What is the Gospel?

[Musicman1228]

Robert,

You have only used quotes from EGW as 'proof' of your position. Why didn't you use Bible texts that quote Jesus Christ?

Jesus Christ as the Son of God laid Himself on the Altar of Sacrifice just as Isaac laid himself down on the Altar that he and Abraham built. Isaac was NOT going to kill himself and neither was Jesus. Abraham is the 'God' figure in the story of the sacrifice of Isaac, the only difference between the story of Abraham and Isaac and Jesus and His Father is that God the Father did not stay His own hand when He executed His son to pay the penalty for the sins of the Kingdom of Heaven. The cross did not kill Jesus. The Jews did not kill Jesus. The weight of sin in did not kill Jesus. Satan did not kill Jesus. God the Father killed His own Son WHO WAS GOD ALONG WITH HIM. God died on that Passover evening. If any part of God did not die then we are all lost because the penalty would not have been paid in full.

I for one am more than grateful that Jesus completed what He came to earth to accomplish, that is to testify to the truth. I am also grateful that He died in my place so that I can become righteous by abiding in the testimony that He gave, and become sanctified in the truth.

[Dr. Rich]

John, isn't the second death the penalty for sin? If not, then what is the penalty for sin?

[John317]

Yes, the second death is the penalty for sin. The first death is a really more like a sleep, because all will be raised again.

[John317]

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John317: Could you give the quote which says "Christ didn't die"?

Quote:

Robert: When the voice of the angel was heard saying, "Thy Father calls thee," He who had said, "I lay down my life, that I might take it again," "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up," came forth from the grave to life that was in Himself. Deity did not die. Humanity died, but Christ now proclaims over the rent sepulcher of Joseph, "I am the resurrection, and the life." In His divinity Christ possessed the power to break the bonds of death. He declares that He had life in Himself to quicken whom He will.

Where does it say "Christ did not die"? That is what Woody claims that Ellen White teaches, but that is false. Yes, she says "deity did not die." But that is not the same as saying "Christ did not die." Your quote does not say "Christ didn't die."

Please read below where Ellen White and the Bible both clearly state that Jesus Christ died.

If you mean deity did not die, then say it, but don't tell people that Ellen White teaches that "Christ didn't die," because that is false.

Read below:

Quote:

Christ died for the sins of the world that we might have an opportunity of showing to the universe loyalty to God and His law. A sermon by Ellen G. White delivered at

Armadale, Australia, November 1895

But Jesus Christ died upon the cross of Calvary.... A sermon by Ellen G. White delivered at

Armadale, Australia, November 1895

"It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us." Romans 8:34.

[Twilight]

Jesus knew what was needed. He did it. Salvation is secured for all that want it. It's a done deal. But, Jesus can do whatever He feels is necessary. And He has done it. But to say that if Jesus didn't do something there is no Hope is wrong. With Jesus ... there is always Hope. He has the power to do what is needed for us. And He has.

We can always back on the power of Jesus.

Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

1. No condemnation for those that are in Christ.

Question:

How do we know if we are "in Christ"?

2. We will walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh.

If we are walking after the flesh, we are not "in Christ".

And we are still under condemnation.

[pnattmbtc]

the only difference between the story of Abraham and Isaac and Jesus and His Father is that God the Father did not stay His own hand when He executed His son to pay the penalty for the sins of the Kingdom of Heaven. The cross did not kill Jesus. The Jews did not kill Jesus. The weight of sin in did not kill Jesus. Satan did not kill Jesus. God the Father killed His own Son WHO WAS GOD ALONG WITH HIM.

The Scriptures ascribe various factors to the death of Christ. There are places that say that man killed Christ, that Satan killed Christ, that our sins killed Christ. The one thing Scripture says did NOT kill Christ was the God the Father! The above is as backwards as is possible. Satan would like us to think that God killed Christ, as this leads to a confused view of God's character.

For one who claims to base his beliefs on the words of Jesus Christ, you certainly say a lot of things which Christ did not say! I've asked you several times for statements to back up your positions, with no response, as far as I can recall.

Where did Jesus Christ teach His Father would kill Him?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: MM

the only difference between the story of Abraham and Isaac and Jesus and His Father is that God the Father did not stay His own hand when He executed His son to pay the penalty for the sins of the Kingdom of Heaven. The cross did not kill Jesus. The Jews did not kill Jesus. The weight of sin in did not kill Jesus. Satan did not kill Jesus. God the Father killed His own Son WHO WAS GOD ALONG WITH HIM.

The Scriptures ascribe various factors to the death of Christ. There are places that say that man killed Christ, that Satan killed Christ, that our sins killed Christ. The one thing Scripture says did NOT kill Christ was the God the Father! The above is as backwards as is possible. Satan would like us to think that God killed Christ, as this leads to a confused view of God's character.

