false belief that you can become righteous on your own, without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.