For one who claims to base his beliefs on the words of Jesus Christ, you certainly say a lot of things which Christ did not say! I've asked you several times for statements to back up your positions, with no response, as far as I can recall.

Where did Jesus Christ teach His Father would kill Him?

To be fair to MM, the analogy of Abraham and Isaac would be a fair argument to make.

To say he has no support for that view, is a bit strong in light of that.

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Woody

Jesus knew what was needed. He did it. Salvation is secured for all that want it. It's a done deal. But, Jesus can do whatever He feels is necessary. And He has done it. But to say that if Jesus didn't do something there is no Hope is wrong. With Jesus ... there is always Hope. He has the power to do what is needed for us. And He has.

We can always back on the power of Jesus.

Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

1. No condemnation for those that are in Christ.

Question:

How do we know if we are "in Christ"?

2. We will walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh.

If we are walking after the flesh, we are not "in Christ".

And we are still under condemnation.

This is why Paul say we must get out from under the Law so we can avoid being condemned. The only way to get out from under the Law is to make the Law of non-effect; that is, make it so that it does not mean anything or actually have any affect on your life. Paul said, "Where there is no law there is no violation", and this is absolutely true. The only minor problem is that Jesus never said or even hinted that the Law has no affect on our lives. This is why Paul is "the man of lawlessness", and why Jesus is the man of "lawfulness". If the Law is of no effect with respect to our salvation then why did Jesus have to die to pay our penalty under the Law?

Our 'flesh' and our 'spirit' are inexorably linked; one is no good without the other. Without our flesh we can have no spirit, our spirits do not live in an empty shell. The only way to 'die to the flesh so we can live to the spirit' is to disconnect the spirit from the flesh; which is exactly what Paul wants us to believe happens, making is possible to sin in the flesh without sinning in the spirit. The ONLY way to die to the flesh is to give up the spirit. When the spirit vanishes the body dies. This is why Paul said "to be absent in the body is to be present with the Lord". This is where the Christian concept of 'the eternal spirit' comes from. You cannot believe that when you die your spirit goes 'out like a light' and remain a Pauline Christian. So in this instance it is impossible to be a Pauline Christian and be an SDA.

[Dr. Rich]

Good question. Ok, lets investigate this.

1. Who was it that was going to kill (execute) Adam on the day Adam ate from the forbidden tree? Answer= God.

2. Who was it that was going to kill Isaac? Answer=His father.

3. Who is the only one that can kill a spiritual being? Answer=God

4. Was Jesus both human and a spiritual being? Answer=Jesus was the son of man AND the Son of God so the answer is YES!

5. Did Jesus take the place of Adam? Answer=Yes.

6. On the cross, did Jesus give Himself up to His Father? Answer=Yes.

7. On the cross, did Jesus die before they thrust the spear into Him? Answer=Yes.

8. Was Jesus' Heavenly Father present when Jesus died? Answer=Yes.

Ok, lets add all of this up and see who the 'suspect' really is.

If my investigation proves anyone other than Jesus' Heavenly Father doing the execution, then I must have messed up somewhere. Hmmmm?

[wayfinder]

Concerning #2 Abraham prepared to kill Isaac, because God ordered him to.

[Dr. Rich]

No, this is that other gospel that Paul spoke of:

YES! Robert my friend, we are in complete agreement! Yes, this is the OTHER Gospel that Paul spoke of, the one given by Jesus Christ Himself.

[Robert]

Question:

How do we know if we are "in Christ"?

2. We will walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh.

That last part has been added to the ancient manuscripts. The converted man of Romans 7's heart is in harmony with God's law, but he hasn't learned to walk in the spirit. Is there any condemnation to such an individual?

Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

Why not?

because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life [the power of the spirit] set me free [past tense] from the law of sin and death.

Note that "in Christ" holy history my humanity (your humanity) was set free from,

1] "the law of sin" (the sin nature) and

2] death

This only applies to our situation "in Christ". If it applies to the believer we have problems. Why? You still have a sinful nature and you are not immortal.

[Robert]

This is why Paul is "the man of lawlessness"

Unless you are living Christ's life who "thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself" then you are failing to live Christ's life and are therefore "falling short" of God's agape love as seen in the life of Christ. Paul tried to reach the self-righteous with this message, but didn't have much luck. Maybe you should embrace Paul....

[John317]

Quote:

pnattmbtc:

The Scriptures ascribe various factors to the death of Christ. There are places that say that man killed Christ, that Satan killed Christ, that our sins killed Christ. The one thing Scripture says did NOT kill Christ was the God the Father! The above is as backwards as is possible. Satan would like us to think that God killed Christ, as this leads to a confused view of God's character.

I agree with you-- the Father did not kill, execute, His one and only beloved Son.

Jesus did not cry out, "My God, why are you executing me?" but "My God, why have you forsaken Me?"

That is what the Father did-- He abandoned Jesus; He did not execute Him. Jesus said so Himself.

What killed Jesus? In the final analysis, it was our sins that killed Him. All of us-- humanity-- are responsible. Those men who actually betrayed Him, nailed him to the cross, taunted Him, and finally thrust the spear into His side-- they represent all of us. I know that there have been times in my life when I would have done the same thing if I had been alive at that time. When we rebel against Him, and take Satan's side, we show that we also would kill Christ if we could. The humanity that killed Him is in all of us. We share the blame, but thank God, He's forgiven us and wants us in heaven with Him. What amazing love!

[Guest]

Jesus' death only made it possible for those who choose to obey to not pay the penalty for their sins IF they repent and ask for forgiveness and become righteous in order to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

If you could become righteous on your own by outwardly keeping the law, then the pharisees would have been righteous, and Jesus couldn't have said the things about them that He did. They kept the law outwardly to a tee.

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Psa 14:2,3 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that does good, no, not one.

[Robert]

TU

[Musicman1228]

Richard said, "If you could become righteous on your own by outwardly keeping the law, then the pharisees would have been righteous, and Jesus couldn't have said the things about them that He did. They kept the law outwardly to a tee."

Actually they didn't, because their hearts were not in it. They thought of the 10 Commandments as sterile and lifeless, just a Paul does. If he didn't think this then he would not spend so much time telling us that the Law is evil and doesn't matter to our salvation. Don't you think there is a middle ground here with respect to righteousness, justice and the Kingdom of Heaven? You and Paul say that the righteousness of Jesus Christ is the only thing that counts toward your own righteousness, and Jesus says that your overcoming sin and becoming righteousness DOES matter. You continually make excuses for Paul and his double talk (speaking out of two sides of his mouth). I, on the other hand, only say exactly what Jesus Himself said, and for this I am roundly criticized as being 'anti-christ'.

King David said it well:

How can a young man keep his way pure? By guarding it according to your word. With my whole heart I seek you; let me not wander from your commandments! I have stored up your word in my heart, that I might not sin against you. Psalm 119:9-11.

How do you NOT sin against God? By storing up (abiding) the word of God, the Commandments, in your heart. Seek His words and you will find HIM.

But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you. Matt.6:33.

[John317]

Amen!

[Lutz13]

They thought of the 10 Commandments as sterile and lifeless, just a Paul does. If he didn't think this then he would not spend so much time telling us that the Law is evil and doesn't matter to our salvation.

Not sure where you got that. Paul makes it very clear that the law is good, and is there to show us that we are sick, and are in need of a Savior.

"Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good." --Romans 7:12

Lets also not forget that the law is summed up into one word. Love. Which Paul makes clear that if he knew the language of the angels, knew all the mysteries of God, and have faith to move mountains. All done without love is meaningless.

Could you please provide scripture to back up your claims?

[pnattmbtc]

Actually they didn't, because their hearts were not in it. They thought of the 10 Commandments as sterile and lifeless, just a Paul does. If he didn't think this then he would not spend so much time telling us that the Law is evil and doesn't matter to our salvation.

[pnattmbtc]

To be fair to MM, the analogy of Abraham and Isaac would be a fair argument to make.

To say he has no support for that view, is a bit strong in light of that.

You're saying that the episode of Abraham and Isaac teaches that God the Father killed Christ?

[Dr. Rich]

One does not have to look far to see how Paul would write one thing and then say something like "may it never be". As MM correctly stated, Paul talked with both side of his mouth, saying one thing and then the other. Jesus never did that.

Paul also said that the law was a curse--right? So if Paul said the law is good, then would it have been a 'good curse' to keep it? Didn't Paul also say it was a curse to hang on a tree? I can't see where God would have every said anything like that. Didn't Paul curse a couple men into the care of Satan to teach them a lesson? My God would not do that! Didn't Paul blame his god for giving him a messenger of Satan and 3 times demanded his god to remove it, but his god refused to remove it by saying something like it was given to him to keep him humble and also said "my grace is sufficient"? Hmmmm?

Lutz, No, it is not clear to me that Paul thought the law was good. If you want texts for the above, let me know.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

pnattmbtc:

The Scriptures ascribe various factors to the death of Christ. There are places that say that man killed Christ, that Satan killed Christ, that our sins killed Christ. The one thing Scripture says did NOT kill Christ was the God the Father! The above is as backwards as is possible. Satan would like us to think that God killed Christ, as this leads to a confused view of God's character.

John:I agree with you-- the Father did not kill, execute, His one and only beloved Son.

Good! Glad we agree on this.

Quote:

Jesus did not cry out, "My God, why are you executing me?" but "My God, why have you forsaken Me?"

That is what the Father did-- He abandoned Jesus; He did not execute Him. Jesus said so Himself.

He didn't really abandon Jesus, but that's how Jesus felt. In reality, God left heaven, and was with Jesus at the cross. Psalm 18 eloquently describes this. EGW references this in "Calvary" in "The Desire of Ages" where she mentions that God made darkness His pavilion.

However, having said this, it is true that God "gave Him up." God permitted Christ to be tortured and killed, so, in this sense, one could say that God "abandoned" Jesus, but I wouldn't say this, as it doesn't take account of the reality, to my way of thinking, of the fact that God was actually never closer to Jesus Christ than at the cross. EGW write that "God Himself was crucified for us," and Paul says that "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself." The atonement was a joint work.

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What killed Jesus? In the final analysis, it was our sins that killed Him. All of us-- humanity-- are responsible.

Agreed.

Quote:

Those men who actually betrayed Him, nailed him to the cross, taunted Him, and finally thrust the spear into His side-- they represent all of us.

Yes, they demonstrated the reality of sin, what any one of us, apart from grace, would be capable of doing, and would have done has we been in their place.

Quote:

I know that there have been times in my life when I would have done the same thing if I had been alive at that time.

It's good to recognize this. Even now, apart from grace, this is who we are.

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When we rebel against Him, and take Satan's side, we show that we also would kill Christ if we could.

Agreed!

Quote:

The humanity that killed Him is in all of us. We share the blame, but thank God, He's forgiven us and wants us in heaven with Him. What amazing love!

Agreed again!

[John317]

Quote:

Musicman1228:

Actually they didn't, because their hearts were not in it.

That's a good point, mm. The law of God doesn't look only on the outward man but on the heart and the mind. In other words, the law judges the thoughts and the intents of the heart. A person may appear outwardly to be obeying God's law, but God may know differently. The angels write down our very thoughts and even what we would do if we had the opportunity to do it.

This means that if we were going to gain heaven by our works, we would need to have obeyed the law perfectly as Christ obeyed it, from the time we were born, and we would also need to have perfect motives and thoughts ALL THE TIME.

Are you ready for this standard to be applied to you?

Remember that the law has no power to forgive or to give life. Those come only from God and from our Messiah in His sanctuary.

That's the only way we can obey God's law-- through His Spirit, as He writes it on our minds and on our hearts. Anyone who thinks they can do it on their own strength is not looking deeply into their own profoundly, desperately sinful condition. As Scripture says, "The heart is deceitful and desperately wicked, and who can know it?" Who can really plump the depths of its wickedness? The obvious answer is that only God can.

Quote:

King David said it well:

How can a young man keep his way pure? By guarding it according to your word. With my whole heart I seek you; let me not wander from your commandments! I have stored up your word in my heart, that I might not sin against you. Psalm 119:9-11.

How do you NOT sin against God? By storing up (abiding) the word of God, the Commandments, in your heart. Seek His words and you will find HIM.

But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you. Matt.6:33.

Yes, I agree with this, MM, but also consider 1 John 1: 5 to 2: 2: "If we say we have [present tense] no sin, we deceive ourselves and there is no truth in us. But if we confess our sins to God, he will keep his promise and do what is right: he will forgive us our sins and make us clean from all our wrongdoing. If we say that we have not sinned, we make a liar out of God and his word is not in us. I write this, my children, so that you will not sin; but if anyone does sin, we have Jesus Christ, the rightous, who pleads for us with the Father. And Christ Himself is the means by which our sins are forgiven, and not our sins only, but also the sins of all men."

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

One does not have to look far to see how Paul would write one thing and then say something like "may it never be". As MM correctly stated, Paul talked with both side of his mouth, saying one thing and then the other. Jesus never did that.

Paul NEVER said the law was evil. This is a gross misrepresentation. MM was not correct about this. Paul said the law is "holy, just, and good." That's clear.

I have no idea where this prejudice against Paul comes from. It's certainly not fair to misrepresent someone's words like this.

Quote:

Paul also said that the law was a curse--right?

No, wrong! Paul said:

Quote:

10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. (Galatians 3)

The law is not the curse, but sin! Cursed is everyone who disobeys the law. Once again, the law is "holy, just, and good," but sin is the problem, just like Romans. Paul is being consistent, and consistently misrepresented.

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So if Paul said the law is good, then would it have been a 'good curse' to keep it?

No! It's a curse to disobey it! This is exactly what Paul says!

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Didn't Paul also say it was a curse to hang on a tree? I can't see where God would have every said anything like that.

It's in Deuteronomy. He quoted from Moses. He didn't originate the thought.

I'll stop here.